Journey to a new style...

[isshinryuronin54 54]

The few times I asked intricate questions to higher dan ranks, after thinking alot myself, such as detailed questions of relative force distribution over the two sieken knuckles or questions about exact knuckle/wrist alignment when hitting a non-yielding target, or qustions about counter rotation etc... i never got any deep answers... the typical responses are "you overthink" or "just do it"... which proves not everyone with the skills has in fact reflected upon the why.... some are thinkers/analyzers..(.. other are just doers are dont appreciate seemingly unneccessary questioning or contemplation...

And I guess we don't have to necessarily know it on that level, definitely depends on the practitioner whether they gain any translatable benefits from that understanding

We all operate electric appliances, but few know a watt from a volt. We all breathe, but few know the interaction of the circulatory and pulmonary systems. MA is a "doing" kind of thing; the academic aspect of it is nice, but not a necessity.

Knowing the physics will not enable you to develop the "feel" of a technique needed to execute it well. Only a lot of practice, physical guidance from a good instructor, (and time) can do this. This may go against some's mental paradigm, which is a self-imposed barrier, not understanding that the body does not need words or numbers to "learn" how to move. IMO, they have been conditioned to be more in tune with their mind (that can often learn quickly) than their body (which usually takes longer to understand a concept). It's hard, at least for Westerners, to have patience and accept that, "It will come when you are ready."

That said, some explanation can usually be given to answer such questions you pose, enough to give some traction in aiding the student's understanding and movement - maybe won't satisfy a physicist or engineer, but good enough for the purpose at hand. Unfortunately, there are instructors who can't do even this as they don't deeply understand their art.

 

[Kung Fu Wang164 195]

MA is a "doing" kind of thing; the academic aspect of it is nice, but not a necessity. ... "It will come when you are ready."

Agree with you 100% on this. MA is for doing and not for talking. In online discussion, the topic "strategy" is easy to discuss (such as to use a groin kick to set up a face punch). The topic "principle" is too abstract for discussion.

I like to watch silent video (just doing and no talking). Unfortunately, most of the online videos just talk too much.

you "overthink" or "just do it"... .

When water fill up a container, it will overflow. When water just filled up 1/2 way and talk about overflow make no sense at all.

A: How can I spend my money if one day I'll be as rich as Bill Gates has?
B: Don't think about it now. Make yourself rich first.

 

[_Simon_164 195]

We all operate electric appliances, but few know a watt from a volt. We all breathe, but few know the interaction of the circulatory and pulmonary systems. MA is a "doing" kind of thing; the academic aspect of it is nice, but not a necessity.

Knowing the physics will not enable you to develop the "feel" of a technique needed to execute it well. Only a lot of practice, physical guidance from a good instructor, (and time) can do this. This may go against some's mental paradigm, which is a self-imposed barrier, not understanding that the body does not need words or numbers to "learn" how to move. IMO, they have been conditioned to be more in tune with their mind (that can often learn quickly) than their body (which usually takes longer to understand a concept). It's hard, at least for Westerners, to have patience and accept that, "It will come when you are ready."

That said, some explanation can usually be given to answer such questions you pose, enough to give some traction in aiding the student's understanding and movement - maybe won't satisfy a physicist or engineer, but good enough for the purpose at hand. Unfortunately, there are instructors who can't do even this as they don't deeply understand their art.

Yeah for sure, totally agree.

I guess I wasn't initially referring to just conceptual understanding, but deeper explanations and demonstrations that foster proper transmutable (is that a word?) physical ability in students. Sensei Rick Hotton is an incredible example of this, and often weaves metaphor and feeling-sense to explain and evoke certain movement qualities and teaches in that way very successfully.

 

[Buka37 4]

Hey guys.. Just getting my thoughts out there... been really struggling with my current dojo... Even looking at the post from almost exactly a year ago it's pretty much the same as now. Just not really getting much feedback, and actually had an honest conversation with my instructor regarding this, and he says genuinely when he sees my kata there is nothing at all he can think of that comes to mind to improve. I just keep thinking, surely there's more to it, I've certainly gotten heaps of feedback and ways to improve when training at the camps and with others...

So I've been invited to do my 2nd dan grading in mid October. It's been 2 years since my last grading, and as a part of this grading I'm required to know 10 specific nage waza (throwing/takedown techniques/drills). We've barely done any of them over the past 2 years. Like I've said before I'd felt like my stuff has been really neglected, and after being invited to grade I mentioned that I'm not at all confident with the takedown techniques.

So to his credit, my instructor is only now spending quite alot more time with me on them, but it still feels incredibly rushed, and I am still no where near feeling confident with them. I don't understand why we didn't work on them for 2 whole years and now they're being crammed in to tick off a box.

I'm just at a point where I'm getting increasingly frustrated with my club... and I have no idea whether to go for my 2nd dan. It feels like if I do, then after that I'll learn a few more katas and bunkai and that's it... the depth I'm looking for just isn't really there. And again I still worry about the standard of others' grading... I know I do set a really high standard but there's basic stuff being overlooked. So I wonder what my grading would even mean if I was to go for it... like what I'm being judged on.

Actually one of the previous instructors who left our club a few years ago has been popping in on some classes and it's been really nice to see him. I actually had a really good chat with him after class the other day about all of my struggles, and he very much could empathise and sort of felt a similar way about the club. He was actually very helpful in that he laid out the options I could take:

1) As I'm not getting the feedback, to ask my instructor to spend 20-30 minutes or so with me after classes on more in depth stuff, but I just don't think I'd get that, I've already sort of asked that.

2) Ask to have my 2nd dan grading postponed a few months so I feel more ready.

3) Start thinking about possibly looking elsewhere that might speak to me.


He thinks if I chose option 3 that maybe I shouldn't leave as 1st dan, but still go for my 2nd dan as I truly do deserve it.

He also said that I'm leagues above the other students and asked how I feel about not having really any higher grades to learn from, which I feel is a big thing, and something I've thought about alot... I really want to surround myself with those better than myself and just want to learn again. It's nice being the one of highest grades in ways, but not in others.

I really honestly keep flipping back and forward regarding grading. Some days I'll think I'll go for it, then others I just have no motivation to. Feels like I'm on such a precipice, almost feeling like leaving karate altogether for a bit. I have no idea what to do really. Well, there are ideas but no clear cut answer as of yet.

It's so emotional, as I really love the people and community at the dojo, and my instructor is incredibly kind and has gone out of his way in many ways, more than he needed to to help me over the years. But I don't know if it's like I'm outgrowing the dojo.. that actually feels really accurate now that I've said it out loud...


That being said, I am really loving cross-training back in Kyokushin a bit, I'm learning alot there that I've missed. I'd still like to keep that going, but still be within and learning Goju.

So that's that... just my current space I'm really really struggling with . Thanks for listening all

A man that used to teach me fifty years ago became my student decades later. A man I used to teach thirty five years ago became one of the most knowledgeable instructors I’ve ever known decades later.

The only important thing is none of us quit training.

Everyone’s journey is different and sometimes crazy. Hang in there, Simon!

 

[_Simon_164 195]

A man that used to teach me fifty years ago became my student decades later. A man I used to teach thirty five years ago became one of the most knowledgeable instructors I’ve ever known decades later.

The only important thing is none of us quit training.

Everyone’s journey is different and sometimes crazy. Hang in there, Simon!

Buka, thank you

 

[isshinryuronin54 54]

The only important thing is none of us quit training.

Why? Because that's what we do. Birds fly, fish swim. Martial artists train; a never-ending journey.

 

[Buka37 4]

Why? Because that's what we do. Birds fly, fish swim. Martial artists train; a never-ending journey.

I SO love that.

 

[Kung Fu Wang164 195]

Why? Because that's what we do. Birds fly, fish swim. Martial artists train; a never-ending journey.

Birds never stop flying. Fish never stop swimming. Human being sometime stop MA training. Why?

Old saying said, "Scholar is for the poor. Martial art is for the rich." You need to have money and time to train MA. Today, some people just don't have the money and time.

 

[isshinryuronin54 54]

Old saying said, "Scholar is for the poor. Martial art is for the rich." You need to have money and time to train MA. Today, some people just don't have the money and time.

I disagree. I have little money but can still teach. When working 12 hour days I still had 15 or 20 minutes most days to practice. Can one improve their physical skills doing this? No. But it keeps the art alive, hibernating, till one's life circumstances allow solid training again. And like the awakening bear, you wake up hungry.

 

[Kung Fu Wang164 195]

I have little money but can still teach.

"Little money" makes big difference. The term "rich" during ancient time may only equal to "not poor" in today's standard. During my teacher's daily training, he:

- tore a pair shoes daily (there were no rubber bottom shoes back then).
- ate meat in every single meal (average family may eat meat once of every 3 days).
- paid great amount tuition to learn from his teacher (it cost me about $6,000 eveytime to bring my teacher to live in my house and I did that 3 times).

During my high school summertime training, I had to walk 4 miles one way from my house to my teacher's home to train 6 hours daily because I could not afford the bus ticket. That 6 hours training plus 8 miles walking (6 days a week) made my body in excellent shape.

If you train "tree hanging" daily, you may need a new pair of socks every day. This "hip throw" solo training require to slide on the dirt ground backward. If you drill it 500 times daily, you may need a new pair of clothes bottom shoes every day.

 

[Gyakuto164 173]

We all operate electric appliances, but few know a watt from a volt. We all breathe, but few know the interaction of the circulatory and pulmonary systems. MA is a "doing" kind of thing; the academic aspect of it is nice, but not a necessity.

I can completely understand this sentiment, but if you’re academically minded, it really does. I think there are two different classes of people in this respect. For example from early in my Iai apprenticeship, I understood that the angular velocity of the cutting third of my sword blade (monouchi) in flight depends on two factors, angular displacement and change in time for that to occur. This has informed me that to vary that, at will, I either change the ‘width of the arc’ of the trajectory, or make it go faster with my physical effort. In compact or expansive kata one method is more applicable than the other. I’ve never heard or read that idea anywhere or from any teacher because swordsmen rarely know about mechanics. Some advance swordsman have come to the same idea through trial and error but many have not and the latter’s performance is lifeless and lacks depth.

Knowing the physics will not enable you to develop the "feel" of a technique needed to execute it well.

I think it will; extend the arc or don’t. Apply more force or don’t you can really feel (and hear!) when your monouchi is doing an effective job.

Only a lot of practice, physical guidance from a good instructor, (and time) can do this.

Basically spending a lot of time reinventing the wheel! Analysis allows the student to fabricate his wheel rather than trying to invent is all over again. There is benefit from repetition but it should be informed repetition. This is, I think, what poor _Simon_ feels he is currently missing; depth of explanation because his teacher doesn’t seem to have this under his belt (or doesn’t wish to share it!). It seems to me that _Simon_ would be more than able to assimilate analysis and ‘abstract’ explanation.

This may go against some's mental paradigm,which is a self-imposed barrier, not understanding that the body does not need words or numbers to "learn" how to move.

Yes but it will chime with others… I bet you don’t silently demonstrate a technique and let your students try and slavishly copy it. You likely demonstrate, give little ‘hidden tips’ and points to watch…subtle things. You might not mention 1/2mv^2 or gravitational macrolensing but you are teaching quantitatively rather than qualitatively. Those more technically minded might add something about kinetic energy, and thus mass (fixed) and velocity or how action and reaction from the ground drives the punch from a well planted back keg etc.

IMO, they have been conditioned to be more in tune with their mind (that can often learn quickly) than their body (which usually takes longer to understand a concept). It's hard, at least for Westerners, to have patience and accept that, "It will come when you are ready."

If you’ve watched the grainy black and white footage of old Karate masters like Funakoshi et al., you’ll have no doubt thought (although never vocalised!) ‘Jeez.. that is really crude/stiff/ small/weak/hilarious’. Look at the difference with modern Karate masters like André Bertel etc Their technique is an order of magnitude more accomplished and at an earlier age than Funakoshi and I’d suggest this is the consequence of sports science ideas percolating down into Karate teaching and practise and his relative youth as an 8th Dan is due to him not having to discover everything from scratch.

That said, some explanation can usually be given to answer such questions you pose, enough to give some traction in aiding the student's understanding and movement - maybe won't satisfy a physicist or engineer, but good enough for the purpose at hand. Unfortunately, there are instructors who can't do even this as they don't deeply understand their art.

My (occasional) Iaido teacher is an intellectual. He’s has a masters in musicology, so has an analytical bent and can make the intricacies of Iai lucid to those who are able to understand. He’s very popular with students at seminars because he explains what to do rather than repeatedly shout “MO ICHI DO’! Those who like to do a thousands of mindless reps because they think it’ll burn the techniques into their brain (cerebellum for those who like detail) are repelled by him, those who gain a great deal from analysis and explanation, gravitate toward him. and his dojo membership type reflects that!

 

[Fungus2]

The topic "principle" is too abstract for discussion.

I like to watch silent video (just doing and no talking). Unfortunately, most of the online videos just talk too much.

I agree! But alots of people also talk too much, without balancing with the apprioriate amount of thinking.

I don't advocate "talking" vs "doing", I more advocate contemplation over "doing-witout-contemplation". Contemplation is to your understanding, what rooting is to your strikes.

Too much talking disturbs focus, often less is more whenit comes to talking.

When water fill up a container, it will overflow. When water just filled up 1/2 way and talk about overflow make no sense at all.

A: How can I spend my money if one day I'll be as rich as Bill Gates has?
B: Don't think about it now. Make yourself rich first.

The perspective i had in mind can be illustrated by an Einstein quote:

“The important thing is not to stop questioning. Curiosity has its own reason for existence. One cannot help but be in awe when he contemplates the mysteries of eternity, of life, of the marvelous structure of reality. It is enough if one tries merely to comprehend a little of this mystery each day."
-- A.Einstein

Why? Because that's what we do. Birds fly, fish swim. Martial artists train; a never-ending journey.

And "Inquiring minds" keeps questioning; a never-ending - but constantly adapting - journey.

 

[Gyakuto164 173]

Yes, it’s not an either/or thing. Good teaching should incorporate both ideas, pitched to the audience to whom it’s being delivered.

Too much talking disturbs focus, often less is more whenit comes to talking.

During Iai training from time to time the teacher shouts ‘SHUGO’ (meeting), we all gather and he gives us ‘too much talking’ and then we split off and put into practise, what we have learned. It works very well.

 

[isshinryuronin54 54]

Those who like to do a thousands of mindless reps because they think it’ll burn the techniques into their brain

It'll just burnOUT their brain.

There is benefit from repetition but it should be informed repetition.

Mindless repetition is a waste of time and energy. Each rep series should be a deliberate exercise stressing at least one of the following: Ground-leg interaction, hip movement, relaxation/tensing, intent, breathing, proper form, and the list goes on. This is something the student must do themselves. IMO, this is the main factor that allows one to advance their ability more effectively than those who simply do it "moo ichido" (one more time).

you likely demonstrate, give little ‘hidden tips’ and points to watch…subtle things.

Absolutely. This is what makes a good instructor, even if they don't know physics.

often weaves metaphor and feeling-sense to explain and evoke certain movement qualities and teaches in that way very successfully.

As you may have seen in my posts, I use a lot of metaphors, feeling that this connection to something one can already relate to bridges the gap between abstract concept and technique, bypassing lengthy explanation. They're also fun to use!

If you’ve watched the grainy black and white footage of old Karate masters like Funakoshi et al., you’ll have no doubt thought (although never vocalised!) ‘Jeez.. that is really crude/stiff/ small/weak/hilarious’

I've seen the opposite from Funakoshi. It's important to realize that the old masters did not share the modern evaluation/standards of forms or sport-oriented technique. And they seldom showed off in public.

 

[Kung Fu Wang164 195]

Mindless repetition is a waste of time and energy. Each rep series should be a deliberate exercise stressing at least one of the following: Ground-leg interaction, hip movement, relaxation/tensing, intent, breathing, proper form, and the list goes on.

If you have cross trained 3 different MA system A, B, and C. All 3 MA systems have "front kick". When you drill your "front kick", are you doing "front kick" from

- style A. or
- style B, or
- style C?

In your opinion, what should be the difference between

- Karate front kick,
- TKD front kick,
- MT front kick,
- long fist front kick,
- Taiji front kick?

 

[windwalker099164 13]

In your opinion, what should be the difference between

- Karate front kick,
- TKD front kick,
- MT front kick,
- long fist front kick,
- Taiji front kick?

Should be interesting...

Can you do each of the kicks listed, or do you feel they're all basically the same?
For starters...as I was taught in CMA, there is no chamber prior to initiating the kick.

 

[Kung Fu Wang164 195]

Should be interesting...

Can you do each of the kicks listed, or do you feel they're all basically the same?
For starters...as I was taught in CMA, there is no chamber prior to initiating the kick.

I feel they're all basically the same. I kick the same way when I train Taij. I also kick the same way when I trained Karate.

This is the long fist front kick.

1. Raise knee as high as you can (chamber).
2. Raise your toes (modern Wushu doesn't do this).
3. Kick out your foot as a downward curve (this is why chamber is required. without it, you may kick upward curve instead).

 

[isshinryuronin54 54]

In your opinion, what should be the difference between

- Karate front kick,
- TKD front kick,
- MT front kick,
- long fist front kick,
- Taiji front kick?

In general, these kicks will conform to the systems' general methodology and fighting strategy. Self-defense kicks can differ from those used in sport. A kick from one system may not be compatible with another and probably can lead to disaster. Within each of these systems there can be variation according to the branch. IMO, main elements distinguishing them are initial chambering position, power source, when the power is applied, and recovery (rechambering).

Karate (and Muy Thai?) typically chambers the kicking foot to the knee of the supporting leg before and after the kick. Shotokan will put some hip power into it making it a power move with penetration (perhaps much like TKD and Kyokushin). Okinawan front kicks are snapping; fast out and fast back to the rechamber, power being applied at the very end, less penetration targeting lower vulnerable points to set up a continuing attack.

The long fist kick as seen in KFW's video chambers near the calf, has no snap, more of an arcing motion and no rechambering, the foot dropping right down into a step. Most Muy Thai kicks I've seen are a front foot jab that's often used as a defensive move to interrupt an attack.

Not too knowledgeable in all these arts, my comments are not a complete discussion and are simply based on observation and perception. What I am sure of is the great variety of front kicks reflect their style's strategy of movement and fighting, designed to harmoniously work in context within the particular system.

 

[Fungus2]

the great variety of front kicks reflect their style's strategy of movement and fighting, designed to harmoniously work in context within the particular system.

Agree completely with this, and this applies of course to most other techhniques, kicks and punches. Within kihon, ie the variations of the techniques that are "named", there are perhaps a couple of them in our style. But when it comes to application and sparring, there are more versions, that aren't written down on curriculium. But that sometimes ARE taught by instructors in sparring class. Then we are often taught that kihon techniques are ideal reference techniques that are in the kihon, but the are often not optimal for free fighting. Many techiques end up beeing variations as we as hybrids of eithre kicks, that are common in fighting but each figther tend to adapt to personal variations that suits his body mechanics better. If one manages to find and oddball hybrid that is often useful as it may required the oddball defense that isnt commonly trained in kihon as well.

Regarding repetitions, when i train on the heavy bag on my own, I train mostly these oddball variatons, which I know I would get "comments" on if i did them like that on gradings. But then, I dont first of all train for gradings I traing to perfect my preferred techniques. It's how i see it. When I train on the bag i dont just make a movement i mentalise that i hit something specific, say lower ribs, or liver just below elbow etc... Training non-contextual movements is not as inspiring for mer persoanlly.

 

[Fungus2]

If you have cross trained 3 different MA system A, B, and C. All 3 MA systems have "front kick". When you drill your "front kick", are you doing "front kick" from

- style A. or
- style B, or
- style C?

One of the difference that makes the variations IMO at least is:
Suppose I aim for the solar plexuts or stomach just below the ribs.

- the angle of the opponents torso relative to me; this determins if i curve the kick or not. Curvig usually implies a mawashi/front hybrid.

- the distance, are they running into me? or running awat? Here do i need a stop kick (strong rooting) or do it need to jump or step into the kick?

- is non telegrapg or power priority+

just this basic scenarios along (regardless of what club you belong to) gives rives to many variations. And if you train them later, I'd train them - one by one.