Joe Rogan smack talking TMA's like kung fu

[JowGaWolf]

OR I could ask my Aikido Instructor, but i dont need to ask anyone to know Aikido is a grappling style

lol True. Well there's the answer. Aikido is a grappling style coming from the mouth of someone who does Aikido. Works for me.

 

[Hanzou]

Absolutely Not. No.
Uke's left hand is grappling the tori's right wrist/forearm.
In your .gif image... And a hook on a rope and a wall are both grappling each other. Without the wall, there is nothing to attach to.

Without the Tori's arm... There is no place for the hook to start a grapple.

Let us see the exact same thing happen in the gif without the Tori' arm being present in the Uke's grab.
Phisics prevent it from happening.

Like this?

Next,
Less than 5 percent. Easily. I will try and make some phone calls and get a solid answer. But which Aikido system do you want an answer from?

Don't all Aikido systems have some level of commonality?

A GI throw is a grapple, for a moment, in the same way grabbing at a moving train is one.

But the train isn't grappling anything. We wouldn't say the train is performing grappling because its moving in a straight line.

Fourthly, no touch is a mystery to me. Until I can do it, I cannot explain it, I have suspicions but I dont know.

Could it be energy based? Is it grappling?
It could be.. It might not be... I don't know.

No touch certainly doesn't exist in Judo, Bjj, Sambo, Wrestling, etc.

But it is not enough of the Aikido art as practiced by at least 75% to 80% of Aikidoka to even matter.

Most know nothing of it first hand, they are seeing it in videos, or hearing about it second hand, presumably like yourself.

As such, it is an outlier, and does not define Aikido itself for the purpose of our discussion. If it never existed, or if it does exist... Aikido it neither makes nor breaks.

Well the person in those vids doing the no-touch stuff is Nobuyuki Watanabe, and he's one of the head instructors at the Aikikai Honbu Dojo in Japan. So its not like he's some kook who is part of a splinter group of Aikido. He's one of the direct disciples of Ueshiba, and is an 8th dan.

And of course Ueshiba himself performed such techniques as well;

But that stuff is certainly not grappling.

 

[Tez3]

Seems to me that there's contact here

Perhaps the person who did the first video missed something out, accidentally on purpose perhaps ?

 

[TSDTexan]

Like this?







Don't all Aikido systems have some level of commonality?



But the train isn't grappling anything. We wouldn't say the train is performing grappling because its moving in a straight line.




No touch certainly doesn't exist in Judo, Bjj, Sambo, Wrestling, etc.



Well the person in those vids doing the no-touch stuff is Nobuyuki Watanabe, and he's one of the head instructors at the Aikikai Honbu Dojo in Japan. So its not like he's some kook who is part of a splinter group of Aikido. He's one of the direct disciples of Ueshiba, and is an 8th dan.

And of course Ueshiba himself performed such techniques as well;

But that stuff is certainly not grappling.

Find a way to email him, or an aid. Ask him. I can't speak on no touch. I can guess. But I don't know how it works.

Do magnets grab and push? Is there a type of energy the body produces that is similar?

I know that my palms produce some kind of field and if I keep my muscles relaxed, one hand's field pushes(when I move the other hand towards it) the other like two magnets of the same pole.

I have been told that I should have been an internal stylist because some dont develop that sensitivity for years.

All I know is that this phenomenon of the palm fields does me no practical help from a self defense perspective. It doesn't help me punch faster or harder.
It doesn't repel objects, or attract them like the Force from Star wars.

Frankly, its of no practical use.

Perhaps these Aiki guys after many decades have attained mastery of these fields of the body the way a marathon runner, or a gymnast has control over their muscles.

The question I have... If it real... How do you train it until it can be weaponized for the MA.... And will a guy like this one in your video ever take a Bas Ruttan for an Uke at a seminar?

Because it would be nice to see it get publicly validated, and taken away from Yellow Bamboo and Co.

Bas has said if he could be thrown around he would sign up as a student....

But no touch has no bearing on whether Aikido is a grappling art or not.

 

[Hanzou]

Find a way to email him, or an aid. Ask him.

For what?

I'm not making a judgement one way or the other. I'm simply displaying Aikido techniques that Aikidoka consider to be a part of their system, yet are different from grappling. From what I've read, people in the Aikikai believe that no-touch ki techniques are as real as cross collar chokes in Bjj.

Who am I to argue? I'm simply pointing out that that stuff doesn't exist in grappling. We actually have to grapple to throw someone.

 

[Hanzou]

Seems to me that there's contact here

Perhaps the person who did the first video missed something out, accidentally on purpose perhaps ?

To be fair, the no-touch vids are a lot more recent.

He clearly advanced to Ueshiba levels of ki mastery in the last 20 something years.

 

[Drose427]

For what?

I'm not making a judgement one way or the other. I'm simply displaying Aikido techniques that Aikidoka consider to be a part of their system, yet are different from grappling. From what I've read, people in the Aikikai believe that no-touch ki techniques are as real as cross collar chokes in Bjj.

Who am I to argue? I'm simply pointing out that that stuff doesn't exist in grappling. We actually have to grapple to throw someone.

so do aikidoka doing the other 98% of techniques......

 

[Hanzou]

so do aikidoka doing the other 98% of techniques......

I disagree. There's quite a few Aikido techniques that are based on an opponent grabbing you, and you doing a series of movements to get them off of you. Many of those techniques don't require you to actually touch your opponent.

So for comparison's sake, if someone went to tackle you and you moved out of the way at just the right second to cause them to crash into a bunch of chairs, did you just perform grappling? I would say no.

 

[TSDTexan]

I disagree. There's quite a few Aikido techniques that are based on an opponent grabbing you, and you doing a series of movements to get them off of you. Many of those techniques don't require you to actually touch your opponent.

So for comparison's sake, if someone went to tackle you and you moved out of the way at just the right second to cause them to crash into a bunch of chairs, did you just perform grappling? I would say no.

So when bars, pins, locks and breaks happen... No grappling was involved?

Absurd.

Bringing up no touch as an argument that aikido isn't a grappling art hurts your case more than it hurts mine.

Its like trying to argue that whack-a-mole isn't an impact game of sport because the handles are made out of foam rubber.

In essence... Red Herring.

And time spent by you in Aikido learning this first hand would disabuse you of that notion. I actually took Aikido on a joking dare. I thought it was fake. I found out otherwise.

Perhaps you banging on Aikido as not grappling is really contempt prior to investigation.


But I will leave it alone.

 

[Drose427]

I disagree. There's quite a few Aikido techniques that are based on an opponent grabbing you, and you doing a series of movements to get them off of you. Many of those techniques don't require you to actually touch your opponent.

So for comparison's sake, if someone went to tackle you and you moved out of the way at just the right second to cause them to crash into a bunch of chairs, did you just perform grappling? I would say no.

Aikido Techniques - All the Defense and Attack Moves

List of Aikido Techniques with Instructions - Black Belt Wiki

Lots of grappling in aikido

I mean, its built upon join locks and restraints.....

Youre picking and choosing because you dont want it put in the same group as BJJ...

What you're doing is the equivalent of someone watchy royce gracie slap and tickle to set up subs and saying BJJ isnt a grappling style, because he slapped...

 

[Hanzou]

So when bars, pins, locks and breaks happen... No grappling was involved?

Absurd.

Where did I say that? Grappling exists in non-grappling styles. Doesn't make the styles themselves a grappling art.

Bringing up no touch as an argument that aikido isn't a grappling art hurts your case more than it hurts mine.

Its like trying to argue that whack-a-mole isn't an impact game of sport because the handles are made out of foam rubber.

In essence... Red Herring.

I posted the no-touch stuff in response to your earlier argument that the opponent needed to grab the Aikidoka's arm in order for a throw to be performed. Clearly, no touch shows that an Aikidoka can throw someone without either party touching them at all.

I'm curious why you think that no-touch hurts my argument. Isn't no-touch a part of Aikido?

 

[Hanzou]

Lots of grappling in aikido

And lots of this too;



Where's the grappling on the defender's part?

I mean, its built upon join locks and restraints.....

And a lot of other stuff.

Youre picking and choosing because you don't want it put in the same group as BJJ...

What you're doing is the equivalent of someone watchy royce gracie slap and tickle to set up subs and saying BJJ isnt a grappling style, because he slapped...

Well the difference is that just about everything in Bjj involves grabbing on the part of the practitioner. The same applies to Wrestling, Sambo, Judo, Shaui jiao, Luta Livre, etc. Again, I have to grab my opponent in order throw them, or take them down.

You simply can't say the same about Aikido.

 

[TSDTexan]

Where did I say that? Grappling exists in non-grappling styles. Doesn't make the styles themselves a grappling art.



I posted the no-touch stuff in response to your earlier argument that the opponent needed to grab the Aikidoka's arm in order for a throw to be performed. Clearly, no touch shows that an Aikidoka can throw someone without either party touching them at all.

I'm curious why you think that no-touch hurts my argument. Isn't no-touch a part of Aikido?

I dont know what the no touch stuff is.
Therefore I dont know if those are throws or hypnosis of a sort... Or even acting.

I can say from my time on Aikido mats it was very hands on, grabbing, pulling, seizing. Just like my time in a Judo hall.
Different techniques that outwork from different principles... But very grabbing, pulling, tripping, throwing, pinning, choking... Very grappling.

No touch hurts your argument, because it is raising an unknown variable to debate in known varibles, and it is a remote and irrelevant issue. To raise a minor and bring it to the majors, while remaining silent on the majors.. Hurts your case.

 

[TSDTexan]

And lots of this too;
Well the difference is that just about everything in Bjj involves grabbing on the part of the practitioner. The same applies to Wrestling, Sambo, Judo, Shaui jiao, Luta Livre, etc. Again, I have to grab my opponent in order throw them, or take them down.
.

Are you absolutely certain you want to stand by this statement?

Judo has a number of ways to put a guy on his butt without having to grab them. Yonezuka ADVOCATES the use of ASHIBARAI (foot sweep) without GRABBING as the BEST overall and SAFEST (for you) method of slamming someone on their keyster.

I can shoulder bump, and foot sweep with just Judo... And have a guy on his butt in pain. You act like only Aikido can do takedowns without grabbing, and also you act like almost all of the Aikido tech is no tori grabbing.

Smh

 

[ballen0351]

I disagree. There's quite a few Aikido techniques that are based on an opponent grabbing you, and you doing a series of movements to get them off of you. .

How do you know how long have you trained in Aikido?

 

[Flying Crane]

Here's the thing. aikido is aikido. It's based on older jiujitsu, but is its own thing. Why would anybody care whether or not someone like hanzou is satisfied with a definition? The mind is boggled.

 

[Xue Sheng103]

Here's the thing. aikido is aikido. It's based on older jiujitsu, but is its own thing. Why would anybody care whether or not someone like hanzou is satisfied with a definition? The mind is boggled.

sadly I can only agree with you once...... but BINGO.... you got it...

 

[Hanzou]

I dont know what the no touch stuff is.
Therefore I dont know if those are throws or hypnosis of a sort... Or even acting.

It's considered a type of throw.

I can say from my time on Aikido mats it was very hands on, grabbing, pulling, seizing. Just like my time in a Judo hall.
Different techniques that outwork from different principles... But very grabbing, pulling, tripping, throwing, pinning, choking... Very grappling.

No touch hurts your argument, because it is raising an unknown variable to debate in known varibles, and it is a remote and irrelevant issue. To raise a minor and bring it to the majors, while remaining silent on the majors.. Hurts your case.

Again, it was simply brought up because you said that you couldn't perform an Aikido throw without touch. One of the top Aikidoka in the world appears to believe otherwise.

 

[Hanzou]

Are you absolutely certain you want to stand by this statement?

Judo has a number of ways to put a guy on his butt without having to grab them. Yonezuka ADVOCATES the use of ASHIBARAI (foot sweep) without GRABBING as the BEST overall and SAFEST (for you) method of slamming someone on their keyster.

Would you happen to have a vid of this technique? I'd be interested in seeing it.

I can shoulder bump, and foot sweep with just Judo... And have a guy on his butt in pain. You act like only Aikido can do takedowns without grabbing, and also you act like almost all of the Aikido tech is no tori grabbing.

Where did I say any of that?

 

[JowGaWolf]

Like this?







Don't all Aikido systems have some level of commonality?



But the train isn't grappling anything. We wouldn't say the train is performing grappling because its moving in a straight line.




No touch certainly doesn't exist in Judo, Bjj, Sambo, Wrestling, etc.



Well the person in those vids doing the no-touch stuff is Nobuyuki Watanabe, and he's one of the head instructors at the Aikikai Honbu Dojo in Japan. So its not like he's some kook who is part of a splinter group of Aikido. He's one of the direct disciples of Ueshiba, and is an 8th dan.

And of course Ueshiba himself performed such techniques as well;

But that stuff is certainly not grappling.

Why to you pick the worst examples of a style and use it to represent the whole of a fighting system?