Its about the journey not the destination

[Gnarlie]

Just what do you mean by spoon fed? If you mean that, by spoon feeding, somebody else is taking the test for you or helping you with the test than from my experience, you can't be spoon fed in the martial arts. All the places where I've trained you have to take the test yourself without help if you want to pass. If by being spoon fed you mean that a person is told that they aren't behaving properly than I can see, to some extent, that a person should know that beforehand.

I mean the latter, although I also wouldn't spoon feed people technique, for example if you are taught different types of steps and then separately taught back kick, then it is up to you to experiment and practice steps with back kick. It shouldn't just be on the instructor to spoon feed every last detail, the student has to put some experimentation and thought in too.

In lots of dojos he might not last. Students who act like that are sometimes expelled and banned. So if he was at a dojo that I was running I probably would've expelled him far before he got to the grading before first dan. As it is, though, such an attitude would probably hinder your skill progression in the martial arts. With his problems I don't see how he would've ever gotten to be at the level he was which you said was one notch below black belt. As its been posted here before, trying too hard and becoming too uptight can ruin your technique. So I don't see how he would've developed the skill level of 1st dan or anywhere close to it if he was like that.

As is often the case, he was a great physical talent, but with some issues beside that. We were willing to take him up to 1st Keup based on technique alone, and the fact that generally day to day he was fine. But the temper had to come under control for 1st dan.

Dead people can be just as influential, if not more so, than living people. Just because somebody is dead doesn't mean you should dismiss them.

Absolutely they can. I just think Bruce Lee is not particularly that relevant to the discussion. He was passionate about his training, yes, but that is not the sort of passion that I meant, which is the negative kind. The kind that drives stalkers, or causes crimes of passion, for example. Where emotion overtakes a person's actions.

As far as emotion is concerned, its fine to have emotion as long as you control it and not the other way around. When you're in control, emotion can be used to great advantage. Take for instance fear, a very strong emotion. You could say fear is a fire burning inside you, if you control it than it will make you hot, if it controls you it will burn you up. Actually it was from Rocky V that I got that but the concept is true. You mention the importance of self control and that's where controlling your emotions comes in. Strong emotions are fine as long as you have the self control to handle them.

That's my point. And if that self control is not there, one cannot expect to progress.

The problem with that is once you do become a black belt or a master than what? Black belt and master are just milestones along the journey as I said before in this thread. Also, I think a white belt focusing too much on the black belt is getting ahead of themselves, much like the parable about the student who was told the harder he worked at becoming a master swordsman the longer it would take him and was told, "When there is one eye fixed upon your destination, there is only one eye left with which to find the way." A white belt should be focusing on whatever belt is next up such as yellow belt as it is in my style. As for the black belt, you cross that bridge when you get to it. Its important however, that when you do get to that bridge, that you cross it.

Exactly. I almost want to say 'forget that goal. Look at this kick that we are training right now. Try to get that right. If you focus on what you are learning right now, black belt will happen. Master will happen.' This kind of person I would apply the testing brakes to, to help them realise that their training now is important, not their strutting around in a black piece of cloth later.

On a side note, how do you feel about academic students who since day 1 in school has a mantra that, "I want straight As," and/or "I want a Ph. D."? How about college students who take a heavier than usual coarse load because they want a degree sooner? I've known students that've done that.

It is different. It's not a physical set of skills being developed, and more importantly, martial arts encourages behavioural and attitude change and development as part of its core. Academic study does not.

Most of your students must be good students than. I also like to go way above and beyond the standards of the tests instead of just scraping by as some people do.

They are good. Those that aren't, don't test. Or they fail. Depending on how self aware they are, and what kind of message might get through. I strongly believe in keeping a higher standard. When you are sending 1st Keups to a national grading with 150 other 1st Keups from all over the country, you want your guys to stand out. For the right reasons.

 

[Tez3]

On a side note, how do you feel about academic students who since day 1 in school has a mantra that, "I want straight As," and/or "I want a Ph. D."? How about college students who take a heavier than usual coarse load because they want a degree sooner? I've known students that've done that.

This is likely to have nothing to do with 'passion' and all to do with money. University courses cost money, a lot of money and students can come out of university with huge debts, they need to be finished as soon as they can to start earning to pay off them. Going to university is about your career, about having qualifications that enable you to get work and earn enough for you to live, marry perhaps, have a family it cannot be compared to training for a black belt.

 

[PhotonGuy]

I mean the latter, although I also wouldn't spoon feed people technique, for example if you are taught different types of steps and then separately taught back kick, then it is up to you to experiment and practice steps with back kick. It shouldn't just be on the instructor to spoon feed every last detail, the student has to put some experimentation and thought in too.

Well yes, from my experience you do have to find out what works best for you, what techniques you like the best, ect. I had this one instructor who said that if he was to teach a student exactly how he fought that he would at best produce an imperfect clone of himself. So you have to find out what works best for you and how to best incorporate what you've been taught. However, I have heard of some styles and instructors that do spoon feed you in that they have a very rigid training regime and you're expected to do exactly as they tell you which they do down to the letter.

As is often the case, he was a great physical talent, but with some issues beside that. We were willing to take him up to 1st Keup based on technique alone, and the fact that generally day to day he was fine. But the temper had to come under control for 1st dan.

Well as I said, such a student wouldn't last in any place of mine, not if he had the issues you described.

Absolutely they can. I just think Bruce Lee is not particularly that relevant to the discussion. He was passionate about his training, yes, but that is not the sort of passion that I meant, which is the negative kind. The kind that drives stalkers, or causes crimes of passion, for example. Where emotion overtakes a person's actions.

Well as I pointed out, the thing is for you to control your emotions not the other way around. If you do so you can harness them and use them to your best advantage.

That's my point. And if that self control is not there, one cannot expect to progress.

Exactly. I almost want to say 'forget that goal. Look at this kick that we are training right now. Try to get that right. If you focus on what you are learning right now, black belt will happen. Master will happen.' This kind of person I would apply the testing brakes to, to help them realise that their training now is important, not their strutting around in a black piece of cloth later.

Well that's what a beginner student is probably most interested in, learning all the great new stuff. On my first day as a white belt I was very excited about learning the reverse punch, the first technique I was taught. I wasn't so concerned with the black belt at the time since that was way ahead and I was just absorbing all the material I was being presented with. However, I don't see why somebody whose one notch under a black belt, in lots of styles that would be a black belt, shouldn't be concerned with the black belt if that's what they want to get.

They are good. Those that aren't, don't test. Or they fail. Depending on how self aware they are, and what kind of message might get through. I strongly believe in keeping a higher standard. When you are sending 1st Keups to a national grading with 150 other 1st Keups from all over the country, you want your guys to stand out. For the right reasons.

Your place must be part of a much bigger organization if your students are sent to a place with 150 other people who are all testing. If I ran such a place I would want my students to stand out, but if Im taking the test, I want to stand out among all the other people taking it.

 

[PhotonGuy]

So this thread has died down a bit but some people have made some good points, particularly Gnarlie about not letting your emotions control you and about not to be overly obsessed with high belts when you first start out but rather to be focusing on what is being taught to you at the here and now. However, I don't see a problem with focusing on whatever belt is next up for you, and that includes a higher belt if you're up at that level.

 

[Xue Sheng]

However, I don't see a problem with focusing on whatever belt is next up for you, and that includes a higher belt if you're up at that level.

Then focus on it if you want and I won't, just like I want...... the end

 

[PhotonGuy]

Then focus on it if you want and I won't, just like I want...... the end

Your choice. And besides, do your styles even use rank?

 

[Instructor]

Before I was a black belt it really mattered to me. After I got my first black belt it wasn't such a big deal anymore. I've earned a couple more since then and I rarely even take it out of the bag anymore.
I guess for me the part of martial arts I cherish the most at this point is the strong friendships I've made, the great memories of training with them, and the pure joy of doing the art. However much I've learned is as nothing compared to what I still need to learn.

 

[Xue Sheng]

Your choice. And besides, do your styles even use rank?

They use to, and I didn't really care about ranks then either. However the styles I train now have no rank and I still don't care about rank

 

[Instructor]

One thing I will say is that in many systems black belt is the minimum rank to teach others and getting the ability to teach others is a HUGE thing.

 

[Gnarlie]

So this thread has died down a bit but some people have made some good points, particularly Gnarlie about not letting your emotions control you and about not to be overly obsessed with high belts when you first start out but rather to be focusing on what is being taught to you at the here and now. However, I don't see a problem with focusing on whatever belt is next up for you, and that includes a higher belt if you're up at that level.

Always focus on what you are doing now and the next belt comes as an automatic by-product at some point. Always focus on the belt itself and it may never come.

 

[PhotonGuy]

They use to, and I didn't really care about ranks then either. However the styles I train now have no rank and I still don't care about rank

Well you're not the only one here who has that position. If that is your position, though, than some of the stuff I say would not apply to you.

 

[PhotonGuy]

One thing I will say is that in many systems black belt is the minimum rank to teach others and getting the ability to teach others is a HUGE thing.

At my place, and at lots of places, you start teaching as a brown belt, just as an assistant though.

 

[PhotonGuy]

Always focus on what you are doing now and the next belt comes as an automatic by-product at some point. Always focus on the belt itself and it may never come.

Agreed but you still do need to have some focus on the next belt. At the very least you need to know what the requirements are for the next belt and what you need to work on to meet those requirements.

 

[Xue Sheng]

Well you're not the only one here who has that position. If that is your position, though, than some of the stuff I say would not apply to you.

which is why I typed

Then focus on it if you want and I won't, just like I want...... the end

 

[Gnarlie]

Agreed but you still do need to have some focus on the next belt. At the very least you need to know what the requirements are for the next belt and what you need to work on to meet those requirements.

That's not necessarily true, your instructor needs to know the requirements. You just need to concentrate on what you are being taught.

 

[PhotonGuy]

which is why I typed

Then focus on it if you want and I won't, just like I want...... the end

OK good, and happy training.

 

[PhotonGuy]

That's not necessarily true, your instructor needs to know the requirements. You just need to concentrate on what you are being taught.

Obviously your instructor will know the requirements since he sets them. Its the student who needs to know so they will know what they need to work on. As for concentrating on what you're being taught, unless you're taking entirely private lessons its impossible for classes to be custom tailored to each student's needs as there are multiple students each with their own strengths and weaknesses, each with their own areas where they need work. Therefore sometimes it makes sense for a student to ask the Sensei about specific requirements or areas where they're lacking.

Case in point, there was a high brown belt student at my place who wanted to test for his black belt. He asked the Sensei about it and the Sensei said he wasn't ready and to work more on his round kick. So he didn't test that time and he worked on his round kick as the Sensei said he should and he tested the next time around and passed and got a black belt. So that student did the smart thing, he used his mouth and he then followed the Sensei's advice and he worked hard and that way he was able to get his black belt, makes sense doesn't it?

 

[drop bear]

Always focus on what you are doing now and the next belt comes as an automatic by-product at some point. Always focus on the belt itself and it may never come.

How do you avoid stagnation without goal setting? I mean you could just goal set off your own bat but when there is a system in place it would be like trying to reinvent the wheel.

 

[Gnarlie]

I am and was able to avoid stagnation because a good instructor teaches the right thing to the right person at the right time, in a progressive manner. Groups are split by grade and ability.

Students don't know what they don't know, and for that reason often are not in a position to set goals or ask the right questions to take them where they need to go.

There's no problem with asking questions in general, or asking for specific feedback. But the question 'what do I need to focus on to get the next belt', misses the point of training, which is the training itself and the abilities it develops, and not the belt itself.

Focusing on the belt itself shows a lack of maturity in training approach and a preoccupation with status. Fine at yellow belt but undesirable in a more senior grade.

 

[Gnarlie]

Walking a path is not defined by the milestones you pass on the way, but what you experience on the path between them.

A milestone might be a reason to briefly celebrate, rest and take stock, but no more.

Asking 'what do I need to do' is like asking 'how many steps are left to the next milestone?'. Effectively it makes you the child in the back seat asking 'are we nearly there yet?'.

The instructor's counter question, which they may or may not ask out loud, is 'Why do you ask, is this trip boring you?'