Its about the journey not the destination

[Gnarlie]

Early on, we rush from milestone to milestone, telling the world and ourselves 'look how much ground I have covered'. Later, we realise the path is an ascending spiral which has no end, and we slow down and start to enjoy the scenery, breathing, and the act of putting one foot in front of the other.

 

[PhotonGuy]

I am and was able to avoid stagnation because a good instructor teaches the right thing to the right person at the right time, in a progressive manner. Groups are split by grade and ability.

At my place, people of all different ranks train together and do the same drills although when you do partner drills you would usually have a partner whose of the same or close to the same rank as you. The exception would be katas where for each belt there is a specific kata you learn for advancement and each time you go up a belt you learn the kata for the next belt.

Students don't know what they don't know, and for that reason often are not in a position to set goals or ask the right questions to take them where they need to go.

There's no problem with asking questions in general, or asking for specific feedback. But the question 'what do I need to focus on to get the next belt', misses the point of training, which is the training itself and the abilities it develops, and not the belt itself.

Focusing on the belt itself shows a lack of maturity in training approach and a preoccupation with status. Fine at yellow belt but undesirable in a more senior grade.

As for students not knowing what they don't know that's true enough at the lower belts but at higher belts when a student knows so much more than when they first stated out, not so much. If anything, I would say more questions are necessary at the higher belts when there is more knowledge to absorb and more stuff you've got to know. Its at the higher belts when you realize just how much you don't know so that's the time to start asking.

And focus should be first and foremost on the training but there is nothing wrong with wanting the next belt and having that as a goal, much like an academic student should focus first and foremost on the material and the studying but still wants to get an A, even if that's not their primary focus.

Asking 'what do I need to do' is like asking 'how many steps are left to the next milestone?'. Effectively it makes you the child in the back seat asking 'are we nearly there yet?'.

The instructor's counter question, which they may or may not ask out loud, is 'Why do you ask, is this trip boring you?'

Asking what you need to do to get to the next belt is so that you know that you're headed in the right direction. Its not the same as the child in the back seat asking if we're nearly there yet, that would be more like a student asking their sensei when they're going to test which some people have said is disrespectful. As some people have pointed out for questions such as, "When am I going to test?" the answer would be, "when you're ready." Or, "when am I going to get my next belt?" the answer would be, "when you deserve it." Fair enough. But what Im talking about is not asking when Im going to test but rather asking what I need to do to be ready to test or what I need to do to bring myself up to par to meet my sensei's standards for the next belt. That way I know Im headed in the right direction to the next milestone. Otherwise you might just stay at the belt you're at indefinitely.

Much like my friend who got his black belt after he worked on his round kick but first he had to know that it was the round kick he had to work on. He got the black belt by working hard of course, but also by using his mouth. Do you see anything wrong with what my friend did? He did get his black belt after all.

You've got a mouth, you've got to use it.

 

[Gnarlie]

At my place, people of all different ranks train together and do the same drills although when you do partner drills you would usually have a partner whose of the same or close to the same rank as you. The exception would be katas where for each belt there is a specific kata you learn for advancement and each time you go up a belt you learn the kata for the next belt.

As I said, a good instructor.

As for students not knowing what they don't know that's true enough at the lower belts but at higher belts when a student knows so much more than when they first stated out, not so much. If anything, I would say more questions are necessary at the higher belts when there is more knowledge to absorb and more stuff you've got to know. Its at the higher belts when you realize just how much you don't know so that's the time to start asking.

I still know nothing, and I don't know what I don't know. I train the things I am aware I am weak at. Belts happen.

And focus should be first and foremost on the training but there is nothing wrong with wanting the next belt and having that as a goal, much like an academic student should focus first and foremost on the material and the studying but still wants to get an A, even if that's not their primary focus.

I just don't assign that much significance to coloured pieces of cloth. Or academic qualifications, for that matter. Ability and experience is worth so much more in the real world.

Asking what you need to do to get to the next belt is so that you know that you're headed in the right direction. Its not the same as the child in the back seat asking if we're nearly there yet, that would be more like a student asking their sensei when they're going to test which some people have said is disrespectful. As some people have pointed out for questions such as, "When am I going to test?" the answer would be, "when you're ready." Or, "when am I going to get my next belt?" the answer would be, "when you deserve it." Fair enough. But what Im talking about is not asking when Im going to test but rather asking what I need to do to be ready to test or what I need to do to bring myself up to par to meet my sensei's standards for the next belt. That way I know Im headed in the right direction to the next milestone. Otherwise you might just stay at the belt you're at indefinitely.

It is your instructors job to keep you on track. It is up to him or her to train you in the abilities that you need. You just have to shut up and train and you will get there. So you might stay at the same belt for a while. If you do, it is because you need to. And the end product is deeper ingrained skill.

Much like my friend who got his black belt after he worked on his round kick but first he had to know that it was the round kick he had to work on. He got the black belt by working hard of course, but also by using his mouth. Do you see anything wrong with what my friend did? He did get his black belt after all.

You've got a mouth, you've got to use it.

You don't need a mouth to shut up and train. The question in my mind is why wasn't your friend already aware of his own weakness when going for first dan...he should not have needed to be spoon fed, and that's a failure on both his and the instructor's part IMO.

 

[PhotonGuy]

It is your instructors job to keep you on track. It is up to him or her to train you in the abilities that you need. You just have to shut up and train and you will get there. So you might stay at the same belt for a while. If you do, it is because you need to. And the end product is deeper ingrained skill.

That is not how all instructors function. At my place testing for rank is optional and there are some students who will get to a certain belt and then stop pursuing rank. For instance, there are brown belt students at my place who after getting to brown belt have stopped caring about any further rank advancement. There are of course, some people who go into the martial arts who could care less about any rank whatsoever and my instructor is fine with that, but if you do want to pursue rank it is up to you as a student to ask the sensei about it. The sensei might tell you that you're not ready but it is up to you as a student to ask for the form to sign up for the test in the first place, my sensei expects you to take the initiative on that and if you don't than he just assumes that you don't care to advance in rank. He's good with that but if you're a student who wants to advance and you just "shut up and train," and don't say anything or ask any questions, you will stay at the belt you're at not just for a while but forever, or at least as long as you take that approach.

You don't need a mouth to shut up and train.

Obviously you don't since a mouth is used to do the opposite but I think what you meant to say was something along the lines of, "just because you've got a mouth doesn't mean you can't shut up and train."

The question in my mind is why wasn't your friend already aware of his own weakness when going for first dan...he should not have needed to be spoon fed, and that's a failure on both his and the instructor's part IMO.

As I stated before its the instructor who sets the standards so he knows them best and he knows best how a student falls short of them. Therefore it can be a good idea for a student to ask if they meet the instructor's standards and if they don't what they're lagging behind in if for any reason at all, just to clarify it. A student might find out for themselves that their round kick or whatever needs work but they should still clarify it with the instructor just for good measure and to be absolutely sure. If you consider that spoon feeding and if you can figure everything out yourself why even take lessons in the first place? Why not just be your own Sensei if you can teach yourself everything and you don't want to be, as you put it, spoon fed? To each their own but I see no point in re-inventing the wheel.

I took a tactical shooting class and you could say that tactical shooting is a martial art. You learn stances for shooting, you learn specific techniques for drawing and firing weapons and you learn tactical movement. Anyway, at the class, before we took a break for lunch the instructor wanted the class to ask at least two questions. Clearly they didn't expect us to just "shut up and train." The thing is, taking the approach of, "shut up and train," is sometimes a good idea but its not always the best thing to do depending on what the student wants to get out of the art. I speak from my own experience. One of the reasons I preach so much against always taking the, "shut up and train" approach is because I made that mistake myself.

Anyway, Im getting the impression that like some of the others you just don't care about rank. That's all fine and good but if that's the case than like I said before, some of the stuff I say wouldn't apply to you.

 

[Gnarlie]

I am not suggesting that I teach myself, just that I concentrate on understanding and learning what I am being taught.

If you were to ask me these questions as your instructor, I would be disappointed, because I would have already taught you how to do those things, and we would have trained them together many many times over. I would expect you to understand and be able to visualise what a round kick should look like based on that training, and make your own efforts toward improving it. If you were for example too tense, I'd have told you that many times during our training. You wouldn't need to ask what to work on. You would just need to crack on and practice.

If you a) let yourself and b)your instructor lets you, get to first dan with a dodgy round kick, then something has failed in a) the training and b) the teaching.

Maybe it is too much focus on belt progress and testing, and not enough focus on actual training.

 

[Gnarlie]

In our club we use a couple of in house created sequences of movements to communicate basic techniques and movements like stepping.

Some people ask in their first lesson if we have it written down.

The answer is no, because if the person trains regularly they will pick it up long before they end up getting tested on it.

If there is a structured syllabus and a structured teaching methodology, there is not a need to communicate grading and testing requirements directly to students. This leaves the student free to focus where they need to, and avoids the need to teach to the test.

 

[drop bear]

Early on, we rush from milestone to milestone, telling the world and ourselves 'look how much ground I have covered'. Later, we realise the path is an ascending spiral which has no end, and we slow down and start to enjoy the scenery, breathing, and the act of putting one foot in front of the other.

I don't really believe that. I have seen plenty of older people turn around and say they have ambled. Through life enough and want to achieve that milestone.

Otherwise old people would never get black belts.

Again you make goal setting to be a thing of immaturity. And Other than prose I am not sure that is a realistic argument.

 

[drop bear]

I am not suggesting that I teach myself, just that I concentrate on understanding and learning what I am being taught.

If you were to ask me these questions as your instructor, I would be disappointed, because I would have already taught you how to do those things, and we would have trained them together many many times over. I would expect you to understand and be able to visualise what a round kick should look like based on that training, and make your own efforts toward improving it. If you were for example too tense, I'd have told you that many times during our training. You wouldn't need to ask what to work on. You would just need to crack on and practice.

If you a) let yourself and b)your instructor lets you, get to first dan with a dodgy round kick, then something has failed in a) the training and b) the teaching.

Maybe it is too much focus on belt progress and testing, and not enough focus on actual training.

That is a kind of different outlook for me. As I am going through a process of cleaning up my technique at the moment. Getting that 1% neatened up.

 

[Gnarlie]

I don't really believe that. I have seen plenty of older people turn around and say they have ambled. Through life enough and want to achieve that milestone.

Otherwise old people would never get black belts.

Again you make goal setting to be a thing of immaturity. And Other than prose I am not sure that is a realistic argument.

Again, I am not suggesting not making progress or not moving forward.

Just focusing on what is real: the present.

Old people can make just as much progress as anyone else by displaying mindfulness.

No problem with goal setting. No problem with having a goal. The belt being the goal is the problem.

 

[drop bear]

I am not suggesting that I teach myself, just that I concentrate on understanding and learning what I am being taught.

If you were to ask me these questions as your instructor, I would be disappointed, because I would have already taught you how to do those things, and we would have trained them together many many times over. I would expect you to understand and be able to visualise what a round kick should look like based on that training, and make your own efforts toward improving it. If you were for example too tense, I'd have told you that many times during our training. You wouldn't need to ask what to work on. You would just need to crack on and practice.

If you a) let yourself and b)your instructor lets you, get to first dan with a dodgy round kick, then something has failed in a) the training and b) the teaching.

Maybe it is too much focus on belt progress and testing, and not enough focus on actual training.

I just had a thought about this. Disappointed in who. His inability to learn. Or your inability to teach?

This is kind of important because I know a few students that face that issue. And the "I have already taught you that" has been thrown out there from time to time.

 

[Gnarlie]

I just had a thought about this. Disappointed in who. His inability to learn. Or your inability to teach?

This is kind of important because I know a few students that face that issue. And the "I have already taught you that" has been thrown out there from time to time.

It was hypothetical situation - in reality it doesn't reach that stage because I make sure I keep ongoing communication with the people I teach during their training. They have the opportunity to see, train, and be corrected on their movements every time we train. They have the ongoing opportunity to ask questions to help them visualise and create the movements. They are only taught and trained in what is relevant to them at their current level.

This makes the question 'what do I need to work on for my next test' unnecessary, and in the case of it being asked it would demonstrate:

1) That the student hadn't listened during training
2) That the student had not taken the opportunity to ask questions during demonstration and first contact phases of training where they did not understand
3) That the student was more focused on the test than their abilities
4) That the student had not accepted responsibility for their own development
5) That the student is not able to reflect on their own abilities and see what they need to work on

Just to be clear: I welcome technical questions during the visualisation, first contact and review stages of teaching. During the practice phase, it's shut up and train.

The 'what do I need to work on' question never needs to be asked in such a structure, as the answer is abundantly clear:

'Everything before and since the last test. Figure out and work on your weak points.'

 

[Gnarlie]

Additionally, there are some issues like trunk twist power generation, that students early in their journey are not ready to perceive or visualise. A lot of 'I already taught you that' comes from instructors failing to structure what they teach to take into account this effect.

 

[drop bear]

Again, I am not suggesting not making progress or not moving forward.

Just focusing on what is real: the present.

Old people can make just as much progress as anyone else by displaying mindfulness.

No problem with goal setting. No problem with having a goal. The belt being the goal is the problem.

Ok. But you have a belt system that could be used to inspire people to be mindful. And you then actively deter that notion.

 

[drop bear]

It was hypothetical situation - in reality it doesn't reach that stage because I make sure I keep ongoing communication with the people I teach during their training. They have the opportunity to see, train, and be corrected on their movements every time we train. They have the ongoing opportunity to ask questions to help them visualise and create the movements. They are only taught and trained in what is relevant to them at their current level.

This makes the question 'what do I need to work on for my next test' unnecessary, and in the case of it being asked it would demonstrate:

1) That the student hadn't listened during training
2) That the student had not taken the opportunity to ask questions during demonstration and first contact phases of training where they did not understand
3) That the student was more focused on the test than their abilities
4) That the student had not accepted responsibility for their own development
5) That the student is not able to reflect on their own abilities and see what they need to work on

Just to be clear: I welcome technical questions during the visualisation, first contact and review stages of teaching. During the practice phase, it's shut up and train.

The 'what do I need to work on' question never needs to be asked in such a structure, as the answer is abundantly clear:

'Everything before and since the last test. Figure out and work on your weak points.'

Wow. That is an interesting stance.

 

[Gnarlie]

Ok. But you have a belt system that could be used to inspire people to be mindful. And you then actively deter that notion.

On the contrary, I encourage people to focus on the training that will get them the belt, rather than the belt itself.

Sometimes between tests it's a case of, OK, here's your next belt. Wear it. Is your ability magically any better? No. So why focus on the belt as a goal when it is the training and the ability that is your real goal? The things that you are doing here and now.

 

[Gnarlie]

Wow. That is an interesting stance.

It prepares people for the post first dan experience, encourages them to take some responsibility for their own learning.

 

[drop bear]

It prepares people for the post first dan experience, encourages them to take some responsibility for their own learning.

I don't think in reality it is as polarised as that. One way or the other. I would prefer to work under a model where both the instructor and the student are a bit flawed in their approach and the responsibility is in acknowledging that and finding methods to deal with it.

 

[drop bear]

On the contrary, I encourage people to focus on the training that will get them the belt, rather than the belt itself.

Sometimes between tests it's a case of, OK, here's your next belt. Wear it. Is your ability magically any better? No. So why focus on the belt as a goal when it is the training and the ability that is your real goal? The things that you are doing here and now.

We do a 12 week camp before a fight to get the student in absolute tip top nick for what can be a very hard test.

What do you think would be the merit of approaching a grading in the same manner?

 

[Gnarlie]

I don't think in reality it is as polarised as that. One way or the other. I would prefer to work under a model where both the instructor and the student are a bit flawed in their approach and the responsibility is in acknowledging that and finding methods to deal with it.

I'm not claiming my approach is not flawed. I agree with what you have said above, and that would be my aim too. I just encourage people to take responsibility for their own progress.

 

[Gnarlie]

We do a 12 week camp before a fight to get the student in absolute tip top nick for what can be a very hard test.

What do you think would be the merit of approaching a grading in the same manner?

I do the same with students before first dan. But the focus is absolutely on their skills, not the test. If their skills are up to it, the test will be a matter of course. The old train hard fight easy adage.