ITF Taekwondo/ quick question

[JohnnyEnglish]

Hi all.

I know the difference between ITF and WTF taekwondo by now ( kind of ) but I heard rumors that ITF Taekwondo is kind of coming from North-Korea. Is this true ?

 

[Earl Weiss]

Total B.S. (Short Version) In 1953 or so an MA demo was part of a much larger SK Military Demo before the president of SK, S. Rhee. So impressed was he with the demo he told one of his Generals Choi Hong Hi who was born in what LATER became NK that all the troops needs to learn MA and he knew General Choi had a Martial Arts Background. The problem was that MA in Sk was fragmented among many Kwans so a unified system needed to be taught to spread on a wide scale. Also a single name would help. General Choi came up with a name to unify the arts "T K D" formaly adopted in 1955 later to be TK-D, and a new Kwan. The Oh Do Kwan, or the Gym of my way (each members way) so existing Kwna members could all be a part of it without going to an existing rival Kwan.

Naturaly those not wanting to adopt the new name and system were not real happy about being left off the bus.

General Choi was allowed to create a new infantry division, the 29th (Fist) and used it to recruit and train top MA talent, using the SK Military resources to send demo teams and instructors to spread TKD as well as influence instructors throughout the world to teach TKD. Fast forward a couple of decades and political upheaval in SK as well as a military coup and General Choi is no longer on the correct side of the fence and the SK government wants to take over TKD. he says to heck with that and leavews for Canada to take TKD with him.

The SK govenrment says to heck with you and creates their owm brand of TKD circa 1974 or so and now uses it's resources to train, dispatch and convert isntructors.

General Choi continues his efforts to spread TKD everywhere including what used to be referred to as "Communist Countries" and to NK in 1980, dispatching an instructor to NK about that time. So, while the ITF as an org was not formed until sometime later, for the first 25 years of it's existance what is often referred to a s "ITF TKD" as a system, did not exist in NK.

 

[Dirty Dog]

Hi all.

I know the difference between ITF and WTF taekwondo by now ( kind of ) but I heard rumors that ITF Taekwondo is kind of coming from North-Korea. Is this true ?

That seems unlikely, since there IS no such thing as WTF Taekwondo.
The WTF is an organization that promotes and oversees tournaments using the Olympic competition rules.
It sets no curriculum and awards no rank. It has no member schools.



Sent from an old fashioned 300 baud acoustic modem by whistling into the handset. Not TapaTalk. Really.

 

[TrueJim]

JohnnyE, here's my take...

Back when taekwondo was being developed, North Korea was a communist country (and of course still is), and South Korea was a dictatorship. Of course later, in the late 1980s, South Korea became the modern democracy that we all know and love today.

General Choi (the father of taekwondo, and specifically the father of ITF/Chang Hon taekwondo) wanted to promoted taekwondo worldwide, and for that he needed funding and support, which he actively sought from all quarters. When Choi fell out-of-favor with the South Korean dictatorship, he sought funding and support elsewhere, including from North Korea. Remember that this is all happening during the Cold War, when being called "communist" was akin to today being called "terrorist" - there was nothing worse than being a commie-lover. I think that -- not only did Choi seek funding and support from North Korea -- he also wanted to promote taekwondo in all countries of the world, including North Korea. But back then...you simply couldn't do that without being branded a commie-lover. I suspect that Choi also viewed the promotion of taekwondo in the North as a way to maybe bring the two countries a little bit closer together, which is something that Koreans of his generation very much wanted.*

So no...ITF/Chang Hon taekwondo is not North Korean, but in some people's minds it is associated with North Korea because General Choi sought funding and support from North Korea and tried to promote taekwondo in North Korea.

If you want more detail, you can read here: Timeline of Taekwondo - Taekwondo Wiki and here: Taekwondo History - Taekwondo Wiki

* Recent polls suggest that the younger generations of South Koreans are less interested in reunification with the North. The economic toll on the South for reunification would be hefty, and the two cultures have grown very much apart in the last few decades.

** And yes, WTF-style taekwondo is more correctly referred to as Kukkiwon-style, the style defined by the Kukkiwon that is practiced by the WTF...so a lot of people incorrectly call it WTF-style...but honestly, more people are likely to know what you're talking about if you call it WTF-style, since it's better known by that (incorrect) name. You can read more about that here: WTF Taekwondo - Taekwondo Wiki

 

[chrispillertkd]

Hi all.

I know the difference between ITF and WTF taekwondo by now ( kind of ) but I heard rumors that ITF Taekwondo is kind of coming from North-Korea. Is this true ?

Well, it kind of depends on what you mean by "coming from." Master Weiss gave a very good, accurate answer. But one of the ITF groups is headed by a North Korean IOC member/government official. That is an organizational manner and as people have pointed out that is distinct from (though related to) the style itself.

While Gen. Choi was born in what is now North Korea (before the country was divided) he founded Taekwon-Do in South Korea after the Korean War. He did introduce Taekwon-Do to North Korea but not until circa 1980, a good 25 years after the style was founded. There are now several ITF DoJangs in South Korea though the organization is very small compared to the WTF/Kukkiwon schools there (and always will be, IMO).

Pax,

Chris

 

[JohnnyEnglish]

Thank's for your answers.

 

[Earl Weiss]

"If you want more detail, you can read here: Timeline of Taekwondo - Taekwondo Wiki"

This refers to a 1960 Goodwill TKD Tour to NK.

I know there was one in 1980. Anyone have more info about a 1960 tour or is this a screwup?

 

[Gnarlie]

"If you want more detail, you can read here: Timeline of Taekwondo - Taekwondo Wiki"

This refers to a 1960 Goodwill TKD Tour to NK.

I know there was one in 1980. Anyone have more info about a 1960 tour or is this a screwup?

Also @TrueJim you might want to add this in for 1959 - the demo program for Vietnam and Taiwan tours. I haven't seen a link...?

http://www.bluecottagetkd.com/files/1959_tkddemoprogram.pdf

 

[TrueJim]

"If you want more detail, you can read here: Timeline of Taekwondo - Taekwondo Wiki"

This refers to a 1960 Goodwill TKD Tour to NK.

I know there was one in 1980. Anyone have more info about a 1960 tour or is this a screwup?

It's always possible I screwed up! Most of my sources are listed on the bottom of the page, but I'll have to go perusing to see where I got that from...and whether or not I transcribed it wrong.

 

[TrueJim]

Also @TrueJim you might want to add this in for 1959 - the demo program for Vietnam and Taiwan tours. I haven't seen a link...?

http://www.bluecottagetkd.com/files/1959_tkddemoprogram.pdf

That date is March 1959? I think in that version of the timeline, I'm counting that as the start of the Original Masters tours. I'll make it more explicit that the tours began in Southeast Asia. If you don't think that's the right way to address it, let me know! It's easy to change. (Wikia has a nice WYSIWYG editor!)

 

[TrueJim]

Here's a website that lists the 1960 Goodwill Tour to North Korea, but I'll keep looking for something more authoratative.

Taekwondo History Timeline

 

[TrueJim]

Here's another website that alludes to an early 1960s goodwill tour to North Korea.

history

Oh, and here's another...

TaeKwonDo History - S.A.N.T.F.

 

[Earl Weiss]

Here's a website that lists the 1960 Goodwill Tour to North Korea, but I'll keep looking for something more authoratative.

Taekwondo History Timeline

I have confirmed that this is the internet repeating an error. I happen to know 3 people on the 1980 Tour. Sr. GM Sereff, Carl Nicoletti (roomed with him in camp in 1981 following the tour, and Sr, Master Kresimir Brusar. The tour was arranged by General Choi in 1979 long after he had left SK.

Here is an article about mistakes appearing on the net about TKD Timelines and references this error.

http://www.examiner.com/article/history-of-taekwon-do-setting-the-record-straight

 

[RobBnTX]

I made green belt ( think I was 6th gup working on 5th gup, don't remember for sure) in ITF Taekwon-Do back in the early 90's under Master Oscar Jimenez in Midland TX. I dropped out due to travel distance and the amount of working hours I was putting in my job ( I was living and working 60 miles away from Midland).

I now live in the Dallas area (Plano) and to my knowledge there are no ITF schools around here but given a choice I would much prefer to train in an ITF school over Kukki-TKD. The best I can do is just train in the most traditional Kukki-TKD school in my area, we do have a couple of really good instructors in this area though.

Again, if given a choice I would almost always pick the ITF school but as others have pointed out, in the end it all really depends on the instructor.

Good luck!

 

[TrueJim]

On the road today to the Yong-In tournament in Georgia, but I'll fix that 1960s NK error when I get back to my laptop.

 

[TrueJim]

I have confirmed that this is the internet repeating an error. I happen to know 3 people on the 1980 Tour. Sr. GM Sereff, Carl Nicoletti (roomed with him in camp in 1981 following the tour, and Sr, Master Kresimir Brusar. The tour was arranged by General Choi in 1979 long after he had left SK.

Here is an article about mistakes appearing on the net about TKD Timelines and references this error.

http://www.examiner.com/article/history-of-taekwon-do-setting-the-record-straight

Technically, the two accounts aren't necessarily at odds? The claim of the sources that I listed above is that in 1960 (or 1966, depending on the source), Choi sent a taekwondo team to North Korea, not that he himself personally went to North Korea. The Examiner article is explicit about Choi himself not going to North Korea until 1979, but is it possible that he sent a team to North Korea in the early 1960s? I'm not suggesting that this is likely...just throwing it out there to see if anybody has any additional insights.

Personally, it does seem remarkable that Choi would have had any contact with North Korea at all in the early 1960s, given the politics of the time, so I'm inclined to believe that there was no 1960s demo in North Korea. Since extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence, I've amended the wiki to mitigate the 1960s claim.

 

[Earl Weiss]

The Examiner article is explicit about Choi himself not going to North Korea until 1979, but is it possible that he sent a team to North Korea in the early 1960s? .

The reason I immediately thought this was wrong was that by all accounts the 1980 demo was the first NK exposure to TKD and this is the account I rec'd in 1981 when I was talking to the 1980 demo team members.

 

[chrispillertkd]

Technically, the two accounts aren't necessarily at odds? The claim of the sources that I listed above is that in 1960 (or 1966, depending on the source), Choi sent a taekwondo team to North Korea, not that he himself personally went to North Korea. The Examiner article is explicit about Choi himself not going to North Korea until 1979, but is it possible that he sent a team to North Korea in the early 1960s? I'm not suggesting that this is likely...just throwing it out there to see if anybody has any additional insights.

Personally, it does seem remarkable that Choi would have had any contact with North Korea at all in the early 1960s, given the politics of the time, so I'm inclined to believe that there was no 1960s demo in North Korea. Since extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence, I've amended the wiki to mitigate the 1960s claim.

Gen. Choi is pretty forthcoming in his autobiography about being approached by the North Koreans in 1979 and travelling there in 1980 with the Demo team. There's no mention of him going to or sending a team there in the 1960's in any of his books, however. I'm not sure how the 1960's date even came about as all of the published accounts by Gen. Choi state the first time the demo team went there was in 1980. (The first instructors course in NK - which lasted 7 months and was taught by GM Park, Jung Tae - wasn't until 1981.)

Pax,

Chris