Is Wing Chun even viable.

drop bear

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I'm not sure who they are trying to attack but it looked good to me. lol. Here's what I got from it.
1. Younger crowd
2. Older guys who refuse to be old
3. Someone who doesn't like their martial arts extremely traditional but enjoy a little tradition
4. Something modern and not old (punching pads, heavy bag, music).
5. Fun bunch who was at the end.
6. People who train hard. I know one of the big selling points for some of the people who signed up under my old school is that we did traditional body conditioning. Aka punch and kick each other.
7. The self-defense part didn't stick out to me. I saw it, but it really didn't register as self-defense.

If I had to make an assumption then I would say that these guys probably train hard. If I went to their school saw that they didn't, then I would be really disappointed.


EDIT: This was what I was picking up from it, but they could be trying to put out an entirely different message that is lost on me. I'm pretty sure my life in martial arts is skewing some of what I think I'm seeing. I could be self-reflecting and being reminded of the stuff I used to do at the old school.

The general theme is they can beat another guy in a fight.

And so attracting guys who have that as a priority.
 

gpseymour

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Interesting. Because looking at the marketing of self defense schools. They seem to think that a person's priorities in joining would maby look something like this.



There seems to be this theme of people just cleaning house.
That is part of the marketing, yes. If we look at some of what people pick up (possibly not consciously), the defenders are rarely shown having to work too hard. A quick flurry, not out of breath, and it's over. When the instructor demonstrates, he often does the cool stuff that he makes look easy (because it's fun to do that - I do some of it, too). Now, look at how many MMA gyms show the sweat. Maybe just the difference in terms encapsulates what I'm getting at: "school" or "academy", versus "gym". Which would you expect to make you sweat (from physical exertion - some of us sweat just thinking about school)?

And it's definitely not a black-and-white thing. There's some of each on each side, but it's a matter of the preponderance of things.

Now, I might be wrong about some (or even all) of this. But it's a considered point based on thinking about this a few years to try to figure why people go where they do.
 

gpseymour

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If in the pursuit of skill development you get fit, fitness is intrinsic to the activity. In other words, you will not help but become more fit. However, if fitness is the primary goal, developing any skill is not given. And we see a lot of evidence that skill development falls by the wayside. Essentially, the school becomes a formalized tae bo school.
It could be part of what happens. But it really doesn't have to be. If you train soft and slow, you'll still develop some skills (I'd argue they're not reliable for fighting, but note I didn't say "fighting skills"), but you won't gain much in fitness.

I do agree that fitness doesn't guarantee a specific skill. But that wasn't the point I made. I said the schools could teach skills to pretty much anyone - again, not necessarily fight-applicable skills (I could teach classical NGA techniques without any real attempt to make them fight-applicable, for instance). And yes, it could become something like Tae Bo, or something like modern Wushu, which has a lot of skill, but much of it isn't really fight-applicable (and that latter is close to what I was trying to say - I probably should have used that example the first time).
 

gpseymour

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The general theme is they can beat another guy in a fight.

And so attracting guys who have that as a priority.
I do think that particular school is doing exactly what you said. And looking at their training, they train very differently from most Aikido schools, if we assume the video is a reasonable representation of what they do. They have a foundation for their Aikido principles to work on. Again, assuming that video is a fair representation, and not just a really good demo reel.
 

JowGaWolf

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And looking at their training, they train very differently from most Aikido schools,
This is what I was picking up as well but wasn't sure sense I've never seen an Aikido class in session. People usually put the most important thing about their school first. So in that video it would have been Tradition. Then after that a more modern feel game in. It had that "old with the new" new vibe in it.

Here's a comparison video from 9 years ago. Big difference. I asked myself which Aikido school would I go to. I'm definitely picking the one that had punching and the heavy bag. The first school just looks like they are working harder. This school just looks like the energy is missing. Again most people put the most important thing in the video first.


EDIT: If I had to guess there are many TMA schools that are now going through big changes in how "Old ways are presented"
 

gpseymour

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This is what I was picking up as well but wasn't sure sense I've never seen an Aikido class in session. People usually put the most important thing about their school first. So in that video it would have been Tradition. Then after that a more modern feel game in. It had that "old with the new" new vibe in it.

Here's a comparison video from 9 years ago. Big difference. I asked myself which Aikido school would I go to. I'm definitely picking the one that had punching and the heavy bag. The first school just looks like they are working harder. This school just looks like the energy is missing. Again most people put the most important thing in the video first.


EDIT: If I had to guess there are many TMA schools that are now going through big changes in how "Old ways are presented"
I didn’t even make it through the whole video. It seems even they knew energy was missing: they sped it up in post-production.

As for where a video starts, I think it’s often what they think is most interesting (which may or may not be what’s most important to them). It’s telling to me that the video you posted is more than 1/2 warmup.
 

Steve

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It could be part of what happens. But it really doesn't have to be. If you train soft and slow, you'll still develop some skills (I'd argue they're not reliable for fighting, but note I didn't say "fighting skills"), but you won't gain much in fitness.

I do agree that fitness doesn't guarantee a specific skill. But that wasn't the point I made. I said the schools could teach skills to pretty much anyone - again, not necessarily fight-applicable skills (I could teach classical NGA techniques without any real attempt to make them fight-applicable, for instance). And yes, it could become something like Tae Bo, or something like modern Wushu, which has a lot of skill, but much of it isn't really fight-applicable (and that latter is close to what I was trying to say - I probably should have used that example the first time).
i think you’re getting close to understanding. It is not true that you will develop some skill if you train soft and slow. You may. But we see a lot of evidence that you actually do not.

As en exercise, try to think of any other activity where a person signs up to learn how to do something, and gets taught something else. “Thank you for signing up for baking classes. Please line up and we will begin our breathing exercises. After which we will plug in the toasters,”
 

gpseymour

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i think you’re getting close to understanding. It is not true that you will develop some skill if you train soft and slow. You may. But we see a lot of evidence that you actually do not.
I think you may be confusing "some skill" with "a particular skill". I can absolutely teach someone a skill slow. They may not be able to apply it faster (reducing the usability of it), but it's still a skill. That's what I was getting at: when a school says "we can teach anyone", that's probably true (excepting some outlandish outliers). They can deliver a skill to anyone, even if it's not a fighting skill.

As en exercise, try to think of any other activity where a person signs up to learn how to do something, and gets taught something else. “Thank you for signing up for baking classes. Please line up and we will begin our breathing exercises. After which we will plug in the toasters,”
We're back to the problem of defining what MA is, I think. I'd include modern Wushu in that definition, though it's arguable whether what they teach has any real applicability to fighting. Heck, if I was younger, I might even be interested in getting training in modern Wushu, because it looks like fun. But it'd be like taking gymnastics classes - not necessarily related to fighting skill.
 

JowGaWolf

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s for where a video starts, I think it’s often what they think is most interesting
Stretching sucks. not much interesting about it, but it is important. Do Aikido guys have a tendency of not being flexible?
 

gpseymour

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Stretching sucks. not much interesting about it, but it is important. Do Aikido guys have a tendency of not being flexible?
Probably. I've not seen a lot of stretching in most Aikido schools. Even in NGA, where it's probably more of an issue, they don't stretch anything like that much. I'm guessing that particular school saw their lengthy warm-up as a "pro" and a differentiator. I'm not sure from what, though.
 

Steve

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I think you may be confusing "some skill" with "a particular skill". I can absolutely teach someone a skill slow. They may not be able to apply it faster (reducing the usability of it), but it's still a skill. That's what I was getting at: when a school says "we can teach anyone", that's probably true (excepting some outlandish outliers). They can deliver a skill to anyone, even if it's not a fighting skill.


We're back to the problem of defining what MA is, I think. I'd include modern Wushu in that definition, though it's arguable whether what they teach has any real applicability to fighting. Heck, if I was younger, I might even be interested in getting training in modern Wushu, because it looks like fun. But it'd be like taking gymnastics classes - not necessarily related to fighting skill.
I'm not confusing anything . I'm just making a different point than you think.
 

gpseymour

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I'm not confusing anything . I'm just making a different point than you think.
You seemed to be addressing my point, so I was addressing what seemed to be your contradiction to what I was saying. If you weren't, then I'll need to go back and re-read with that in mind.
 

Trapboxer

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Wing Chun is definitely a viable martial art and can be very effective but the problem is how most sifus train the art
They don't do enough sparring some don't do any sparring.they do tons of chi Sao which is great but chi Sao is a whole lot different when someone is trying to punch you in the face. Chi Sao does have benefits it help develop sensitivity which gives you a whole lot of info when tie up where your weight is, structure, energy, etc
But you need to be able to this while being pressure tested

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Oily Dragon

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There are generally two schools of thought.

One is that this video is some of the best Wing Chun sparring on the internet. The other is that this is patty cake garbage.

Choose wisely.

 

Trapboxer

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Sifu Mark Philips does a great job of controlling and countering


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Holmejr

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My older brother got wing chung classes and he like it.
He didnt go to some classes and dropped it, because his teacher changed, but he still had in his mind, that
wing chun is viable,.... because his trainer said he needed self defense and started giving him classes.

I am doing muay thai right now, and I have to say its fricking amazing! Just all the kind of kicks is so much fun.
I had a sparring match as well (but sadly a boxing sparring match, because I only had 2 days of training, but still fun!). I got a lot of adrenaline and it felt so good being in a sparring match.
After I told my older brother about it, he got a bit depressed, because he watched a video of 5 fake martial arts, and wing chun was at number one. Because I am not quite the martial artist, I need your guys' opinion on this martial art. Is it viable, or fake?
My older brother got wing chung classes and he like it.
He didnt go to some classes and dropped it, because his teacher changed, but he still had in his mind, that
wing chun is viable,.... because his trainer said he needed self defense and started giving him classes.

I am doing muay thai right now, and I have to say its fricking amazing! Just all the kind of kicks is so much fun.
I had a sparring match as well (but sadly a boxing sparring match, because I only had 2 days of training, but still fun!). I got a lot of adrenaline and it felt so good being in a sparring match.
After I told my older brother about it, he got a bit depressed, because he watched a video of 5 fake martial arts, and wing chun was at number one. Because I am not quite the martial artist, I need your guys' opinion on this martial art. Is it viable, or fake?
 

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