Is Wing Chun even viable.

[drop bear]

I like this. Gonna steal it in my head

By the way what is your opinion of xma.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

By the way what is your opinion of xma.

I'm a fan, unfortunately the place is closed down according to google. But they don't try to sell themselves as a self defense or a fighting style, they're upfront about what they are. And honestly, with the level of fitness you'd get doing something like that, I don't think it would take very long to get someone to be fight-ready if they decided to cross train for (for example) a kickboxing match. I'd still recommend that people cross train in a 'martial' martial art, but I could totally see myself picking that up for fun.

 

[TSDTexan]

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Basically gpseymor did exactly what I said he does. Takes the priorities of someone and shifts them to his own. So someone says they want one thing. But that isn't really what they want.

I think maybe you misunderstood JGW's post, DB. I think he was implying some people really don't want to do what it takes to become a good fighter, though they'd like to be a good fighter. That's how I read it, anyway, so one or the other of us misread it (or I'm misreading what you mean here).

EDIT: I also think I misread what you were saying earlier. I read your posts about "their intention is wrong" as meaning people were saying, "No, you shouldn't pursue MA for that reason." That's what I was saying I'd not seen.

See, you're looking for me to be ignoring stuff, rather than considering there might just be miscommunication. You do that more than a little.

 

[DocWard]

I was trying to type quickly.

Ok. Recap.

Basically gpseymor did exactly what I said he does. Takes the priorities of someone and shifts them to his own. So someone says they want one thing. But that isn't really what they want.

As I said this happens a lot. Just in general. The biggest example is self defense. Generally a poster will come on and say they got beat up or something and want to learn to defend themselves. Which generally comes out they want to know how to fight.

And then they get informed that self defense isn't fighting and what they really want is something else. They really want fun or avoidance or people skills or something. That all martial arts are equal in this endeavor.

Now if anyone remembers back to fat kid and the running race. It becomes the same deal. If fat kid wants to win a race he can go about it in two ways. He can either get faster through effort or enter a race where everyone wins.

Obviously you can convince fat kid that winning a race does not necessarily mean being the fastest. And it is probably genetics anyway. So his priorities really are something else.

And that is how this striving for mediocrity as a concept comes about.

The flat earth bit is after explaining all of this, providing quotes and everything he still just doesn't see it. Therefore the flat earth reference.

So basically I keep bringing these concepts up because they keep occurring. And I constantly receive the reply of "nope never happens"

And by the way. Not wanting to get sore from exercise is striving for mediocrity.

Unfortunately, it appears you are going to need to place me in your "flat earth" category as well, because in reviewing the entire thread, focusing on posts gpseymour made and responded to, as well as your own, I have not really seen him shifting someone else's priorities to his own. I have seen him explaining his own experience and how his classes are structured, which is arguably a different thing. Perhaps it has happened on other threads, I can't and won't speak to that. I also won't speak to general trends on other threads, because I don't have the time nor inclination to review a large number of threads seeking such.

On this thread, however, it appears to me that you sometimes make assumptions and logical leaps that aren't necessarily supported by the statements you reference. Maybe the connections are made in your head and don't make it to print. I will admit, I read your posts carefully, often attempting to understand exactly what you are trying to say and your basis for saying so. Maybe it is your writing style that I struggle with in that regard, I don't know. I have not seen anyone on this thread suggest others "strive for mediocrity," despite your assertions otherwise. I have seen people, myself included, suggest or imply the necessity of understanding where martial arts study fits into the hierarchy of priorities in one's life, and that most people will naturally do so, regardless of their stated desire.

On a final note, I understand what you are trying to say about not wanting to get sore from exercise. Yet, there again, not wanting to get sore and limiting yourself so that you do not get sore are two different things. Heck, I don't want to get sore from exercise, but I accept that it is a natural result of a hard workout and why. Some revel in the soreness that a good workout brings. I'm not one of those people, but I don't let the specter of being sore stop me from working out either. I think there is a decided difference, don't you?

 

[Steve]

Unfortunately, it appears you are going to need to place me in your "flat earth" category as well, because in reviewing the entire thread, focusing on posts gpseymour made and responded to, as well as your own, I have not really seen him shifting someone else's priorities to his own. I have seen him explaining his own experience and how his classes are structured, which is arguably a different thing. Perhaps it has happened on other threads, I can't and won't speak to that. I also won't speak to general trends on other threads, because I don't have the time nor inclination to review a large number of threads seeking such.

On this thread, however, it appears to me that you sometimes make assumptions and logical leaps that aren't necessarily supported by the statements you reference. Maybe the connections are made in your head and don't make it to print. I will admit, I read your posts carefully, often attempting to understand exactly what you are trying to say and your basis for saying so. Maybe it is your writing style that I struggle with in that regard, I don't know. I have not seen anyone on this thread suggest others "strive for mediocrity," despite your assertions otherwise. I have seen people, myself included, suggest or imply the necessity of understanding where martial arts study fits into the hierarchy of priorities in one's life, and that most people will naturally do so, regardless of their stated desire.

On a final note, I understand what you are trying to say about not wanting to get sore from exercise. Yet, there again, not wanting to get sore and limiting yourself so that you do not get sore are two different things. Heck, I don't want to get sore from exercise, but I accept that it is a natural result of a hard workout and why. Some revel in the soreness that a good workout brings. I'm not one of those people, but I don't let the specter of being sore stop me from working out either. I think there is a decided difference, don't you?

we are guilty of writing in shorthand sometimes around here. Discussions range from thread to thread. Very helpful to see it from your perspective .

 

[JowGaWolf]

Mabye the people who say they do. Really do.

We get a lot of those guys. Who even just want to do one to see if they can.

From what I can tell. The ones who really do put in the work to be able to use what they train. They have a different intensity and focus than those who don't want to learn how to fight. The best way I can describe it is that they are almost always in the mindset of "trying to figure it out." Do who aren't fighters tend to be more focus and satisfied with "how to do." It's like How to do vs How do I do. Here's the difference.

How to do - is more asking questions like how do you do this technique. This group focuses on learning patterns and forms
How do I / Figuring out - is more like how do things work. How do I set this technique up, How is this technique supposed to work,. This group is usually in thought about how to make stuff work

 

[drop bear]

From what I can tell. The ones who really do put in the work to be able to use what they train. They have a different intensity and focus than those who don't want to learn how to fight. The best way I can describe it is that they are almost always in the mindset of "trying to figure it out." Do who aren't fighters tend to be more focus and satisfied with "how to do." It's like How to do vs How do I do. Here's the difference.

How to do - is more asking questions like how do you do this technique. This group focuses on learning patterns and forms
How do I / Figuring out - is more like how do things work. How do I set this technique up, How is this technique supposed to work,. This group is usually in thought about how to make stuff work

Strange. Because we take random guys and train them to become fighters.

We run a course for it.

And interestingly I came across this which might be what you are describing.

And it almost doesn't happen with the guys we train.

 

[drop bear]

Unfortunately, it appears you are going to need to place me in your "flat earth" category as well, because in reviewing the entire thread, focusing on posts gpseymour made and responded to, as well as your own, I have not really seen him shifting someone else's priorities to his own. I have seen him explaining his own experience and how his classes are structured, which is arguably a different thing. Perhaps it has happened on other threads, I can't and won't speak to that. I also won't speak to general trends on other threads, because I don't have the time nor inclination to review a large number of threads seeking such.

On this thread, however, it appears to me that you sometimes make assumptions and logical leaps that aren't necessarily supported by the statements you reference. Maybe the connections are made in your head and don't make it to print. I will admit, I read your posts carefully, often attempting to understand exactly what you are trying to say and your basis for saying so. Maybe it is your writing style that I struggle with in that regard, I don't know. I have not seen anyone on this thread suggest others "strive for mediocrity," despite your assertions otherwise. I have seen people, myself included, suggest or imply the necessity of understanding where martial arts study fits into the hierarchy of priorities in one's life, and that most people will naturally do so, regardless of their stated desire.

On a final note, I understand what you are trying to say about not wanting to get sore from exercise. Yet, there again, not wanting to get sore and limiting yourself so that you do not get sore are two different things. Heck, I don't want to get sore from exercise, but I accept that it is a natural result of a hard workout and why. Some revel in the soreness that a good workout brings. I'm not one of those people, but I don't let the specter of being sore stop me from working out either. I think there is a decided difference, don't you?

It's a meta thing. Which is kind of why I use the short hand.

It just brings attention to these concepts as I see them.

 

[JowGaWolf]

ou are saying they don't want to learn to fight after they just told you they did?

This is what I'm saying. People will come into a school. You ask them what do they want to get out of the school and their training. Somewhere in that discussion, they will say. "Learn how to protect myself." People say this without understanding what it really takes to learn how to use Martial arts techniques.

They don't understand:

1. You are going to get punched and kicked and some of those things aren't going to feel good.
2. You are going to make many mistakes before you get good at it, in terms of fighting mistakes usually mean #1 above
3. You are going to have to work your but off and learn how to not be afraid of #1
4. You'll have bruises, maybe a black eye, jammed fingers, or some other injury as a result.
   
5. You'll be afraid / have butterflies, and deal with your fears and it really never goes away. You get to one level of sparring and those fears vanish, increase intensity and those same fears spark up again.
6. You'll have to learn how to trust a technique even if it seems you are going to get your face punched in. You have to do the technique as trained without "trying to make a technique work."

All of this and more are involved in fighting and not many people are willing to go through this. Here's a real student example, A lady does a trail and said she wants to learn how to protect herself against someone bigger (she's small and very skinny). This is what she said to me. Then keeping to what she wanted. One day I stated. "If you really want to be able to use those punches, you'll have to cut your fingernails. Otherwise you are going to injure your hand because you can't make a proper fist with fingernails that long." This was a deal killer and she never came back. So she liked the idea of fighting, but wasn't willing to commit to it.

She likes the idea of being small lady being able to defeat someone much bigger, but isn't willing to commit to making that a reality. She told me she want to take Wing Chun because it was made for women who are smaller to beat bigger people. I told her that Jow Ga is better (in my mind it is, but it's just bias as far as I know). I also told her a Wing Chun teaher will tell her the same thing. Long fingernails don't make good fists.

TMA vs MMA is full of guys who like the "idea of fighting" but actually don't put the necessary work in to be able to use the techniques for that purpose.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Strange. Because we take random guys and train them to become fighters.

We run a course for it.

And interestingly I came across this which might be what you are describing.

And it almost doesn't happen with the guys we train.

If the school is focus on training people how to fight, then you aren't going to see many people like what I described. Like the gyms that train fighters have a lot of people who like to fight and really want to learn how. It's more than just exercise for them. They put in the work. But with many TMA schools, it's just for health, discipline, or some will even say "It's only good for exercise because you really can't use it for fighting." (I was actually told this by a student I trained, who is originally from China.)

There's nothing wrong with it. A school has to pay their bills. When I used to teach at my old school, The marketing that I did was focused on the fighting because the it was decided long ago that's the type of people the oldest students wanted in the school. People who actually want to learn how to use kung fu. Then I get in trouble for "focusing too much on fighting." lol.

Your school or gym may be different and is most likely up front about what people are getting themselves into.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Strange. Because we take random guys and train them to become fighters.

We run a course for it.

And interestingly I came across this which might be what you are describing.

And it almost doesn't happen with the guys we train.

Yes. That's an example of people who like the idea of being a fighter and then are clueless as to what that really involves. At least the ones that I've met like this were smart enough to know their limits when reality of learning how to fight hits the ground.

 

[drop bear]

If the school is focus on training people how to fight, then you aren't going to see many people like what I described. Like the gyms that train fighters have a lot of people who like to fight and really want to learn how. It's more than just exercise for them. They put in the work. But with many TMA schools, it's just for health, discipline, or some will even say "It's only good for exercise because you really can't use it for fighting." (I was actually told this by a student I trained, who is originally from China.)

There's nothing wrong with it. A school has to pay their bills. When I used to teach at my old school, The marketing that I did was focused on the fighting because the it was decided long ago that's the type of people the oldest students wanted in the school. People who actually want to learn how to use kung fu. Then I get in trouble for "focusing too much on fighting." lol.

Your school or gym may be different and is most likely up front about what people are getting themselves into.

So you think there are a different bunch of guys going to these gyms. These fighters, non fighters going to one and the fighters really fighters going to another.

Even though there is no real restriction as to who goes to what gym.

And definitely not the system that is not providing the right tools to make students succeed.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

That's an example of people who like the idea of being a fighter and then are clueless as to what that really involves.

One of my guys wants to compete in Sanda tournament. I ask him to run 3 miles daily before he even consider it.

 

[JowGaWolf]

So you think there are a different bunch of guys going to these gyms. These fighters, non fighters going to one and the fighters really fighters going to another.

Even though there is no real restriction as to who goes to what gym.

Yes and from what I can tell. I've been to both establishments and the environment doesn't even feel the same. For example, we would be hard press to go to a muay thai gym and have someone say "I'm just doing this for exercise because no one uses this stuff to fight with anymore." Now go to a TMA school and you'll easily find people who have that same belief.

There are restrictions and the restriction are based on how the school or gym markets itself. I could show examples for it but it would be against the rules here. I'll try to highlight with these videos but it doesn't show the marketing just the perspective in how they see their system.

Subject 1: Nah we don't spar

Subject 2: There might be some sparring

Subject 3: So when do we start sparring

Out of the 3 videos which person is most likely to get the bulk of those who want to know how to fight?

And definitely not the system that is not providing the right tools to make students succeed.

I don't think it's the system, well in some cases it is, but in most it's not. Those Yellow Bamboo guys stuff isn't going work regardless of how hard a person trains.

But for the rest of the fighting systems. I definitely think it's the approach to training that makes all the difference. Fighters and people who actually train for actual use of techniques have similar training approaches even though they are training in different systems

 

[JowGaWolf]

One of my guys wants to compete in Sanda tournament. I ask him to run 3 miles daily before he even consider it.

It looks easy when we watch the competitions but the truth is so far from easy. Competition level fighting skills or just competition anything is not the same as showing up 3 days a week for 1 hour just for exercise.

 

[drop bear]

Yes and from what I can tell. I've been to both establishments and the environment doesn't even feel the same. For example, we would be hard press to go to a muay thai gym and have someone say "I'm just doing this for exercise because no one uses this stuff to fight with anymore." Now go to a TMA school and you'll easily find people who have that same belief.

There are restrictions and the restriction are based on how the school or gym markets itself. I could show examples for it but it would be against the rules here. I'll try to highlight with these videos but it doesn't show the marketing just the perspective in how they see their system.

Subject 1: Nah we don't spar

Subject 2: There might be some sparring

Subject 3: So when do we start sparring

Out of the 3 videos which person is most likely to get the bulk of those who want to know how to fight?


I don't think it's the system, well in some cases it is, but in most it's not. Those Yellow Bamboo guys stuff isn't going work regardless of how hard a person trains.

But for the rest of the fighting systems. I definitely think it's the approach to training that makes all the difference. Fighters and people who actually train for actual use of techniques have similar training approaches even though they are training in different systems

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

That place confuses me. The video gave me a bit of a mixed feel in terms of what they go for, but mostly "this is a place to get in shape, not to fight", but some of the stuff they said seemed like you could learn to actually fight there too. And the record of Nick (26 fights, 16 wins) and Albert (9 fights 9 wins) seemed to go with that. But then I looked at reviews, and they were mostly "family atmosphere", "friendly place", "good for beginners", "good for kids", "fun sparring". Then I looked at some of the videos and they seem legit. Definitely not what I'm used to seeing, and if this gym is normal for australia it explains a lot of the confusion/arguments I've seen on here.

Considering the different class types, my assumption is that the 'fight camp' classes have a very different atmosphere than the mixed classes. That atmosphere can be felt on the first time you visit a place, and I think it's what Jowga was talking about with people navigating towards a specific type of gym, in the way (I'm assuming) people would navigate to a 'fighting' class vs a 'mixed' class. Around here at least, you would almost never expect to see both in the same dojo/gym

 

[drop bear]

That place confuses me. The video gave me a bit of a mixed feel in terms of what they go for, but mostly "this is a place to get in shape, not to fight", but some of the stuff they said seemed like you could learn to actually fight there too. And the record of Nick (26 fights, 16 wins) and Albert (9 fights 9 wins) seemed to go with that. But then I looked at reviews, and they were mostly "family atmosphere", "friendly place", "good for beginners", "good for kids", "fun sparring". Then I looked at some of the videos and they seem legit. Definitely not what I'm used to seeing, and if this gym is normal for australia it explains a lot of the confusion/arguments I've seen on here.

Considering the different class types, my assumption is that the 'fight camp' classes have a very different atmosphere than the mixed classes. That atmosphere can be felt on the first time you visit a place, and I think it's what Jowga was talking about with people navigating towards a specific type of gym, in the way (I'm assuming) people would navigate to a 'fighting' class vs a 'mixed' class. Around here at least, you would almost never expect to see both in the same dojo/gym

If you want to get in shape you get in shape. If you want to fight you fight. If you want a social group it's a social group.

Fighters and hobbyists are the same people.

If you think you can't have all of that in one gym you are striving to be mediocre.

 

[JowGaWolf]

That place confuses me. The video gave me a bit of a mixed feel in terms of what they go for, but mostly "this is a place to get in shape, not to fight", but some of the stuff they said seemed like you could learn to actually fight there too. And the record of Nick (26 fights, 16 wins) and Albert (9 fights 9 wins) seemed to go with that. But then I looked at reviews, and they were mostly "family atmosphere", "friendly place", "good for beginners", "good for kids", "fun sparring". Then I looked at some of the videos and they seem legit. Definitely not what I'm used to seeing, and if this gym is normal for australia it explains a lot of the confusion/arguments I've seen on here.

Considering the different class types, my assumption is that the 'fight camp' classes have a very different atmosphere than the mixed classes. That atmosphere can be felt on the first time you visit a place, and I think it's what Jowga was talking about with people navigating towards a specific type of gym, in the way (I'm assuming) people would navigate to a 'fighting' class vs a 'mixed' class. Around here at least, you would almost never expect to see both in the same dojo/gym

I watched the video and counted how many times they said the term fighting /fight /fighters and I heard 6 or 7. I can go and use that comparison with some TMA schools and I feel pretty sure that one can pick a random school there wouldn't be the same embrace of the term fighting. Right off the back fighting doesn't sound bad in this video. From a TMA perspective, it almost always goes back to the spill about how to avoid fights, fighting, is no good. But if you have to fight you will be ready.

They sound similar to the approach that I took. From my experience it seems that's the only way it will work. A business can't force people who don't want to fight, how to fight. That just makes coming to class miserable.