Is Tigers Martial Arts Group dojo good?

[andyjeffries]

I agree with everything D Hall said, plus I would recommend you on the topic "certification/ watchdog organization or agency" to try a contact directly with World Taekowndo and ask a confirmation about Song Kyu Lee ranks.

If I were you I would send an e-mail to [email protected] or any other available on this page: World Taekwondo

I wouldn't message World Taekwondo, they are nothing to do with it. World Taekwondo has national associations as members only, not dojangs and not individual instructors. They are the sports organisation responsible for setting rules, organising competitions and referees. They're nothing to do with the martial arts side.

I know on their site they say "Acquired 8th grade of Tae Kwon Do Black Belt on April 5, 2015 from the World Taekwondo Federation, South Korea" but in reality he didn't - Kukkiwon is the organisation responsible for black belt certification, saying it came from WTF is just marketing license as people know "World Taekwondo" but less know "Kukkiwon".

If you have his country (likely Korea or USA) and can find his DOB, you can search for his dan rank at K.M.S Unifying the world with Taekwondo We are the KUKKIWON family however you have to be VERY accurate on how the name is written.

To get a personal certification of this organization costs so much

Kukkiwon 8th Dan fee is US$275. Not that much really (given that he'll have had at least 7 years from his last grading to save up that amount of money).

so I would expect them to keep a record of the members and at least have a quick way to assert if someone is a member or not.

He's DEFINITELY not a member of World Taekwondo. 200% for sure, unless he's "USA Taekwondo". As above, they only accept one organisation per country as their official member.

Kukkiwon definitely will have a record of the promotion, all their records are searchable online by anyway (although the form is AWFUL and the search needs work to make it more friendly).

 

[Dirty Dog]

I agree with everything D Hall said, plus I would recommend you on the topic "certification/ watchdog organization or agency" to try a contact directly with World Taekowndo and ask a confirmation about Song Kyu Lee ranks. To get a personal certification of this organization costs so much, so I would expect them to keep a record of the members and at least have a quick way to assert if someone is a member or not. Besides, I believe it is not disrespectifull to grandmaster Song Kyu Lee to double check who he is. If he is trully concerned about taekwondo teaching quality that would be a totally valid concern by someone like you.

If I were you I would send an e-mail to [email protected] or any other available on this page: World Taekwondo

That would be a completely useless thing to do, since WT doesn't have anything whatsoever to do with rank.

 

[andyjeffries]

Someone affiliated with the Kukkiwon may be able to answer this better.

There are no objective licensing organizations, so technically anyone can say they have whatever rank they want. The real question it seems you have is whether the school head is lying about his rank or not. Perhaps someone plugged in with Kukkiwon could help confirm his rank... but the absence of traceable (over the open internet) ranks are not necessarily proof of dishonesty.

For now and any future needs, I'm not Kukkiwon staff, but I'm about as affiliated as you can get beyond that And I'm always happy to help if I can.

(not trying to boast in case it comes across that way, but) just stating my Kukkiwon certifications: 6th Dan, 2nd Class Kukkiwon Master, 3rd Class Kukkiwon Examiner, 2 x Kukkiwon Commendation on the courses and 1 x Kukkiwon Citation.

The ones I'm missing for my collection: higher rank of course, 2nd Class Kukkiwon Examiner and Hanmadang P Class referee.

Higher rank - hopefully next year, next Examiner class - waiting to see what happens with that whole idea, Hanmadang referee not fussed really.

 

[J. Pickard]

So, you understand there are more costs to testing than just the belt. This includes lost revenue from classes that are not held during testing week, paying judges for their time, the cost of boards and certificates, etc.

Yeah, I get that. Did you even read my comment? My problem isn't with fees themselves it's with, and I say it again, exorbitant fees. Meaning students aren't getting what they are paying for and are just being milked for extra money.

What you say works fine for the 25% of students that get it right away. I'd rather do something that works for 75% and let the upper 25% get promoted quickly to where they're challenged, than do something that works for the top 25% and let the rest slip through our fingers.

If this is true from your experience then you are doing it wrong. We have been teaching sparring to beginners as early as their first class since 1991 and so far our record for injury due to this is 0% and nobody falls behind, quite the opposite, our students understand early on about the importance of control and being responsible for their partners safety. Typically due to this they develop a deeper understanding of the techniques sooner and consequently rank better in tournaments and stand out at seminars so nobody is "slipping through our fingers". I am also good friends with a Uechi Ryu instructor and their organization also starts sparring/sparring drills with opponents right away, same with the Shorin Ryu dojo and Olympic TKD dojang within 25 miles of my school. The idea that it's "too dangerous" to teach beginners how to actually use the techniques they are shown is absurd and just flat out wrong when done correctly. But regardless of all of this the most important part of #4 in my original post was the fact that if a school markets their program as "self defense" or "practical" for martial application but makes you wait 3-4 ranks (anywhere from 8 months to 1.5 years depending on the school) AND pay extra to learn how to spar then it's a scam and they only want your money.

 

[skribs]

Typically due to this they develop a deeper understanding of the techniques sooner and consequently rank better in tournaments and stand out at seminars so nobody is "slipping through our fingers".

You're telling me that everyone who joins your class stays in your class? Do you have any bridges I can buy?

 

[WaterGal]

Kukkiwon 8th Dan fee is US$275. Not that much really (given that he'll have had at least 7 years from his last grading to save up that amount of money).

Don't you have to fly to Korea to test at KKW in person for 8th dan? That trip from the US would probably cost a couple thousand dollars. (However, of course, that still has nothing to do with WT.)

 

[WaterGal]

For now and any future needs, I'm not Kukkiwon staff, but I'm about as affiliated as you can get beyond that And I'm always happy to help if I can.

(not trying to boast in case it comes across that way, but) just stating my Kukkiwon certifications: 6th Dan, 2nd Class Kukkiwon Master, 3rd Class Kukkiwon Examiner, 2 x Kukkiwon Commendation on the courses and 1 x Kukkiwon Citation.

The ones I'm missing for my collection: higher rank of course, 2nd Class Kukkiwon Examiner and Hanmadang P Class referee.

Higher rank - hopefully next year, next Examiner class - waiting to see what happens with that whole idea, Hanmadang referee not fussed really.

Oh, on a totally unrelated topic that this just made me think of - do you know if it's possible to order a replacement certificate for the master course? Mr WaterGal seems to have lost his when we moved, and I've been thinking it would be good to have it hung up in the school.

 

[andyjeffries]

Don't you have to fly to Korea to test at KKW in person for 8th dan? That trip from the US would probably cost a couple thousand dollars. (However, of course, that still has nothing to do with WT.)

Yes, currently 8th/9th Dan tests are in person at Kukkiwon. I must admit I wasn't thinking about travel from US because I don't live there. Still, was making the point that a lot of people are charged lots of money for 1st Dan in their own dojangs, but not to extrapolate that to a crazy price for the certification for higher dans.

 

[andyjeffries]

Oh, on a totally unrelated topic that this just made me think of - do you know if it's possible to order a replacement certificate for the master course? Mr WaterGal seems to have lost his when we moved, and I've been thinking it would be good to have it hung up in the school.

Definitely, I'm sure they'd do that. The current director of the WTA Oh Dae-young is the only person I know of in the WTA, but I'll PM you his contact details. I would assume (although don't put money on it) that the cost will be the same as a Dan certificate replacement - $15 was the fee for that last I heard ($15 in an envelope to Kukkiwon with a letter explaining you've lost it, name, dan certificate number - so they can identify you, etc).

 

[J. Pickard]

You're telling me that everyone who joins your class stays in your class? Do you have any bridges I can buy?

Never said that at all, like all schools we have a turnover rate measurably higher than 0% especially between ages 16 and 25. What I am saying is that it is not only possible to teach brand new students how to safely spar, but necessary if you are marketing as a self defense or "practical" martial art school. If you make students wait to spar because "it's too dangerous" it's either a lie to make the sparring seem more exclusive and hold on to students for a longer time that would otherwise quit or it's because the instructor that teaches sparring is inept at teaching beginners and it's dishonest marketing. If you say, "we wait to spar because we are not a fight school and are focused on building character through technique" (or something like that) AND you are NOT marketing that class as "self defense" or "practical" from a combat perspective then that's fine. But if you want students to get a deeper understanding of techniques from a practical standpoint then sparring and/or sparring drills are the best way to do it. You don't know if something works until you try it.

 

[skribs]

Never said that at all, like all schools we have a turnover rate measurably higher than 0% especially between ages 16 and 25. What I am saying is that it is not only possible to teach brand new students how to safely spar, but necessary if you are marketing as a self defense or "practical" martial art school. If you make students wait to spar because "it's too dangerous" it's either a lie to make the sparring seem more exclusive and hold on to students for a longer time that would otherwise quit or it's because the instructor that teaches sparring is inept at teaching beginners and it's dishonest marketing. If you say, "we wait to spar because we are not a fight school and are focused on building character through technique" (or something like that) AND you are NOT marketing that class as "self defense" or "practical" from a combat perspective then that's fine. But if you want students to get a deeper understanding of techniques from a practical standpoint then sparring and/or sparring drills are the best way to do it. You don't know if something works until you try it.

My point is you're simply making claims that you don't have the ability to support. You're going for an aggressive teaching style, which is going to leave behind the people who are uncoordinated (the people who honestly need martial arts the most). Your defense is "no, our people do well at tournaments." That defense doesn't address the people who were uncoordinated at the start. If anything, it suggests that you're mainly retaining the people with natural talent, and that those who need a more controlled approach at the start are in fact slipping through your fingers.

It would be like if someone complained about a business being greedy and not paying their employees what they're worth, and the CEO's retort is, "All of our program managers got huge bonuses this year."

 

[jks9199]

The Tiger MA schools I'm familiar with are part of a chain; I'm not sure what sort of franchise/connection they have between them. They're pretty typical heavy commercial martial arts schools. By that, I mean that they have a large "disguised day care" line to support their business, but that doesn't mean that any particular school doesn't have a real core of people serious about martial arts.

What do you want for your kids? What do you expect for the money they'll collect from you? Visit youth classes, visit adult classes, visit the before and after school activities. See if they make sense to you and if you like how they're run -- even if you don't expect to use any of those services. Why? Because how they do each aspect of their business will influence the rest... If you don't like how they run the daycare stuff, you'll probably find problems with the regular classes. In the same way -- if they do a great job on their adult classes, there's a good chance they'll have solid kids classes, too.

 

[J. Pickard]

My point is you're simply making claims that you don't have the ability to support. You're going for an aggressive teaching style, which is going to leave behind the people who are uncoordinated (the people who honestly need martial arts the most). Your defense is "no, our people do well at tournaments." That defense doesn't address the people who were uncoordinated at the start. If anything, it suggests that you're mainly retaining the people with natural talent, and that those who need a more controlled approach at the start are in fact slipping through your fingers.

It would be like if someone complained about a business being greedy and not paying their employees what they're worth, and the CEO's retort is, "All of our program managers got huge bonuses this year."

This is completely not the case at all. If we only retained the naturally talented students we would have shut down decades ago. Are all of our students A+ top competitors? Hell no. But not one can say they don't know what does or doesn't work for them in a physical conflict because they have all had the chance to try. That doesn't mean they are all good fighters, it does mean that not one will think that they are good fighters when they actually aren't. No false sense of security. They all know their limits and strengths without a doubt. Our retention is mostly the kids and teens that had no coordination because our area/township offers so many competitive team sports all of the naturally athletic and talented kids usually leave to go play those sports. My ability to support these claims is that we have been doing if for 30 years very successfully. We aren't the only school to do this. Every BJJ school I have ever seen you spar (roll) on week 1, the only school in our area that has been around longer than us is a Shorin Ryu school that has been around almost 40 years that also teaches sparring on the first week. It is a lie to say you can't teach beginners how to spar safely, REGARDLESS of skill and ability and it is a lie and irresponsible to say you teach self defense if you never test it and make people wait years before they even get the chance to. Period. QED. Full stop. It sounds like you have been either brainwashed into believing these lies or don't understand the point I'm trying to make. I'll sum it up in 2 sentences. If you claim to teach self defense/ practical combat arts you need to pressure test it immediately and not force people to pay extra years later in order to test it. If you don't make these claims then it doesn't matter if you spar at all.

 

[skribs]

Post #33 in this thread:

This is completely not the case at all. If we only retained the naturally talented students we would have shut down decades ago. Are all of our students A+ top competitors? Hell no....Our retention is mostly the kids and teens that had no coordination because our area/township offers so many competitive team sports all of the naturally athletic and talented kids usually leave to go play those sports.

Post #24 in this thread:

Typically due to this they develop a deeper understanding of the techniques sooner and consequently rank better in tournaments and stand out at seminars

Which one is accurate? Do you typically have standout students, or do you have a bunch of "not-A+" students?

Again from Post #33:

If you claim to teach self defense/ practical combat arts you need to pressure test it immediately and not force people to pay extra years later in order to test it. If you don't make these claims then it doesn't matter if you spar at all.

Way back in Post #10:

After about 3 months you should be sparring as a regular part of your curriculum for any class marketed as a practical martial art for self defense/protection.

Where are the goalposts? Is it immediate? Is it years? Is it 3 months?

You're the one accusing schools that are different from you of being a scam. That's a pretty bold accusation that shouldn't be made lightly. Yet, your definition of what is a scam changes from post to post, or even sentence-to-sentence.

Is it at all entirely possible to you that your way isn't the only way of doing things? That another method other than yours could be correct (without yours being incorrect)? That there are pros and cons to the different approaches, and it's not all just lopsided in your favor?

Oh, and this isn't just my idea. Most of the MMA guys I see posting say you shouldn't spar your first week, because newbies have a tendency to not understand the concept of "light" sparring. I also have read and heard from BJJ black belts who say that they don't recommend rolling the first week, due to the tendency to be a "spaz". If they do roll, it's with a veteran who isn't offering much resistance, and who is very careful that if the beginner does something incorrect, they're not going to hurt themselves (like roll over their own arm).

Compliant drills help you build form. You can start with compliant drills and work your way up to non-compliant sparring. For our students, this is a minimum of 4 months, but it could be as long as 2 years (depending on how long they take). Sometimes we go earlier, but I've seen injuries. Typically it's teenagers who resist a throw or wrist lock until they sprain something, because they're too stubborn to be thrown. In some cases, it's been athletic kids who don't understand their power or who kick to the head (not allowed for beginners), or kids who kick too low and kick the knee or groin. I've also heard from my Master of cases where athletic young adult students have gone ham on a heavy bag at home with improper form and completely wrecked their knee.

If you really have 0% injuries (Post #24) in 30+ years (Post #33), I would love to know how you teach white belts of all ages how to safely spar on day 1, and have had no injuries. However, I find this claim to be quite unlikely to be true. Injuries happen with any type of sport, and especially with contact sports.

I would agree with your accusation if it was that only premium classes can spar. I would also agree with your accusation if it was only after a few years (or similar; after red/brown belt) that you could spar. I disagree with your time limit of 3 months. I also think that for some students (particularly those who are extremely young or have certain personality disorders), it is going to be a year or two before they're ready to spar. Had you said you recommend starting sparring immediately, we could have discussed the pros and cons (as I mentioned above). But you didn't make a recommendation. You didn't look at the pros and cons of each side. You only looked at your way as correct, and everyone else is a scam.

 

[J. Pickard]

I would agree with your accusation if it was that only premium classes can spar. I would also agree with your accusation if it was only after a few years (or similar; after red/brown belt) that you could spar.

ffs, that was literally what the original point I made was. I even put the "it costs more" part in bold letters.

Which one is accurate? Do you typically have standout students, or do you have a bunch of "not-A+" students?

The great thing about the english language are all of the nuances, such as the word "typically" when applied to a sentence. You see if you put the two literal quote mines of yours together you can see that what I was saying is that most of our students typically (there is that nuanced word again meaning many but not all) become A+ students over time but many of them don't start that way. Regardless, if I want to train some one just to become more coordinated and have better overall athleticism I don't market it as self defense, we have a different class for that.

Where are the goalposts? Is it immediate? Is it years? Is it 3 months?

If you are asking me to define immediate, I would say within the first week. This is specifically pressure testing given drills through sparring exercises, which is different than free sparring. If done diligently should lead to being able to free spar against other students safely within about 3 months.

Compliant drills help you build form. You can start with compliant drills and work your way up to non-compliant sparring.

I agree, compliant drills help understand the basics of what you are doing, but why the hell would it take 4 months to pressure test these methods? Work on one thing until it works, pressure testing can then happen within the first week for that one thing.

You're the one accusing schools that are different from you of being a scam. That's a pretty bold accusation that shouldn't be made lightly. Yet, your definition of what is a scam changes from post to post, or even sentence-to-sentence.

My definition doesn't change at all, you missed the point and I stand by my accusation. It's not that they are "different" it's that they are dishonest be it intentionally or not. If you make people wait to test what they are learning and then charge them extra for it you are running a scam and are NOT teaching self defense. That's been consistently my point through all of this

If you really have 0% injuries (Post #24) in 30+ years (Post #33), I would love to know how you teach white belts of all ages how to safely spar on day 1, and have had no injuries.

Where are you located? I would be more than willing to give you a free seminar on this. Yeah injuries happen but, so far, it's never been when teaching beginners to spar. If it is an injury from sparring it's always been after they have been sparring for a few months or so and try something new and completely mess it up. Having 0% rate of injuries teaching beginners how to spar is not the same as just claiming 0% rate of injuries. While we don't get frequent injuries it is inevitable as you said. This is also why beginners are limited on what they can use in free sparring against other beginners. for example they can only test takedowns and submissions on black belts that know how to breakfall and when to tap but beginners can strike any target zone above the belt including the side of the head and forehead pad against other beginners.

Overall you have undoubtedly missed the original point I was making, which is dishonest marketing promoting a potentially dangerous false sense of security in students. If you promote your TKD training as "self defense" on day one but don't test it until several belts later and/or charge another large fee for it then you are running a scam and misleading students into believing that they have the capability to fight off an attacker when there is no way for them to have any idea if they actually can. Some people are natural fighters, but most are not and if they have never had someone throw a punch at them with intent to harm then they are gonna get rocked when they falsely believe they can fight and stand their ground due to false confidence when they should have run. It's all about honest marketing and not lying to get ahead. Don't tell people you are teaching them to fight when you don't actually let them try it. My dojang has recently acquired 2 new students from a different local dojang that was nothing more than a belt factory money machine. One student was an "orange belt" which from what they told me was roughly 7th gup with about 10 months training (they never used gup just belt colors) The other was a white belt, about a months training. they are 16 years old 11 years. Neither of them had ever sparred or tested their technique against a somewhat non-compliant opponent but both of them believed they could fight off an attacker, even one bigger than them, because they were told what they were learning at the belt mill dojang was self defense. At the other school you couldn't spar unless you paid for the "masters class" and that was only allowed to "green belt" and up. Their first night trialing our school, they borrowed some sparring gear and sparred for the first time. They had a lot of fun doing it but more importantly gained valuable insight into the reality of a physical conflict that they didn't previously have. they essentially learned they had been lied to for the entirety of their training. They signed up for our TMA class, which for adults (16+) includes 1 class per week dedicated to nothing but practical applications and sparring. When training younger kids (5-13), we never market it as self defense for what I hope is obvious reasons so when they spar it's essentially a light game of tag using punches and kicks.

If you genuinely believe that it is okay to market a TKD program as "self defense" but go months without ever testing it then you are doing your student's a disservice and are not honest in your marketing. I want to give you the benefit of the doubt and say this is a simple misunderstanding of terms because you seem like a reasonable individual.

My invitation to you to visit my dojang to show you how we teach sparring to beginners and share ideas is a sincere and genuine one so feel free to message me if you are actually interested and not just speaking in hyperbole.