Bujikan Dojo questions.

[kip42]

Do students of Bujikan learn all nine schools or is it a single school that one learns and gets a black belt in? What level of black belt do you need in order to be an official instructor at your own dojo?

How long does it take on average to earn a black belt in this art? Is the Bujikan a longer process than other arts such as Tae Kwon do?

I am especially interested in Koto Ryu but was not sure if I would specialize in this or learn all nine schools.

Where can I get reliable info on the nine schools?

Does the Bujikan encompass the principal of aliveness? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TL05Es8LVAQ&feature=related

 

[ScholarsInk]

Do students of Bujikan learn all nine schools or is it a single school that one learns and gets a black belt in? What level of black belt do you need in order to be an official instructor at your own dojo?

How long does it take on average to earn a black belt in this art? Is the Bujikan a longer process than other arts such as Tae Kwon do?

I am especially interested in Koto Ryu but was not sure if I would specialize in this or learn all nine schools.

Where can I get reliable info on the nine schools?

Does the Bujikan encompass the principal of aliveness? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TL05Es8LVAQ&feature=related

First things first, while there are a huge amount of crappy people in the Bujinkan, it is still a bit unkind to compare it with TKD (despite both arts' production of many incompetent yudansha). A Bujinkan 'black belt' will take you as long as you want it to. There are people like Richard Van Donk who will give you one for a quick payment of 400 bucks as well as others who will give you one for paying for them to visit your dojo. This is a big part of why we are seen as something of a joke among much of the wider martial arts community.

That being said, ignore 'the nine schools' - while Hatsumi-sensei is Soke of them, your training and ranking, should you study in the Bujinkan, will be in Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu - a gendai budo that has in a sense the 'essence' of Sensei's ryuha. Thus ranking will be along the lines of the judo kyu/dan system.

If you would like to study the individual schools, you might be better served by the Jinenkan, Genbukan or Myofu-an. They allow you to study the individual ryuha (though the Genbukan has a foundational curriculum that must be studied first to I think sandan).

I would suggest you read an FAQ, as most of your questions have been asked a million times.

 

[jks9199]

Y'know... I don't often do this but how about starting with the stuff that we've locked to the top of the ninjutsu forums, like Newbies posting on Ninjutsu, Please Read ? You may well find many of your answers there...

 

[kip42]

I was thinking the Bujikan was more strict and pure as to the strictness of the students. I thought this b.c you have to be a member of the Bujikan to teach and be a student.

 

[ScholarsInk]

I was thinking the Bujikan was more strict and pure as to the strictness of the students. I thought this b.c you have to be a member of the Bujikan to teach and be a student.

That membership requirement is the case for all of the organisations.

As for your first sentence, I didn't understand it. I have no idea what "strict and pure as to the strictness" is supposed to mean.

 

[Bruno@MT]

I was thinking the Bujikan was more strict and pure as to the strictness of the students. I thought this b.c you have to be a member of the Bujikan to teach and be a student.

Excuse me while I ROFLMAO....

.
.
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The Bujinkan is many things, and there are many outstanding martial artists in the Bujinkan, some of which are also members on this forum. But strict, it is anything but.

You have to be a Bujinkan member in order to be able to learn and teach in the Bujinkan... right. But this applies to any organization. Bujinkan is anything but strict. Anyone can become a member, do whatever he wants, and he or she will not be kicked out no matter what he does. In fact, you can follow a video course and get up to 4th dan.

If you want strict and pure, Genbukan is what you are looking for. That does not mean it is better, it just means that Genbukan is much stricter in everything.

Take note that I don't say it is better. Personally I like the Genbukan better because that is the kind of person I am and because I like that strict structure. Others may prefer Bujinkan or Jinenkan. I believe that for the purposes of learning ninpo, all 3 can get you to the same place via a different road.

 

[Chris Parker]

Okay, this one.

Do students of Bujikan learn all nine schools or is it a single school that one learns and gets a black belt in? What level of black belt do you need in order to be an official instructor at your own dojo?

The Bujinkan does not teach the individual Ryu, really. It teaches Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu, a comprehensive approach to the essence of combative arts (Budo) according to Hatsumi Sensei, taking it's methods from a variety of classical sources (the aforementioned Nine Schools...). You are ranked in Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu.

You can become a full instructor at 5th Dan (Godan), at which point you can become a member of the Shidoshikai (Teachers Group), although that is by no means manditory. Lower ranks can teach under the authority of a Shidoshi.

How long does it take on average to earn a black belt in this art? Is the Bujikan a longer process than other arts such as Tae Kwon do?

I've heard as long as a decade or more, or as short as a few weeks (I've actually heard shorter... but that's another story). Every art is it's own journey, comparing them is like asking if it takes longer to become an Italian chef or a French one.

I am especially interested in Koto Ryu but was not sure if I would specialize in this or learn all nine schools.

As I asked elsewhere, why? What do you really know about Koto Ryu? The only way to know these arts is to experience them, without that you aren't really in a place to have preferences, honestly.

And in the Bujinkan you won't really learn any of them. Occasionally you may study a particular one for a while, but it is more that you continue to study Budo Taijutsu through one of the schools kata, but due to the homogenisation of the system, aspects kinda blend. Few will actually teach Gyokko kamae versus Koto kamae, for instance, as that actually works against the concept of learning Budo Taijutsu, which is what you are meant to be doing there.

Where can I get reliable info on the nine schools?

Well, here, really:http://martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=86804. You may notice that that is one of the stickies at the beginning of this forum itself.

Does the Bujikan encompass the principal of aliveness? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TL05Es8LVAQ&feature=related

Oh, for the sake of all the gods in heaven and below... if you really want, I can rip Matt Thornton's little uneducated commercial apart in a heartbeat, but there's little point. Suffice to say he doesn't say anything revolutionary, he has buzz-word concepts, he doesn't really know how kata is supposed to be done, and he is very lacking in what he thinks is really needed.

But to answer your question, depends entirely on the instructor. You really need to understand that the Bujinkan really has no standards or even base syllabus, so what is taught, and how it is taught, is largely up to the instructor in question. Some will be good, others will be far less. And the good will incorporate a large number of the aspects mentioned in Matt's clip, he really isn't anything new.

 

[asuki]

i think it depends on your dojo. where i train my instructor is allowing us to choose a school that we like and we can somewhat focus on. this does not mean we will not learn things from the other schools. i like this idea.

 

[Hudson69]

First things first, while there are a huge amount of crappy people in the Bujinkan, it is still a bit unkind to compare it with TKD (despite both arts' production of many incompetent yudansha). A Bujinkan 'black belt' will take you as long as you want it to. There are people like Richard Van Donk who will give you one for a quick payment of 400 bucks as well as others who will give you one for paying for them to visit your dojo. This is a big part of why we are seen as something of a joke among much of the wider martial arts community.

It that a slam on TKD? I know a lot of TKD schools are sport oriented but at least they allow sparring. ---Budo Taijutsu might as well be Tai Chi from my experience and that comes from seeing the old Ninjutsu hard, physical training and the new "randori is never allowed" schools.

TKD and BBT have solid streetable (is that a word) techniques but you have to find the school that will teach them in that manner.

My .02 only

 

[kip42]

I am essentially looking for an art that will teach me how to be a warrior and survive whatever I am up against. I would enjoy learning the battle tested version that evolved through hundreds of years of combat. I also would like if the movement are still as effective today as they where a long time ago. I want a straight forward fight stopping art that will teach me as much of what the ancient ninja knew as possible. I would really like to well round it with the stealth and agility abilities.

I didnt realize there was other forms of what the Ninja took other than the Bujikan.

 

[kip42]

I have a friend who is a black belt in Koto Rye. The movements seem natural and straight forward.

So essentially the Bujikan is a combination of nine arts? I would learn all nine as I move through and not really focuss on one? Would this be like going to high school and learning math, english, science, history in the Bujikan while other single traditional arts would be like going to graduate school and foccusing on one major with no minor classes?

I hope I can find the most realistic approach to ninjitsu as in finishing the fight and escaping alive.

 

[Cryozombie]

I want a straight forward fight stopping art that will teach me as much of what the ancient ninja knew as possible.

Good luck with that one... perhaps you want to try Budo Ryu instead.

%-}

Yes Yes, I know I'm a bad person.

 

[jks9199]

It's been said before -- but I'm going to reiterate it.

It's not about the art; it's all about how you train. Shooting a person with a .40 semiauto pistol will kill them. But not everyone can make that shot under combat conditions if they've only trained on a firing line shooting paper targets.

Tai chi is often considered one of the least "martial" martial arts. But there are a relative handful of people out there who train it with an emphasis on understanding it's martial functions, rather than simply some sort of ultra low impact aerobics with new age ideas. They'll put you on your *** faster and harder than you'd believe if you haven't seen it... In the same way, the Bujinkan and the nine schools that form its basis can be incredibly effective or little more than a weird take at Japanese square dancing. I can say the same about any other art you care to mention, incidentally. Krav Maga is a bluntly effective, in-your-face style that's as subtle as a baseball bat to the face... but if you don't train it with that sort of attitude, you might as well be doing Taebo.

My advice to you is simple: Look at what's available in your area, that fits your schedule and that you can afford. Visit each school. Look at the students, and look at the training. When you find a group that you want to both belong to and look like as you fight... train there.

 

[Bruno@MT]

It's not about the art; it's all about how you train. Shooting a person with a .40 semiauto pistol will kill them. But not everyone can make that shot under combat conditions if they've only trained on a firing line shooting paper targets.

And regardless of how you train, there are enough people who will simply never be able pull the trigger if someone is standing in front of their gun, no matter what, no matter how good a shot they are.

I have a friend who is a black belt in Koto Rye. The movements seem natural and straight forward.

Either you misunderstood or your friend was not being entirely truthful.
The nine schools (or any of the other traditional Japanese schools) don't work with a belt system. And within the Bujinkan, no licensing of individual systems is granted to westerners IIRC. You learn parts of the nine schools but you can't grade in them.

So essentially the Bujikan is a combination of nine arts? I would learn all nine as I move through and not really focuss on one? Would this be like going to high school and learning math, english, science, history in the Bujikan while other single traditional arts would be like going to graduate school and foccusing on one major with no minor classes?

I hope I can find the most realistic approach to ninjitsu as in finishing the fight and escaping alive.

Essentially, yes.
You enroll in Genbukan, Bujinkan or Jinenkan if you want to learn things that are part of authentic ninjutsu systems. But in all 3 systems you will have to realize that the amount of 'ninja' content is very low compared to the other things you will learn. Before you get to learn anything advanced that is ninjutsu specific, you will have spent a looooong time training.

Your last sentence is also incorrect. The whole idea in ninjutsu is only to escape alive. Finishing the fight is not the main goal. And according to Hatsumi sensei, fighting was the least useful skill of the ninja. If you had to fight, you had already screwed up.

 

[Chris Parker]

Hi again.

I am essentially looking for an art that will teach me how to be a warrior and survive whatever I am up against.

Without knowing your age, location. etc, I can't really say what you will be up against, but.....

Being a warrior is as much internal strength and conviction of your values and beliefs as anything else, and that can come from pretty much any (legit) art (for the record, I was reading a thread on a modern Bujinkan based organisation from another forum, the thread itself from about three years ago, where this organisation essentially had no understanding of propriety when it came to martial arts, no idea of koryu, what made a martial art, what personal property the kata of each are, and was essentially stealing the kata of a very well known Kenjutsu system [incredibly badly!!!], and claiming it as being made up by themselves. Not someone to go to to learn anything with integrity, to my mind....).

As far as surviving anything you may come up against, you may need to revisit the reality of this. I'll explain in a little bit.

I would enjoy learning the battle tested version that evolved through hundreds of years of combat. I also would like if the movement are still as effective today as they where a long time ago.

Right. Here's the thing, though, the actual kata (techniques) of the various Ryu are really not "battle tested" nor have they "evolved over hundreds of years of combat". The kata are realistically symbolic representations of the strategies and tactics represented by the teachings of the school itself. For instance, the second kata of Gyokko Ryu is called Renyo, and is an extension of the concepts of the first, Koku, which deals with managing distance and angles properly against a continuing attack. Renyo teaches methods for dealing with the three common unarmed assaults; Punching, Kicking, and Grappling, as well as handling resistance to your technique. It teaches evasive movement and angling, counter-striking, changes of direction to amplify the effect of limb controls, and much much more.

But it is not a "practical real life fighting technique", nor is it meant to be. It is only meant to impart it's lessons, and it does that through the medium of physical combative techniques. This is the way martial arts really teach, by the way, with techniques that are symbollic representations, not with "Answer A to Attack 12".

When it comes to whether or not the movements are "as effective today as they were a long time ago", well, yes and no. But more no, to be honest. And the reason is not that the techniques don't work, that they are ineffective, or anything like it. It is more to do with the fact that the techniques are designed against attacks from another place and time (for example, a standard attack is a stepping lunge punch, whereas today you are far more likely to come up against a stepping hook, or a rear cross; another common attack is to grab the lapel with the left hand, then step forward with your right leg as you punch to the head with a right punch, whereas today the punch is most likely going to have no step). Now, before you say "oh, but that doesn't sound so different....", realise that that change completely alters the body shape you are dealing with, the direction of the power, the available targets, the angles and ranges you will need to deal with, and far more. Add to that the frequent techniques against swords or other weapon attacks, and ask yourself how likely is it that you will need unarmed sword defence over your life (and again, before you bring up a machette, realise that the attacks of a machette are vastly different to a trained swordsmans attack).

So do they still work just as well? Yes. But they haven't "evolved", as the idea of training in a traditional system is to preserve the art as well as possible. And they don't work against modern attacks and assaults. On the other hand, the principles, strategies and tactics that the arts teach do, if you understand them well enough...

I want a straight forward fight stopping art that will teach me as much of what the ancient ninja knew as possible. I would really like to well round it with the stealth and agility abilities.

Straight forward and fight stopping? Go for boxing. Ninjutsu really can't be described properly like that, it is an exhaustive body on knowledge, giving an incredible range of strategies and tactics, with a very broad range of environments and ranges that it deals with. Oh, and it's highly unlikely that you will deal much with the stealth aspects, and agility will really be far less focused on than you may think.

And really, what do you think the ancient ninja knew? Try to realise that the highly romanticised image out there is far from the reality. I suggest you worry far less about the "ninja" aspect, as that will simply take you further and further away from what these arts can actually offer you, if you end up studying it.

I didnt realize there was other forms of what the Ninja took other than the Bujikan.

Er, not really sure what you're meaning with this sentence here.... Are you saying that you were unaware of other Ninjutsu organisations? If so, just so you know, the Bujinkan is the organisation headed by Hatsumi Sensei, the Genbukan is headed by his former most senior student, Tanemura Sensei, and the Jinenkan is headed by Hatsumi's oldest-training student, Manaka Sensei. Add to that various split-off organisations (such as the one that I teach in), some more legit than others, and quite a few with little to no ties to anything close to authentic whatsoever. If you stick with the Big Three (Bujinkan, Genbukan, Jinenkan), then what you learn will be authentic. See the stickies for more of a breakdown of these organisations' similarities and differences.

I have a friend who is a black belt in Koto Rye. The movements seem natural and straight forward.

Incredibly doubtful. I have never heard of anyone, from any organisation, being awarded a black belt in any individual system. If you learn an individual one in the Genbukan, for instance, you will be graded in a traditional Menkyo system, not a Kyu/Dan grade format. Someone claiming to hold a black belt in Koto Ryu is most likely telling far less than the truth.

I could ask any number of questions about their training in Koto Ryu, such as getting you to ask them to describe the movements and reasons for them in Yokuto, but really, such info can be gotten from a simple web search, so I'm less inclined to ask these days....

So essentially the Bujikan is a combination of nine arts? I would learn all nine as I move through and not really focuss on one? Would this be like going to high school and learning math, english, science, history in the Bujikan while other single traditional arts would be like going to graduate school and foccusing on one major with no minor classes?

No (sorry, Bruno!), that is not correct. The Bujinkan's teachings are refered to as Budo Taijutsu, which is it's own seperate and distinct martial art, created from the teachings of various traditional Ryu-ha. But you do not learn all nine as you move through, in fact it is highly doubtful that you would learn three of them at all, in any fashion (Gyokushin, Kumogakure, Gikan). At certain times, ann instructor may choose to teach lessons by using the kata of a particular Ryu, but that is very different from learning the Ryu itself, especially as the kata are used to explore Budo Taijutsu, not the Ryu they come from. This is a major reason that it is highly doubtful that your friend really has a black belt in Koto Ryu. It doesn't exist.

It is also not like going to school and having different classes in different subjects, as your education in the Bujinkan doesn't seperate out the different Ryu in that way (the way that school has English taught seperately to maths, for example), and individual study in a single Ryu really isn't covered in the Bujinkan other than through individual interest, so it's not like going to graduate school either.

The closest I can think of is MMA. If you train in MMA, you are not training in BJJ or kickboxing, but both those will give a great deal of technical detail to what you do in training. But being an accomlished MMA fighter does not make you a BJJ anything, let alone a black belt. Same with the Bujinkan, by training in it, you are not getting a black belt in Koto Ryu, although that will make up a fair degree of your training methods, as will Gyokko, Takagi Yoshin, Shinden Fudo, and Kukishinden, as well as Togakure (to a lesser degree, though).

I hope I can find the most realistic approach to ninjitsu as in finishing the fight and escaping alive.

I'm not fond of repeating myself, and this'll be the third time. Ninjutsu, not ninjitsu, okay? One is correct, the other is used by people who don't have any understanding of the arts, and shows their ignorance. Your first lesson is in spelling. Got it? Good.

The most realistic approach to training in Ninjutsu is to recognise that it is a historical system, so it is not geared up for modern street combat "straight out of the box", as it were. It is also highly realistic to expect to learn things that you don't necessarily see the value of, and to need to spend a long time before real skill is developed. And you really should be prepared for it to not be what you think it is, should you actually visit a school. And really, that should be your next step. Go visit a school, you may find that what you see there is more than you expect, or that it is nothing that interests you at all.

Okay?

 

[Bruno@MT]

So essentially the Bujikan is a combination of nine arts? I would learn all nine as I move through and not really focuss on one? Would this be like going to high school and learning math, english, science, history in the Bujikan while other single traditional arts would be like going to graduate school and foccusing on one major with no minor classes?

No (sorry, Bruno!), that is not correct. The Bujinkan's teachings are refered to as Budo Taijutsu, which is it's own seperate and distinct martial art, created from the teachings of various traditional Ryu-ha. But you do not learn all nine as you move through, in fact it is highly doubtful that you would learn three of them at all, in any fashion (Gyokushin, Kumogakure, Gikan). At certain times, ann instructor may choose to teach lessons by using the kata of a particular Ryu, but that is very different from learning the Ryu itself, especially as the kata are used to explore Budo Taijutsu, not the Ryu they come from. This is a major reason that it is highly doubtful that your friend really has a black belt in Koto Ryu. It doesn't exist.

IIRC Bujinkan is a system composed of elements / content / principles of the nine schools, right? So you'll get a general education of things contained in those nine (with the caveats you already mentioned) schools without necessarily being taught the entire ryuha or a specific subsection?

This was how I meant my post. Genbukan follows a similar approach, in that until black belt, you get taught the standard Genbukan ninpo curriculum which is made up from the techniques / principles from various ruyha without necessarily being identified as such or being taught within that context.

I agree that the comparison with high school vs graduate school is not entirely correct in that the ryuha are not taught separately, but is is correct in the way that at the end of high school, you'll have learned various bits and pieces from different ryuha without having graduated or done in depth study of in any specific one.

At least that was my understanding.

 

[Chris Parker]

Yeah, I was focusing more on the "actually learn all nine Ryu" aspect, in regards to learning them seperately similar to a school curriculum (multiple subject learned seperately), as that really isn't how it is. And, although Gyokushin, Kumogakure and Gikan get mentioned every now and then, its not entirely certain how much of each are seen in the general Bujinkan teachings. The only stuff I've seen from Hatsumi Sensei is at the end of the Koppojutsu DVD (essentially the old Koto Ryu VHS with some new footage and the new end feauring aspects of these schools) and occasional mention. I believe there is also a tape or DVD of the Kihon Happo with a Gyokushin Ryu "feel" from after a Tai Kai in Spain a decade and a half or so ago, but that's about it.

Realistically, I think it's safer to say the Bujinkan, technically speaking at least, is based primarily on the Gyokko Ryu, Koto Ryu, Takagi Yoshin Ryu, Shinden Fudo Ryu, Kukishinden Ryu, Togakure Ryu, and Ten Chi Jin Ryaku no Maki, although Hatsumi Sensei has been known to bring out some of his other studies from time to time, such as Bokuden Ryu or Asayama Ichiden Ryu, but that is a rarity from what I understand.

I do agree that you'll have bits of the various Ryu techniques, but as I said learning the kata is really not the same as studying the Ryu itself. And the way I read Kip42's post was that he would be learning the individual Ryu-ha separately separate subjects (hence the high school simile). And in that regard, he was incorrect.

 

[Tez3]

That membership requirement is the case for all of the organisations.

As for your first sentence, I didn't understand it. I have no idea what "strict and pure as to the strictness" is supposed to mean.

Perhaps they are into spanking each other? if you get the cool 'ninja' uniform too as seen in films and the television I want in! sounds suitably decandent and as likely as the OPs version of ''ninjitsu'' :ultracool

 

[ScholarsInk]

First things first, while there are a huge amount of crappy people in the Bujinkan, it is still a bit unkind to compare it with TKD (despite both arts' production of many incompetent yudansha). A Bujinkan 'black belt' will take you as long as you want it to. There are people like Richard Van Donk who will give you one for a quick payment of 400 bucks as well as others who will give you one for paying for them to visit your dojo. This is a big part of why we are seen as something of a joke among much of the wider martial arts community.

It that a slam on TKD? I know a lot of TKD schools are sport oriented but at least they allow sparring. ---Budo Taijutsu might as well be Tai Chi from my experience and that comes from seeing the old Ninjutsu hard, physical training and the new "randori is never allowed" schools.

TKD and BBT have solid streetable (is that a word) techniques but you have to find the school that will teach them in that manner.

My .02 only

It is indeed a slam on TKD. Firstly, TKD is very dishonest - it's simply karate with Korean terminology that claims to be an ancient Korean MA. In that sense, Kyokushin is the real TKD in that it was founded by a Korean but he never claimed it was anything but karate.

It also is probably the most McDojoised MA in the world. Most karate schools these days are also McDojos, but usually in a given city you'll be able to find at least one legitimate karate school. In contrast, while I'm sure they exist, I have yet to find a non-McDojo TKD school (in any place I've lived, and I've moved quite a lot).

I remember that by fifth grade, all my friends in TKD and krotty were already "black belts" - did this translate to any actual skill? No. Their parents just paid exorbitant fees for after-school McBudo.

Furthermore, TKD sparring consists of tapping the other guy with your leg while your arms are at your side - it's nothing like MMA, judo, Kyokushin, BJJ, Enshin, Muay Thai et cetera which are more-or-less full contact and based on knockdown/submission rather than points.

I'm sure a good TKD guy will have good kicks - but put him in the ring with a Kyokushin guy and, nine times out of ten, he's going down.

Sport-oriented isn't necessarily a problem in and of itself. Judo was an Olympic sport long before TKD was, but it's still quite intense. Part of this is probably the fact that while you can kick lightly, it's pretty hard to throw lightly.

Does this change the fact that many of us in the Bujinkan couldn't fight our way out of a retirement home (why someone would be doing this I don't know; it is purely hypothetical)? No, but a TKD guy probably wouldn't fare much better. If you want to use a counterexample art to show benefits of harder training, TKD is not it.

 

[Hudson69]

It is indeed a slam on TKD. Firstly, TKD is very dishonest - it's simply karate with Korean terminology that claims to be an ancient Korean MA. In that sense, Kyokushin is the real TKD in that it was founded by a Korean but he never claimed it was anything but karate.

It also is probably the most McDojoised MA in the world. Most karate schools these days are also McDojos, but usually in a given city you'll be able to find at least one legitimate karate school. In contrast, while I'm sure they exist, I have yet to find a non-McDojo TKD school (in any place I've lived, and I've moved quite a lot).

I remember that by fifth grade, all my friends in TKD and krotty were already "black belts" - did this translate to any actual skill? No. Their parents just paid exorbitant fees for after-school McBudo.

Furthermore, TKD sparring consists of tapping the other guy with your leg while your arms are at your side - it's nothing like MMA, judo, Kyokushin, BJJ, Enshin, Muay Thai et cetera which are more-or-less full contact and based on knockdown/submission rather than points.

I'm sure a good TKD guy will have good kicks - but put him in the ring with a Kyokushin guy and, nine times out of ten, he's going down.

Sport-oriented isn't necessarily a problem in and of itself. Judo was an Olympic sport long before TKD was, but it's still quite intense. Part of this is probably the fact that while you can kick lightly, it's pretty hard to throw lightly.

Does this change the fact that many of us in the Bujinkan couldn't fight our way out of a retirement home (why someone would be doing this I don't know; it is purely hypothetical)? No, but a TKD guy probably wouldn't fare much better. If you want to use a counterexample art to show benefits of harder training, TKD is not it.

Bitter much? I understand that you might have travelled a lot but try Korea. I am not a TKD stylist, my background is primarily American Kenpo and Budo Taijutsu but I have thrown down with some TKD guys in my time and they can fight with the best of them so I am unsure as to where the animosity comes from.

As far as the "Can't fight out of a retirement home." remark well then, again, you need to find another school someone who trained in Bujinkan Ninjutsu prior to around '90 or so because my very first instructor was rough and tumble and it was a lot of hands on randori not like the current (in the two schools I have been in only) "No touchy, no touchy!" mentallity.

Dont get me wrong I have seen a lot of TKD dojangs that are sport only so you have a couple of options: dont attend, take it to learn excellent kicking techniques not to become black belt/promoter of the school, or find another school that is taught by a ROK Marine, ROK Army or someone else that has skills that will work in the real world. Just like with Budo Taijutsu or someone no longer teaching Budo Taijutsu but the old school ninjutsu.

My .02 only.