Is there a connection between Hapkido and Kuk Sool?

[Kumbajah]

Omar's got it. There are arts that are legally protected under copyright law. (or if you use your teachers name etc) Kuk Sool Won and Hwarangdo come to mind. If you open a Kuk Sool Won school you have to do things their way and usually have to pay a fee (testing etc) to the head office. If you decide that you don't want to answer to the head office you can't call yourself Kuk Sool Won any longer. You are out of the fold.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

Is this how the Kukkiwon and WTF work? I heard that the testing fees for black belts cost an arm and a leg.

No, this is not how the Kukkiwon and WTF work.

The Kukkiwon establishes minimum test requirements and establishes what techniques and hyung/poomsae/forms are a part of Kukki taekwondo. Anyone can use and teach the techniques and forms. If you want to be a registered Kukkiwon yudanja, then you must meet the minimum requirements set by the Kukkiwon, which includes knowing Taegeuk Poomsae iljang through paljang.

The individual school is free to make additional requirements. Any Kukkiwon Yudanja of fourth dan and higher may sign dan certificates. One can only promote to two dans beneath their own. Thus a fourth dan cannot furnish a student a Kukkiwon certificate higher than second dan.

The WTF regulates sport taekwondo and has nothing whatsoever to do with ranks. One does not have membership in the WTF. One has membership in the national affiliate, which in the United States, is USAT.

There is no franchise with the KKW/WTF. If you want your student to be Kukki Certified, send in the student's paperwork and the registration fee of 120.00 and sign off on the student being proficient in the minimum requirements and the Kukkiwon will furnish you with 14x8 certificate in your student's name with you as the certifying master.

It should be noted that schools often charge over and above the Kukkiwon registration fee of 120.00. That gold stitched belt is not free after all, nor is the master's time. Some charge a lot more and do nothing more than conduct a test and send in paperwork. Others charge a lot more, but give you lots of cool stuff to go with your certificate (our school does this, furnishing a high end dobok, gold stitched belt, and other miscellany). Some charge just enough over to cover the cost of the test (the masters' time, cost of a rented facility in some cases).

If you do not care about Kukki certification and just want to teach taekwondo, then you are more than welcome to teach taegeuk forms and the body of techniques used in Kukki taekwondo, plus whatever else you would like. Your students' rank will simply not be recognized by the Kukkiwon.

Sorry for the lengthy answer!

Daniel

 

[shesulsa]

Here's a link to the contract Bob Duggan posted on his site in regards to WHRDA. It is an example to be studied when considering copyrighted styles, intelligent property and franchising in the martial arts.

 

[Kittan Bachika]

That's his point man, Kuk Sool was formulated and created by a singular individual. Kinda like Col Sanders used to do with his chicken recipes before he started KFC. Restaurants all over the south, then the whole country would gladly pay for his fryer, seasoning mix, etc for the privilege of selling Col Sander's Chicken and display the sign outside.

I understand the point, man. But I am trying to clarify the school/ style issue. Kuk Sool is a style of martial art. But if you open up a storefront martial arts school but under a different name but use the Kuk sool curriculm, Kuk Sool can't touch you.

Omar's got it. There are arts that are legally protected under copyright law. (or if you use your teachers name etc) Kuk Sool Won and Hwarangdo come to mind. If you open a Kuk Sool Won school you have to do things their way and usually have to pay a fee (testing etc) to the head office. If you decide that you don't want to answer to the head office you can't call yourself Kuk Sool Won any longer. You are out of the fold.

If you are opening a Shotokan Karate school, Funakoshi's descendants can't come after you since the name of the art is in the public domain.

As I stated before, if a student leaves his school and starts another school and no money is exchanged, is it still a franchise? An example I can think of is when people move to another state and they have the skills to actually teach a class and they get the blessing of their teacher to start their own school or group. I do not think that is a franchise since no money is exchanged.

 

[Kittan Bachika]

Mea culpa for the double post. I really wanted to respond to these posters. Yeah. I should have done it in the first post.

No, this is not how the Kukkiwon and WTF work.

The Kukkiwon establishes minimum test requirements and establishes what techniques and hyung/poomsae/forms are a part of Kukki taekwondo. Anyone can use and teach the techniques and forms. If you want to be a registered Kukkiwon yudanja, then you must meet the minimum requirements set by the Kukkiwon, which includes knowing Taegeuk Poomsae iljang through paljang.

The individual school is free to make additional requirements. Any Kukkiwon Yudanja of fourth dan and higher may sign dan certificates. One can only promote to two dans beneath their own. Thus a fourth dan cannot furnish a student a Kukkiwon certificate higher than second dan.

The WTF regulates sport taekwondo and has nothing whatsoever to do with ranks. One does not have membership in the WTF. One has membership in the national affiliate, which in the United States, is USAT.

There is no franchise with the KKW/WTF. If you want your student to be Kukki Certified, send in the student's paperwork and the registration fee of 120.00 and sign off on the student being proficient in the minimum requirements and the Kukkiwon will furnish you with 14x8 certificate in your student's name with you as the certifying master.

It should be noted that schools often charge over and above the Kukkiwon registration fee of 120.00. That gold stitched belt is not free after all, nor is the master's time. Some charge a lot more and do nothing more than conduct a test and send in paperwork. Others charge a lot more, but give you lots of cool stuff to go with your certificate (our school does this, furnishing a high end dobok, gold stitched belt, and other miscellany). Some charge just enough over to cover the cost of the test (the masters' time, cost of a rented facility in some cases).

If you do not care about Kukki certification and just want to teach taekwondo, then you are more than welcome to teach taegeuk forms and the body of techniques used in Kukki taekwondo, plus whatever else you would like. Your students' rank will simply not be recognized by the Kukkiwon.

Sorry for the lengthy answer!

Daniel

No. Thank you for the lengthy answer. It explains how the Kukkiwon stays in business and why certain TKD places make so money. I always thought it was the Kukkiwon that made the prices it was in fact that some of these TKD schools raised the prices for these certificates. Kukkiwon makes its money since there is probably a ton of people testing for their black belts.

Here's a link to the contract Bob Duggan posted on his site in regards to WHRDA. It is an example to be studied when considering copyrighted styles, intelligent property and franchising in the martial arts.

Thanks. I remember reading this awhile back and some other interesting information about WHRDA. The founder has a very colorful history. Whether it is relevant, well....

 

[Omar B]

I understand the point, man. But I am trying to clarify the school/ style issue. Kuk Sool is a style of martial art. But if you open up a storefront martial arts school but under a different name but use the Kuk sool curriculm, Kuk Sool can't touch you.

If you are opening a Shotokan Karate school, Funakoshi's descendants can't come after you since the name of the art is in the public domain.

As I stated before, if a student leaves his school and starts another school and no money is exchanged, is it still a franchise? An example I can think of is when people move to another state and they have the skills to actually teach a class and they get the blessing of their teacher to start their own school or group. I do not think that is a franchise since no money is exchanged.

I'll clear it up for you, Kuk Sool Won is the name of the style and the school as well as the intellectual property of the founder. Much like the name of my school and style are both Seido Karate.

If you open up a school as a private person under the name Kuk Sool Won then they can take action against you. if you open something named Kuk Sool or something of the sort, it's a bit more tricky, you have to prove that the curriculum being taught is the same one from the other.

 

[Kittan Bachika]

I'll clear it up for you, Kuk Sool Won is the name of the style and the school as well as the intellectual property of the founder. Much like the name of my school and style are both Seido Karate.

If you open up a school as a private person under the name Kuk Sool Won then they can take action against you. if you open something named Kuk Sool or something of the sort, it's a bit more tricky, you have to prove that the curriculum being taught is the same one from the other.

I still don't get it.

Joking. So in Kuk Sool's case the name of the style and school are one and the same.

So you practice Seido Karate? Interesting. Nakamura would have a lot to say about this topic considering what he experienced when he left Oyama and founded his own school.

 

[Omar B]

Maybe you should do some research on franchise law rather than us try to explain something to you that you clearly seem to not understand after almost 2 pages.

Nakamura would not care what this topic says, I know the man. It's not a case of his leaving Kyokushin and just re-branding it, Seido is similar, but appreciably different (hence the completely different name rather than using something that sounds just like Kyokushin) ... if it were not he would have just established his own Kyokushin organization, like many others.

 

[Kittan Bachika]

Maybe you should do some research on franchise law rather than us try to explain something to you that you clearly seem to not understand after almost 2 pages

Thank you very much for that suggestion. I am not sure it will help since as you pointed out it has taken me two pages to get to this point. Can you imagine me in a law library?

Nakamura would not care what this topic says, I know the man.

Well I wouldn't know if Nakamura cared or not. I haven't heard from him since I never asked him. Then again we have never met. But I will take your word for it since you know him.

It's not a case of his leaving Kyokushin and just re-branding it, Seido is similar, but appreciably different (hence the completely different name rather than using something that sounds just like Kyokushin) ... if it were not he would have just established his own Kyokushin organization, like many others.

There was never any mention of Nakumura re-branding Kyokushin. I was referring to a story of what happened after he left Oyama's becaues lawyers were definitely not involved.

I thought you would get the reference because along with franchising there was also a discussion on this thread of legal actions that could be taken by Kuk Sool Won for those who did follow their rules. And I specifically wrote about what happened after Nakumura left Oyama.

I hope this clears everything up.

 

[Omar B]

Thank you very much for that suggestion. I am not sure it will help since as you pointed out it has taken me two pages to get to this point. Can you imagine me in a law library?

Well I wouldn't know if Nakamura cared or not. I haven't heard from him since I never asked him. Then again we have never met. But I will take your word for it since you know him.

There was never any mention of Nakumura re-branding Kyokushin. I was referring to a story of what happened after he left Oyama's becaues lawyers were definitely not involved.

I thought you would get the reference because along with franchising there was also a discussion on this thread of legal actions that could be taken by Kuk Sool Won for those who did follow their rules. And I specifically wrote about what happened after Nakumura left Oyama.

I hope this clears everything up.

So I guess you still miss the point. They could not take legal action, because he was not teaching Kyokushin. Much like if a KSW practitioner left and formed his own independent school could not be sued for some similarities. see how that works? Kyokushin and Seido though similar are different beasts, so no lawsuit. Members leaving KSW and forming Kuk Sool Steve, Kuk Sool Joe can be sued because it's till the same thing.

Also, one does not need a law library to look up a law. Computers, they are awesome.

 

[Kittan Bachika]

Also, one does not need a law library to look up a law. Computers, they are awesome.

So I guess you still miss the point. They could not take legal action, because he was not teaching Kyokushin. Much like if a KSW practitioner left and formed his own independent school could not be sued for some similarities. see how that works? Kyokushin and Seido though similar are different beasts, so no lawsuit. Members leaving KSW and forming Kuk Sool Steve, Kuk Sool Joe can be sued because it's till the same thing.

I see you still do not get the reference. I know there was no legal action was taken after Nakamura left. But if you believe the stories, some action was taken that did not involve lawyers. But then again perhaps you do not know story of what happened after Nakumura went on his own. Which is odd since you know the man.

Also, one does not need a law library to look up a law.

Yes. You can always talk to a lawyer.

Computers, they are awesome

Oh I agree. If it wasn't for computers we would not be having this absolutely fabulous conversation.

 

[Omar B]

Well for the record, I don't think this conversation is quite as fabulous as you might think.

I do get the reference, but we are talking about enforceable laws, not just people taking matter in hand ... anyone can do that, doesn't make them right or the other person wrong.

 

[shesulsa]

I was commenting on the question regarding franchising and HRD. Seems we can't seem to decide what the conversation is about.

Regards,

 

[Kittan Bachika]

Well for the record, I don't think this conversation is quite as fabulous as you might think.

Well I have enough to share with everyone.

I do get the reference, but we are talking about enforceable laws, not just people taking matter in hand ... anyone can do that, doesn't make them right or the other person wrong.

I am glad you got the reference. I brought it up because what occurred was in exact opposite to the legal actions that KSW would take if someone continued to represent them but did follow their rules and pay their fees.

Just to make sure we are on the same page, what do you think I am referring to?

 

[Omar B]

I know the series of events you are referring to quite well, that's why I contrasted it to the legal wranglings. After all, I only have 24 of my 29 years in the style.

 

[Kittan Bachika]

I know the series of events you are referring to quite well, that's why I contrasted it to the legal wranglings.

There was a series? I thought it was just one event.

After all, I only have 24 of my 29 years in the style.

So you are relatively new to the style. Ba dum dum cymbal crash.
(This is a joke. A corny one I admit.)