Is there a connection between Hapkido and Kuk Sool?

Kittan Bachika

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I was running around youtube when I came across this clip. I recognize the from awhile but it was in a Hapkido school. In the description it mentions hapkido. Is there a connection?
 

dancingalone

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I haven't run across many hapkido schools that practice hyung, although I know there's at least one major line that does. I'm aware of a few Kuk Sool Won splinters where the departing masters kept the Kuk Sool material and just called their system "hapkido". I wonder if this Youtube video is from one of those such schools.

On an interesting note, there's also Kuk Sool schools that predate Mr. Suh's Kuk Sool Won. Their curriculum are very similar to Mr. Suh's although Mr. Suh has changed a few of the forms like Ki Cho over the years.
 

dancingalone

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And by googling the publisher of the video, it's apparent he's involved in Kuk Sool Won judging by his website: http://www.martialartfitnessacademy.com. So this answers the question of where the form came from.

A number of Kuk Sool Won masters recently left the KSW organization due to a franchise agreement coming from headquarters. Wonder if this gentleman was one of them if he's listing hapkido as the art in his more recent YT videos.
 

Omar B

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I haven't run across many hapkido schools that practice hyung, although I know there's at least one major line that does. I'm aware of a few Kuk Sool Won splinters where the departing masters kept the Kuk Sool material and just called their system "hapkido". I wonder if this Youtube video is from one of those such schools.

On an interesting note, there's also Kuk Sool schools that predate Mr. Suh's Kuk Sool Won. Their curriculum are very similar to Mr. Suh's although Mr. Suh has changed a few of the forms like Ki Cho over the years.

Kuk Sool Do. http://www.kuksuldo.com/
 
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Kittan Bachika

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And by googling the publisher of the video, it's apparent he's involved in Kuk Sool Won judging by his website: http://www.martialartfitnessacademy.com. So this answers the question of where the form came from.

A number of Kuk Sool Won masters recently left the KSW organization due to a franchise agreement coming from headquarters. Wonder if this gentleman was one of them if he's listing hapkido as the art in his more recent YT videos.

Franchise agreement? What's that about?
 

dancingalone

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Franchise agreement? What's that about?

Just like how it sounds. Increased licensing fees and restrictive operating clauses from headquarters. Allegedly there was a provision that would have given KSW a financial interest in each school too. Given that GM Suh is transitioning the leadership of the martial art to his son, it's no surprise that several senior KSW masters have made the choice to detach themselves at this time.
 
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Kittan Bachika

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Just like how it sounds. Increased licensing fees and restrictive operating clauses from headquarters. Allegedly there was a provision that would have given KSW a financial interest in each school too. Given that GM Suh is transitioning the leadership of the martial art to his son, it's no surprise that several senior KSW masters have made the choice to detach themselves at this time.

Is this how the Kukkiwon and WTF work? I heard that the testing fees for black belts cost an arm and a leg.
 

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Is this how the Kukkiwon and WTF work? I heard that the testing fees for black belts cost an arm and a leg.

The Kukkiwon has no licensing fees, no membership fees. Unless you're paying for a special seminar or class or something, all they have is certification fees, and they're not actually that bad. First Dan is $70, but a lot of masters will charge about $500 and say it all goes to the Kukkiwon.
 

shesulsa

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Just like how it sounds. Increased licensing fees and restrictive operating clauses from headquarters. Allegedly there was a provision that would have given KSW a financial interest in each school too. Given that GM Suh is transitioning the leadership of the martial art to his son, it's no surprise that several senior KSW masters have made the choice to detach themselves at this time.

KSW is not the only art to instill such a practice - and it has damn near killed it and most other arts who do this. Some people have called it "indentured servitude."

I'm sure this kind of system was set up to ensure the higher ranking older men were cared for in retirement since there were no 401k's out there. Today, these retirement opportunities exist and while it's difficult to turn a profit in martial arts these days, this would only make it impossible and not-in-keeping with our American political and financial system.
 

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How is franchising un-American? It is a model we use extensively and export around the world a la McDonalds. Modern franchising is almost an American invention.
 

shesulsa

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How is franchising un-American? It is a model we use extensively and export around the world a la McDonalds. Modern franchising is almost an American invention.

The type of franchising we have here does not disallow a person to be successful financially in spreading the product or service.

How would you like to send 50% of your profits to the head of the system you teach? How much would you have to charge to accommodate that, the cost of running a professional training hall and pay yourself some kind of salary?
 

Kumbajah

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I don't know the details of the franchise agreement but "corporate" usually gets a cut in exchange for brand recognition and other corporate perks. ( larger buying power, training, etc)

Personally, I think the commercialization of MAs compromises them as a rule but I wouldn't single out franchising as a evil practice above the rest. Hopefully it would put in some level of quality control, so they are at least the same/similar where ever you go. You pretty much know what you are getting when you order a big mac anywhere in the world. No one would mistake it for filet mignon nor hopefully expect it, but you be able to expect a somewhat "baseline" quality.
 
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Kittan Bachika

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I am not a big fan of franchising. The schools I have seen who embrace that model usually become black belt factories because quality control gives way to making making profits. However I have see schools branch out where a member with a high rank and starts another school in another area as representative of that school. How this is different from franchising, I have no idea. But I have noticed the quality stays consistent.
 

Dennis

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I am in Hapkido, but I know nothing of the other style, do think I have even heard of it. Dennis
 

Kumbajah

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I am not a big fan of franchising. The schools I have seen who embrace that model usually become black belt factories because quality control gives way to making making profits. However I have see schools branch out where a member with a high rank and starts another school in another area as representative of that school. How this is different from franchising, I have no idea. But I have noticed the quality stays consistent.

They could both be franchising. That is the business model. Basically - here is a business, here are the licensing, materials and supplies needed to run it and here are the best practices on how to run it. It will cost you x amount to purchase the business. You are beholden to the corporate office that can revoke your franchise if you aren't meeting corporate standards.

I think what you are addressing is where the franchises come from - internal or external. If they come from internally the person can be groomed to the position and style they are going to teach.

No matter what the business model is they are there to make a profit. It is why people go into business. No one tries to lose money or does it purely for altruistic reasons. Why start a business then? You don't need a business to teach. Look the Rec programs / youth leagues for other sporting activities. Profit is the name of the game when you own a business.
 
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Kittan Bachika

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They could both be franchising. That is the business model. Basically - here is a business, here are the licensing, materials and supplies needed to run it and here are the best practices on how to run it. It will cost you x amount to purchase the business. You are beholden to the corporate office that can revoke your franchise if you aren't meeting corporate standards.

I think what you are addressing is where the franchises come from - internal or external. If they come from internally the person can be groomed to the position and style they are going to teach.

No matter what the business model is they are there to make a profit. It is why people go into business. No one tries to lose money or does it purely for altruistic reasons. Why start a business then? You don't need a business to teach. Look the Rec programs / youth leagues for other sporting activities. Profit is the name of the game when you own a business.

No disagreement there about the objective of a business or franchise. I guess what I am describing is an internal franchise.

What would you call it if a student leaves their school to start their own school? I have seen that happen where certain high level students start their own groups, usually with the blessing of their teacher, but no money is exchanged between the two parties. Is that still a franchise?
 

Kumbajah

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I think it a matter of who owns the brand. If you started at Joe Blow's Karate School and then opened Joe Blow's Karate School - East Patooka. Then that would be a franchise because you are beholden to Joe Blow and you are profiting from using his name. Joe still has the last say on what is Joe Blow karate.

If you told Joe to suck it and went off on your own then no.
 
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Kittan Bachika

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I think it a matter of who owns the brand. If you started at Joe Blow's Karate School and then opened Joe Blow's Karate School - East Patooka. Then that would be a franchise because you are beholden to Joe Blow and you are profiting from using his name. Joe still has the last say on what is Joe Blow karate.

If you told Joe to suck it and went off on your own then no.

What do you mean by brand? As in the name of school or style? If you started at Joe Blow Karate and decided to go of on your own and teach Karate, Joe Blow really has no say. The word Karate is public domain. Now if Joe Blow copyrighted and trademarked the name Joe Blow's Karate School and you open one up a school using the Joe Blow name, then that is a different story.
 

Omar B

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That's his point man, Kuk Sool was formulated and created by a singular individual. Kinda like Col Sanders used to do with his chicken recipes before he started KFC. Restaurants all over the south, then the whole country would gladly pay for his fryer, seasoning mix, etc for the privilege of selling Col Sander's Chicken and display the sign outside.

Personally, I don't see franchising as a bad thing. There are abuses of it, high franchising fees, drop in standard, and it goes on and on. But then for every franchise that abuses it's franchisee's (and I'm not saying that's the case) there are 10 examples such as Best Western, Holiday Inn, Starbucks, Dunkin Donuts, where one outlet gives you the same good/service you would get at any other.
 

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