Is something missing?

[Xue Sheng]

Believe it or not this is actually related to CMA, but I am not exactly how to put what I am thinking into words but here
goes.

I had a discussion with my wife about TCM training the other day we were discussing treatment methods in China as compared to
TCM treatment methods used here. She use to train foreign students in acupuncture at Beijing hospital for the WHO (not the
band the Heath org) and she said the hardest thing to train a westerner in TCM is the TCM way of diagnosis. In TCM in China
you figure out what caused the problem and treat the then treat the problem and the result. And the biggest issue is that in
the west we have all been brought up focusing on treating the result. I have a cold, make it go away ASAP, not what caused
the cold in the first place and treat that so you don’t get it again kind of thing.

In the west if you have a headache take a pill if you have a sore throat take a pill, you have a cold take a pill and so on.
Every headache can have the virtually same cure, take some tylenol. In TCM you look for what caused the headache and not only
treat the headache which is the result but what caused it as well, to much heat to much cold, etc. Because not all headaches
are caused by the same thing. This is a big part of TCM but it is very difficult to teach this to us here in the west since
we are so focused on treating the result. In China it is the cause and the result that tells you what acupuncture points to
use and or what herbal to use. And it can be different and from case to case even though the result “Headache” is the same.

This led me to a thought based in martial arts. Are we so focused on results in MA; becoming a master, getting a black belt,
getting the next rank, being dangerous, etc. that we are missing something in our training. And if that is the case is it
possible to figure it out without the years of cultural training you get in countries like China and Japan just by the fact
someone is born there.

I am not asking are they better martial artists that all depends on the martial artist but are we missing something more
important that we simply cannot get without the cultural background. But then again are they better martial artist based on a
definition of martial arts that is not focused mostly on being a better fighter?

I have 3 sifus, 2 are from China one is from America and all 3 are highly skilled and serious about their chosen style and I
feel I am lucky to train with all 3 but there is a distinct difference in the approach to teaching between the 2 from China
and the one from America. All 3 actually teach differently but I see similarities between the 2 from China more than my
American Sifu.

I may start sounding like a fortune cookie here and if I do let me apologize now… sorry about that. :asian:

But my American sifu is much more direct which in most cases is very good but he seems more focused on result, which is also
good but both my Chinese sifus seem more focused on the process to get there first and the result second. This approach has
led me to much frustration over the years with my Taiji sifu but after my talk with my wife I see that it was and is actually
a good thing. Of course it could also be that neither of my Chinese sifus are teaching to support themselves or their family
and my American Sifu is and I am making more out of this than I should, but I can’t help but wonder if it isn’t this focus on
the result that we have in the west that may be causing us to miss something very important in our training.

And if I knew what I thought that was I would tell you but right now it is just a feeling.

Opinions, thoughts…….

 

[morph4me]

I think the difference is that we westerners are impatient and result driven, "I want to see the results, and I want so see them now" Expediency first. We are a young and immature culture when compared to the Orient, the Middle East, Europe, damn near everybody else in the world.

Over the years my training has followed a similar path. I started wanting to be more efficient and effective in my self defense, hit harder, do as much damage as possible in the shortest amount of time. As I matured in my art, I began to realize that if I practiced the principals, the results would take care of themselves, that it isn't a matter of doing something to my opponent, but a matter of doing something for myself, and the resulting effect on my oponent was a consequence of what I was doing. When I realized that I was more relaxed, confident and made significant progress.

I hope that somewhere in that rambling mass I made some sense and that the response at least somewhat related to what the question was.

 

[clfsean]

I think the difference is that we westerners are impatient and result driven, "I want to see the results, and I want so see them now" Expediency first. We are a young and immature culture when compared to the Orient, the middle east, europe, damn near everybody else in the world.

Yeah that pretty much sums it up...

 

[Shuto]

I wouldn't agree that treating the result is the only western medical methodology. If you have high cholesteral and/or high blood pressure, western medicine prescribes changes in diet and exercize as it's first line of treatment. Similarly, western doctors will often try to find the cause of migraines and some alergic reactions. Your characterization may be true in some cases, but western medicine is evolving towards finding the root cause of some common health problems. Western patients, on the other hand, often are not disciplined enough to follow the doctors prescription for changing lifestyle choices.

edit. I found your thoughts on MA training thought provoking. I haven't trained with a non-American teacher myself but I wouldn't be surprised if there is a culturaly based difference. Hmm...

 

[East Winds]

Xue Sheng,

Good, interesting and thought provoking post!!! Now please don't take this the wrong way, but could part of ther problem be in having 3 sifu's? Can you really do justice to the teachings of three teachers of presumably three different arts? I was in a similar situation some years ago, studying Chen Taiji, Bagua, Liu Ho Pa Fa and Taijiquan. (Plus a smattering of weapons forms including Fan). I suddenly realised that I wasn't really focused on any one particular art. I was "reasonably good" at them all But I was in effect suffereing from "monkey brain". For the past 5 years I have worked with only one teacher focusing entirely on Traditonal Yang Family Taijiquan. My undertanding of the art has increased imeasurably. I knew and could recite Yang Chen Fu's 10 essences, but when I really looked closely I wasn't really applying them!!!! My teacher started me working on the essences (not postures and forms) and I discovered that everything else fell into place. I discovered that if I applied the essences to every posture, it didn't matter what the posture looked like externally, it would be correct and would work martially.

Keep us posted on how you progress.

Very best wishes

 

[Andrew Green]

I think you are right to some extent, but I don't know if I would call it neccessarily a difference of west vs east.

Partly, but not entirely.

Take weight loss. There are a lot of people looking for a quick fix. A magic pill or special diet that will turn them into a supermodel in a couple weeks.

There are also those that flat out tell you that if you want to loose weight, and keep it gone, you got to change your lifestyle. Eat right, excercise, get a good nights sleep, etc.

Of course the second group don't sell as many books and DVD's.

My art of choice, right now anyways, is MMA. And it has nothing to do with the end result, well, not directly. I simply enjoy the process. I enjoy the formulating strategy, looking for patterns and ways to exploit them, using patterns to set people up. I like the game, I find it physically challenging, and mentally challenging.

Back in the karate days I was still, not really in it for a rank or any end goal, but what I enjoyed most was the deciphering, trying to work out application to movement, figuring out new training methods to achieve a goal, why certain things where the way they where, etc. (I wasn't a very good "traditionalist", I kept wanting to change things based on other things )

But there are definately people in both that come in looking at the goal, trying to get to the end without going through the work needed. They are the majority, and they usually don't stick around for very long. The ones that stay are there because they like the training, not because they are after a goal.

I think the capitalistic nature of running a business has led many instructors to try and deal with this by making the goals more obtainable, and at shorter intervals. Meaning more belts, and less time in between. Keeping a goal of some sort always just around the corner. Perhaps thats why so many loose students right after they get there black belt?

I see this at my day job as well (I teach a college program) many of our students are here, not because they are genuinely wanting to learn the material, or because they enjoy the training. But because it is a means to an end. The program gets them the paper, the paper gets them the job, the job gets them money, etc. But along the way nothing is really done simply for the enjoyment of doing it, and bettering oneself for no other purpose then to better oneself.

We drive wherever we go, trying to get to the destination as fast as possible. People get angry when they are delayed. Why not walk once and a while? Enjoy the walk, or even enjoy the city when stuck in traffic?

Training is a great experience, not for the belts, or for becoming a great fighter. It just is a great experience on its own, with nothing else.

Which is perhaps why I think it's odd that styles need to fight over who is the best. That's not important, which is the best experience is a better question. And that will differ from person to person.

 

[Xue Sheng]

Xue Sheng,

Good, interesting and thought provoking post!!! Now please don't take this the wrong way, but could part of ther problem be in having 3 sifu's? Can you really do justice to the teachings of three teachers of presumably three different arts? I was in a similar situation some years ago, studying Chen Taiji, Bagua, Liu Ho Pa Fa and Taijiquan. (Plus a smattering of weapons forms including Fan). I suddenly realised that I wasn't really focused on any one particular art. I was "reasonably good" at them all But I was in effect suffereing from "monkey brain". For the past 5 years I have worked with only one teacher focusing entirely on Traditonal Yang Family Taijiquan. My undertanding of the art has increased imeasurably. I knew and could recite Yang Chen Fu's 10 essences, but when I really looked closely I wasn't really applying them!!!! My teacher started me working on the essences (not postures and forms) and I discovered that everything else fell into place. I discovered that if I applied the essences to every posture, it didn't matter what the posture looked like externally, it would be correct and would work martially.

Keep us posted on how you progress.

Very best wishes

No offense taken, you’re not the only one that thinks this, just look here

http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=46684&highlight=sifus

Also 3 sifus is a fairly recent development within the past year (and just between you and me for a brief time it was 4), for the 12 years prior to this it has been just one sifu. I have pretty much been training with my Taiji Sifu exclusively for the last 12 years.

EDIT
And as I have said there has been much frustration in that last 12 years with my Taiji Sifu that I do believe comes from the same type of thing my wife and I were discussing. Even though I did not realize it and did feel I was focusing on learning the forms or the process, if you will, I realize it is likely at those times I was most frustrated with my Sifu I was focusing on the results and missing the point completely.

 

[Xue Sheng]

I think you are right to some extent, but I don't know if I would call it neccessarily a difference of west vs east.

Partly, but not entirely.

Take weight loss. There are a lot of people looking for a quick fix. A magic pill or special diet that will turn them into a supermodel in a couple weeks.

There are also those that flat out tell you that if you want to loose weight, and keep it gone, you got to change your lifestyle. Eat right, excercise, get a good nights sleep, etc.

Of course the second group don't sell as many books and DVD's.

My art of choice, right now anyways, is MMA. And it has nothing to do with the end result, well, not directly. I simply enjoy the process. I enjoy the formulating strategy, looking for patterns and ways to exploit them, using patterns to set people up. I like the game, I find it physically challenging, and mentally challenging.

Back in the karate days I was still, not really in it for a rank or any end goal, but what I enjoyed most was the deciphering, trying to work out application to movement, figuring out new training methods to achieve a goal, why certain things where the way they where, etc. (I wasn't a very good "traditionalist", I kept wanting to change things based on other things )

But there are definately people in both that come in looking at the goal, trying to get to the end without going through the work needed. They are the majority, and they usually don't stick around for very long. The ones that stay are there because they like the training, not because they are after a goal.

I think the capitalistic nature of running a business has led many instructors to try and deal with this by making the goals more obtainable, and at shorter intervals. Meaning more belts, and less time in between. Keeping a goal of some sort always just around the corner. Perhaps thats why so many loose students right after they get there black belt?

I see this at my day job as well (I teach a college program) many of our students are here, not because they are genuinely wanting to learn the material, or because they enjoy the training. But because it is a means to an end. The program gets them the paper, the paper gets them the job, the job gets them money, etc. But along the way nothing is really done simply for the enjoyment of doing it, and bettering oneself for no other purpose then to better oneself.

We drive wherever we go, trying to get to the destination as fast as possible. People get angry when they are delayed. Why not walk once and a while? Enjoy the walk, or even enjoy the city when stuck in traffic?

Training is a great experience, not for the belts, or for becoming a great fighter. It just is a great experience on its own, with nothing else.

Which is perhaps why I think it's odd that styles need to fight over who is the best. That's not important, which is the best experience is a better question. And that will differ from person to person.

Very well said, thanks

Which is perhaps why I think it's odd that styles need to fight over who is the best. That's not important, which is the best experience is a better question. And that will differ from person to person.

And wanted to separate this out because I felt is deserved it.
I wish more in martial arts today felt this way :asian:

 

[Flying Crane]

I think you are right to some extent...

Excellent post. very well stated, and many of the same things I have been thinking for a long time.

 

[Shuto]

Which is perhaps why I think it's odd that styles need to fight over who is the best. That's not important, which is the best experience is a better question. And that will differ from person to person.

Yep. Wise words indeed.

 

[Flying Crane]

This led me to a thought based in martial arts. Are we so focused on results in MA; becoming a master, getting a black belt,
getting the next rank, being dangerous, etc. that we are missing something in our training.

For many people, I would say yes. For some, I would say no. Welcome to the minority!

I would also like to respond to the "3 sifus" thing, and I think East Winds has made some valid points. However, I believe that it is fairly common in the Chinese arts at least, to study several arts. My sifu did it. His sifu did it. His other sifu did it. His other other sifu did it too... Ya see where I'm going here?

I think studying several arts under several teachers can be a good thing. It gives you a broad background and a wide range of experience. But I think that eventually you must chose the one or two that are best for you and then focus on them. Your earlier experience allows you to do this.

Maybe the problem can be studying three arts with three teachers AT THE SAME TIME. Studying several arts consecutively, when you can really focus on one at a time, is probably better than splitting your time between three. But I am guilty of this as well. I just enjoy it, I know I am undercutting my training to some degree, but I just apparently like too many things. We share a curse, you and I. Do what seems right for you, but understand that whatever choice you make will mean something else is sacrificed in some way...

 

[dmax999]

XS, I see your point as one of the major differences between "Kung-Fu" training and Tai Chi.

Most Kung-Fu (Of course not all) is all about faster harder and get to the next belt. You develop quickly at first getting stronger and faster in the beginning. Looking for quick results this is the obvious way to go. But you get to leveling off points where it starts getting very difficult to improve.

Tai Chi you are as they say "Investing in loss" to start with. Poor results to begin for exceptional results in the long run by slowly building up with correct principles. This lack of results for beginners, which I would say about 80% of people doing TC in America are beginners, is the reason so few believe it is even possible to fight with TC anymore.

Both methods get you to the ultimate goal, defending yourself, but they take different roads to get there.

 

[Andrew Green]

Both methods get you to the ultimate goal, defending yourself, but they take different roads to get there.

Get rid of the ultimate goal, just train for the training

 

[Steel Tiger]

This led me to a thought based in martial arts. Are we so focused on results in MA; becoming a master, getting a black belt,
getting the next rank, being dangerous, etc. that we are missing something in our training. And if that is the case is it
possible to figure it out without the years of cultural training you get in countries like China and Japan just by the fact
someone is born there.

I am not asking are they better martial artists that all depends on the martial artist but are we missing something more
important that we simply cannot get without the cultural background. But then again are they better martial artist based on a
definition of martial arts that is not focused mostly on being a better fighter?

I have 3 sifus, 2 are from China one is from America and all 3 are highly skilled and serious about their chosen style and I
feel I am lucky to train with all 3 but there is a distinct difference in the approach to teaching between the 2 from China
and the one from America. All 3 actually teach differently but I see similarities between the 2 from China more than my
American Sifu.

I may start sounding like a fortune cookie here and if I do let me apologize now… sorry about that. :asian:

But my American sifu is much more direct which in most cases is very good but he seems more focused on result, which is also
good but both my Chinese sifus seem more focused on the process to get there first and the result second. This approach has
led me to much frustration over the years with my Taiji sifu but after my talk with my wife I see that it was and is actually
a good thing. Of course it could also be that neither of my Chinese sifus are teaching to support themselves or their family
and my American Sifu is and I am making more out of this than I should, but I can’t help but wonder if it isn’t this focus on
the result that we have in the west that may be causing us to miss something very important in our training.

And if I knew what I thought that was I would tell you but right now it is just a feeling.

Opinions, thoughts…….

I think what you have cottoned on to is the essential difference in the philosophical approaches to the world between east and west. In the east the approach is essentially holistic, looking at any problem in its entirety. The western approach, which developed from Greek thinking, tends to dissect things, to look at the parts of a given problem.

So in the martial arts a Chinese teacher, for instance, will present techniques in terms of how you should have the proper attitude, spirit, energy. The intricacies of the techniques are less important. A western teacher will dissect the technique and look at the way x leads to y and then to z the result.

If I do it this way it will work, as opposed to, if I do this then this will happen. I think that is what we are looking at here. Or something like that

 

[Xue Sheng]

XS, I see your point as one of the major differences between "Kung-Fu" training and Tai Chi.

Most Kung-Fu (Of course not all) is all about faster harder and get to the next belt. You develop quickly at first getting stronger and faster in the beginning. Looking for quick results this is the obvious way to go. But you get to leveling off points where it starts getting very difficult to improve.

Tai Chi you are as they say "Investing in loss" to start with. Poor results to begin for exceptional results in the long run by slowly building up with correct principles. This lack of results for beginners, which I would say about 80% of people doing TC in America are beginners, is the reason so few believe it is even possible to fight with TC anymore.

Both methods get you to the ultimate goal, defending yourself, but they take different roads to get there.

True and I do agree there are differences between Taiji and Kung fu training. But I should add that my sifus are as follows and teach as follows

Chinese - Yang Taiji
Chinese - Sanda/Sanshou (military/police version)
American - Hebei Xingyiquan

I did have an American Wing Chun sifu that I no longer train with and my first sifu, who I also no longer train with was Chinese and for all intensive purposes taught wushu, except for the Chen he taught and later abandon because there was no money in it.

I did briefly go back to Chen a few months ago and trained with an American Sifu but I do not include him in this since it was only a month and he was very very new to teaching Chen (first class as a teacher actually) and trying to figure out how to teach properly, I will say he was doing a good job of it however.

I see this difference I am talking about between my Sanda Sifu and my Xingyi Sifu. Both are very skilled and I do honestly feel very happy about my training with them both. But the more I think about this and it has been mentioned here by others, my Xingyi sifu is doing applications of every form every single class and I enjoy it and focusing on results. But my Sanda sifu is doing more at building me up to actually do applications. More of the just do it because it is necessary thing, sit-ups, push ups, pull ups, hit a tree, etc., applications and qinna training come later. This is a long process to get to where you need to be to be able to do the applications properly. Where my Xingyi sifu is requiring Santi Shi standing and making us do it at each and every class, which is also building the martial artist but he then does applications right away. As I said I enjoy it but it seems to me something is very different in the approaches and it may be that I have read way to much Chinese philosophy and hear the Chinese point of view every day but I feel that the focus on results now is missing something as apposed to the focus on process to get to the results later.

As for my Taiji sifu you are absolutely correct that is a very different type of training but I see the similarity between my Sanda sifu and my Taiji sifu in the focus on the process. My Taiji sifu will not even get into applications until you have finished the 103 or 108 depending on how you count (he just calls it the long form) and basic push hands (stationary 1 hand, 2 hand, 3 step and 4 corner) and that takes awhile.

 

[Xue Sheng]

For many people, I would say yes. For some, I would say no. Welcome to the minority!

I would also like to respond to the "3 sifus" thing, and I think East Winds has made some valid points. However, I believe that it is fairly common in the Chinese arts at least, to study several arts. My sifu did it. His sifu did it. His other sifu did it. His other other sifu did it too... Ya see where I'm going here?

I think studying several arts under several teachers can be a good thing. It gives you a broad background and a wide range of experience. But I think that eventually you must chose the one or two that are best for you and then focus on them. Your earlier experience allows you to do this.

Maybe the problem can be studying three arts with three teachers AT THE SAME TIME. Studying several arts consecutively, when you can really focus on one at a time, is probably better than splitting your time between three. But I am guilty of this as well. I just enjoy it, I know I am undercutting my training to some degree, but I just apparently like too many things. We share a curse, you and I. Do what seems right for you, but understand that whatever choice you make will mean something else is sacrificed in some way...

ahh yes the curse. :uhyeah:

Good point

And my Xingyi sifu has studied at least 5 styles and my Sanda sifu has studied other styles as well. My Taiji sifu has studied taiji and only taiji his whole life, and he is the oldest of us all.

And my Sanda sifu has said the same thing; I am studying too many styles. But it isn't so much the number of styles it is the fact that I am a beginner at 2, Xingyi and Sanda and he does not see how I can train both and do everything else (general life stuff) and do either style justice. As for Taiji he feels I have done that so long it is not that much of an issue. Hence the reason I spoke of in another post I need to make a choice soon. But this is stuff of another post.

 

[Xue Sheng]

I think the difference is that we westerners are impatient and result driven, "I want to see the results, and I want so see them now" Expediency first. We are a young and immature culture when compared to the Orient, the Middle East, Europe, damn near everybody else in the world.

good point.

I hope that somewhere in that rambling mass I made some sense and that the response at least somewhat related to what the question was.

Yes you did make sense.

 

[Andrew Green]

Suppose your out in the woods, and you find a trail. You decide to hike it.

SOme people will enjoy the trail, look around, enjoy the sites, smells, sounds and everything. They get to the end and find out it went in a circle, they think, that was nice, I should do it again.

Others will try the trail, keep there eyes on the trail, walk fast, get to the end and find out it went in a circle and think, what a waste of time, it didn't go anywhere.

Martial arts is a trail that doesn't really lead anywhere. Well, many trails that don't really lead anywhere. We can pick one and stick to it, or fork off at anytime.

Unfortunately many people get distracted by little collectables (belts) that some of the guides have left on the trails and told them they need to collect a whole set of. Or promised something fancy later along the trail for those that stick to it. Too many people forget to enjoy the trail and get too focused on rushing along it to pick up the collectables.

 

[Xue Sheng]

I think what you have cottoned on to is the essential difference in the philosophical approaches to the world between east and west. In the east the approach is essentially holistic, looking at any problem in its entirety. The western approach, which developed from Greek thinking, tends to dissect things, to look at the parts of a given problem.

So in the martial arts a Chinese teacher, for instance, will present techniques in terms of how you should have the proper attitude, spirit, energy. The intricacies of the techniques are less important. A western teacher will dissect the technique and look at the way x leads to y and then to z the result.

If I do it this way it will work, as opposed to, if I do this then this will happen. I think that is what we are looking at here. Or something like that

I think you are on to something here.

MY Taiji Sifu for instance will show you a way to move in push hands and let you work at it and find your center and later move onto this is where you apply force. Where as my Xingyi Sifu moves right into application after showing a form. I am also beginning to realize I too am guilty of this when I teach to assist my Taiji Sifu and when I use to teach Taiji years ago. This is the posture and this is what it does, this is 2 hand stationary push hands and this is an application type of thing.

I also was thinking this morning while doing Qigong that I am again looking to the result or the goal and not paying attention to the practice itself. I did not use to be that way back when I did more qigong but realize now that I am. So I stopped thinking of the result and just focused on what I was doing at that moment and it is a completely different thing. I think it is a western thing that if you are not careful you will do exactly that because that is what we are brought up to do. Where my Chinese sifus and my wife as well, seem to be less focused on the goal and more focused on what needs to be done now or worked on now and if you do that you will attain the goal. My first Sifu (also Chinese) said something that I remember that I feel is somewhat related. He said “Don’t worry about money just focus on now and what you like and money will come”.

I am not saying my Chinese teachers are better than my American because that is certainly not the case they are all highly skilled at what they do. But the approach is definitely different and at least as far as CMA is concerned I do feel that, at least for me, I am missing something by focusing on the end result more than the current practice.

And about 10 years ago I do not think I was focusing on the end result that much, that was when I was doing more Qigong. So when the heck did I start thinking more like a westerner?

 

[Xue Sheng]

Suppose your out in the woods, and you find a trail. You decide to hike it.

SOme people will enjoy the trail, look around, enjoy the sites, smells, sounds and everything. They get to the end and find out it went in a circle, they think, that was nice, I should do it again.

Others will try the trail, keep there eyes on the trail, walk fast, get to the end and find out it went in a circle and think, what a waste of time, it didn't go anywhere.

Martial arts is a trail that doesn't really lead anywhere. Well, many trails that don't really lead anywhere. We can pick one and stick to it, or fork off at anytime.

Unfortunately many people get distracted by little collectables (belts) that some of the guides have left on the trails and told them they need to collect a whole set of. Or promised something fancy later along the trail for those that stick to it. Too many people forget to enjoy the trail and get too focused on rushing along it to pick up the collectables.

Good analogy, thanks