is political correctness killing martial arts?

[pstarr]

There's certainly nothing wrong with maintain a high level of safety but I ensure that the students learn the art fully and correctly. As for being politically correct, I've never been any good at it-

 

[Don Roley]

Now my personal opinion is that the PC movement has ruined the general society, because god forbid you hurt someone's feelings and tell them the truth...

If you think that people should be able to tell the truth, then you should have no problem with me telling you that you wasted a lot of your time in a fake art.

I looked at your profile and some of your posts. You claim to have studied a form of ninjutsu that is not know in Japan as an existing school.

It would be PC of me to remain silent, but I think I owe you the truth even if you don't really like it since you opened up the door with your comment above. The truth shall set you free.

Don't be ashamed. A lot of people have been fooled by incompent frauds like Ron Duncan, Ron Collins, ############, Yo Sato, Frank Dux, etc. Your teacher may have been someone that got fooled and he was just trying to do his best. But all the guys I listed are guys that talk a good fight, but do things that make other people laugh.

The way to tell if your teacher is being honest and was fooled himself is to see if there is an independent way of comfirming his own experiences. So if you go to him and ask him about his teacher, and he hesitates or does not give you a way to contact/confirm he had a teacher- then he is a fraud. If I were to ask you about something you freely claimed that happened to you and you could not give me a way of confirming it on my own, then I would know that you were a fraud. That is the best way to determine if a teacher is trying to be honest or not- find out if the stuff they make references to without prompting can be confirmed on your own without having to take their word for it.

Of course, if they need to make frequent mention of what they know and how much experiences they have with real violence, then you pretty much know they are frauds. Some people do have experience and will bring it up when it really is needed. But the frauds try to work it into every conversation they can. Rather pathetic and proof that they are just sad little people that need to look tough to others because deep down they know they are cowards and don't know much.

And frauds and PC are one thing that is helping destroy the arts. When someone is a fraud, I will say they are a fraud. I won't go looking for a fraud, but when one comes bouncing across my cave- you can't blame me for pointing out the problems with their stories. But boy do they complain and try to get PC about how we should not judge others, etc.

And yeah, there is an element of truth to that idea. I have seen boards devoted supposably towards exposing frauds that are more like a bunch of guys desperatly trying to tear down anything that is not like what they do. One person put it best when he said that some people go out of their way to find something bad to try to convince themselves that they do something good. I know of a few people that are frauds themselves but found the best way to get accepted and liked was to become fraud busters themselves.

But if someone comes into a forum making claims, then we should be able to say that they are spouting lies. Bob Hubbard recently said that at martialtalk we have always had the ability to call someone on their claims. That is not the same as talking about someone who has never made claims here on martialtalk. But if someone makes claims, then we should be able to question them. But some PC boards don't allow that.

Not all. A few weeks ago one big fraud by the name of Ron Collins came into Budoseek trying to impress folks with his claims. Among some of the things he has claimed was being in Force Recon. The owners and moderators of Budoseek are composed mainly of ex- and current USMC folks. As you can imagine- he was humiliated and everyone laughed at the way he was exposed. Frauds like that are not too bright, and everyone I have listed have proven to be almost completely unskilled in the martial arts.

But there are some folks that try to shut down the truth with PC talk of not talking about 'politics' (there is nothing political about someone lying or pointing it out) or comments like some here have repeated about all arts being the same.

If we can't tell the bad from the good due to some fear of being seen as judgemental, then there really is not much advantage to being one of the good ones.

 

[Dark]

If we can't tell the bad from the good due to some fear of being seen as judgemental, then there really is not much advantage to being one of the good ones.

Never thought being one of the good guys ment you had to prove the :bad guys" where actually bad to poeple. As for the "frauds" as you put it and my art being one of them, I've used it and it works thats real enough for me. Professor Duncan is exteremely skilled at what he does, regaudless if you wonna argue lineage or not.

Funakoshi and even Kano were considered frauds to may in thier time, now they are legends. Even Bruce Lee was caled a fake when he first started out. I always believed those who where "authentic" tend to pass the old test of time, perhaps we will see with these people you are talking about.

Also seeing as their is only so many applications for any given techniques based on the aws of physics how do you get that basically its not all the same? I mean the packaging is gonna always be different, ninja suit, karate gi, sweating guy in spandex shorts, but the core priniples is always the same.

 

[Don Roley]

Never thought being one of the good guys ment you had to prove the :bad guys" where actually bad to poeple. As for the "frauds" as you put it and my art being one of them, I've used it and it works thats real enough for me. Professor Duncan is exteremely skilled at what he does, regaudless if you wonna argue lineage or not.

Funakoshi and even Kano were considered frauds to may in thier time, now they are legends. Even Bruce Lee was caled a fake when he first started out. I always believed those who where "authentic" tend to pass the old test of time, perhaps we will see with these people you are talking about.

Also seeing as their is only so many applications for any given techniques based on the aws of physics how do you get that basically its not all the same? I mean the packaging is gonna always be different, ninja suit, karate gi, sweating guy in spandex shorts, but the core priniples is always the same.

You see, now you are being politically correct.

No one said Kano, Funakoshi, etc lied about their personal training history. But all the ninja frauds I listed have. And Duncan is just funny without meaning to be. Take a look at what people with no connection to ninja 'politics' have to say about him.

http://www.e-budo.com/forum/showthread.php?t=31499

You talked about telling the truth, and when I tell you some you seem to get offended and a little snippy. You can see why the world is going PC.

And I somehow get the sinking feeling that if I ask for proof to your statements that you have used the art I will not get something I can check on my own. Remember what I said about that?

As for the idea that all arts are the same, whether it be in a keikogi or spandex shorts- I can kind of tell that you do not have much experiences in martial arts. (The fact that you think Duncan is good is also a good clue.) The fundemental differences in arts like Kali, Systema, jujutsu and others is increadible if you have the experiences to understand them. Trust me, if you get some experience you will change your tune. I sound like you when I talk about wine. To me there is just red, white and rose and I can't tell a Riesling from a Pinor. But to the folks that know wine there is a hell of a lot of differences between them, as well as different vinters, etc. For wine I really don't care enough to try to learn. But for martial arts, I kind have tried to make it a point to see what is going on between different arts.

 

[MJS]

Mod. Note.
Please, keep the conversation on topic..

-Mike Slosek
-MT Super Moderator-

 

[jks9199]

Never thought being one of the good guys ment you had to prove the :bad guys" where actually bad to poeple. As for the "frauds" as you put it and my art being one of them, I've used it and it works thats real enough for me. Professor Duncan is exteremely skilled at what he does, regaudless if you wonna argue lineage or not.

Funakoshi and even Kano were considered frauds to may in thier time, now they are legends. Even Bruce Lee was caled a fake when he first started out. I always believed those who where "authentic" tend to pass the old test of time, perhaps we will see with these people you are talking about.

Also seeing as their is only so many applications for any given techniques based on the aws of physics how do you get that basically its not all the same? I mean the packaging is gonna always be different, ninja suit, karate gi, sweating guy in spandex shorts, but the core priniples is always the same.

I'm curious; who accused Funakoshi of being a fraud?

There were certainly people upset with him giving into government demands to get a job at one point in his life, and suggesting that he was a traitor to his class. That's definitely a form of political correctness -- which he rebelled against, or caved on, depending on your point of view.

And there were people who considered him a traitor or felt he'd betrayed them by teaching karate so openly.

I'm sure there were Japanese who felt whatever he had to teach was inadequate and less than the traditional Japanese arts, as well.

But I'm not personally aware of any accusation that he was a fraud.

It's easy to lob accusations at people, especially under a guise of being politically correct. "You're too mean when you teach people." "That guy is a misogynist, and sexist!" "I didn't think they'd really HIT me!" These are all things I've heard said... Many of them were excuses justifying poor performance or poor attitudes in training.

 

[Dark]

Don, I'm not being "snippy" I could careless about the "ninja-wars" over who is what or did this. I learned ninjitsu/ninjutsu posiby from one of those "fake-schools" but I have used what I learned in the military (Army Infantry) and my life (bouncing, playing rent-a-piggy and just fighting in general), it works thats what makes me happy.

All the this is a fraud and this person can't prove their lineage stuff just seems like mud-slinging politics and girlish-cat fighting. As far as my martial arts experience, you're right I don't know as much as I should or very could given the right amount of training, but the laws of physicals are the same either way it doesn't matter what the prinicples are packaged under they are the same principles, when you find a way to alter the laws of physics let me know...

jsk,

I'd have to look it up to get the names, but several Okinawan karate-masters had called Funakoshi a fake and even said he never completed his karate training. The arguement wasn't so much that he didn't have training but that he didn't have enough training to pass himself off as a master of the art an was unfit to teach. My personal opinon is different but well as I pointed out with the ninjitsu stuff above, there is the test of time...

Otherwise I completely agree with you on the PC thing...

 

[Don Roley]

All the this is a fraud and this person can't prove their lineage stuff just seems like mud-slinging politics and girlish-cat fighting.

That is the politically correct way of stateing things. In the non- PC world, a man backs up what he says with proof. For example, since you have gone out of your way to make mention of your military and personal experience, you would have to now back up what you say with proof. I am sure you could not if I asked, so let us drop that subject and just say that your provable experience is nil.

The problem I have is with people saying that all arts are the same, frauds or legitimate. "We should not judge since folks like Funakoshi were also called frauds." What rubbish! If someone lies about being trained in someone, or having experienced something like elite military units, Kumite competitions, CIA, etc, then they should be shown to be lying. If they make a point of mentioning something, then back down from backing it up, then they are lying.

And I dislike the PC type movement to stop discussion about frauds whenever they pop around to start talking about themselves. Going out of your way to hunt down frauds like Frank Dux, Ron Collins, Yo Sato, etc is a bit overboard. But when they (or their students) pop around to start the ego fest, I don't like it when some boards say we can't hold them accountable for what they claim in the name of harmony.

 

[Dark]

That is the politically correct way of stateing things. In the non- PC world, a man backs up what he says with proof. For example, since you have gone out of your way to make mention of your military and personal experience, you would have to now back up what you say with proof. I am sure you could not if I asked, so let us drop that subject and just say that your provable experience is nil.

I never went out of my way to mention my military experense, I simply said I had it. From personal expereience I've found a large degree of martial artists do or more accurately a large degree of soldiers gain martial arts training while in the service of their country.

BTW, while your asking for proof have you considered that instead of being arguementative and such, that you have in no way offered to explain or coherently disagree on any grounds other then "I haven't posted proof on a message board" as grounds to be against anything that I've said? Is rational thought or at least adult discussion even possible?

Never mind, your right "I have no proof" and you win...

 

[Don Roley]

Dark,
The mods told us to stay on topic. You worked a way to mention your claims of being in the military, etc but won't back it up. But you are certainly eager to argue that you have some experience. I no longer believe you and think you should let the matter drop like the mods told us to.

 

[Don Roley]

While we are on the subject- for now, there is one more PC thing that bugs me.

There seems to be two different ideas that will not mesh with each other. Both are PC in their own ways.

On one side is the idea that "as long as I can beat someone up, who cares about anything else?"

On the other is the idea that martial arts that deal with violence are uncivalized things only for brutes.

Neither side really will accept the other. And both sides are idiots as far as I am concerned.

Hey, I want to be able to defend myself with my art. But I want more than just that. Some people show up to class to learn how to defend themselves, and stay for what they find in martial arts. Among these things are ideals such as honesty, integrity and becoming a better person.

Hey, there are some folks that do that sort of thing as their exclusive purpose of training. I will respect their right to train as they want. But it does not thrill me when they try to look down their noses at the way I practice drawing and opening a knife.

And the guys that don't care if a teacher is a liar or anything other than whether they can beat up other folks- they need help.

 

[profesormental]

Greetings!

"Political correctness" seems to me to be the attempt to put things in a way that is at least innofensive for everyone (or most people)...

Which in itself is like trying to fit everyone in the same box.

Doing that in Martial Training means that most of the "Martial" would have to be waterd down.

When a prominent Master was asked "How long does it take for the average person to earn a Black Belt?"; the Master answered "An average person cannot earn a Black Belt."

Being PC makes a training available to many more people... like "cardio kickboxing"... yet you put them in a sparring match with kickboxers that have trained the same amount of time and they will destroy the cardio kickboxers...

People look for different things in their trainings.

If it is made clear that what they are doing created fitness, but not Martial ability, then I have no problem for them to keep on training...

yet if they think that what they are training in is Martial, and they are told they are getting Martial skills, and they are getting a Cardio kickboxing like training, then I have a problem with that,

since that action can put lives in danger, and people are not getting what they pay for, leading to bad impressions of dedicated intelligent martial skills trainers.

Also, to effectively train people, several non PC ways of presenting the information are necessary... I've really seen the difference between corteously demonstrating or saying to my student to do something...

and boping them so they feel it while they try full force to stop me, and commanding them enfatically to do as I say immediately.

It makes a big difference.

Some people if treated like that, go away. Which mostly means they really didn't want the training. Their loss, yet they won't waste my time and I will now invest more time on people that really want what I have to offer.

Learning occurs when you are pushed or pulled out of you comfort zone, so you have to think or take the first thing that is told to you that makes sense as truth...

Efficient teaching hardly occurs by leaving the student in their comfort zone (this also has to do with Mental State Dependent Learning).

PC language and actions are by default designed to leave people in their comfort zones.

Which really is not conductive for the mental state in which fighting occurs.

So, for most people should be qualified for the trainings that they recieve... if not they will leave, since they are not getting what they want...

real skills, or the fantasy of real skills given by PC training.

Sincerely,

Juan M. Mercado

 

[Dark]

Political correctness has one point; it is seposed to be a buffer, a way of saying things "nicely" being "nice" does not save you from being an idiot. Take the major area where political correctness in come the subject of racism, so may people are worried about stepping on someone's toes because of race/religion/nationality etc. The reality is nothing will change or patch the truth that humans are all idiots in some form or the orther and skipping around an issue or changing the semantics involved doesn't change the over all meaning behind them.

 

[Rook]

While we are on the subject- for now, there is one more PC thing that bugs me.

There seems to be two different ideas that will not mesh with each other. Both are PC in their own ways.

On one side is the idea that "as long as I can beat someone up, who cares about anything else?"

On the other is the idea that martial arts that deal with violence are uncivalized things only for brutes.

Neither side really will accept the other. And both sides are idiots as far as I am concerned.

You know, I see alot more of people attacking those who CLAIM loudly to be able to do both but don't really support it.

Most of the MMA types are content to leave arts that call themselves cultural rather than go around with statements that then fail to back up. The targets for the heaviest mockery generally bring it on themselves and are ussually not attacked just by the "fighting only" arts but by those who simply see the fatal flaws in their assertions or logic.

Likewise with styles that seen they say they are part of some ancient historical lineage and then utterly fail to provide any evidence to support their claims. Even the "ancient samurai art" and "koryu nuts/snobs" largely leave modernists alone when they don't claim to be anything that they aren't.

Hey, I want to be able to defend myself with my art. But I want more than just that. Some people show up to class to learn how to defend themselves, and stay for what they find in martial arts. Among these things are ideals such as honesty, integrity and becoming a better person.

I worry every time I read things like this. Every time people start talking about personal development, all arts start sounding equal and the real political correctness begins in earnest. I think we would be better off if, instead of using descriptions like becoming a better person, if we simply stuck to gaining knowledge or skill or solid training and left developing better people to the people themselves and the clergy.

Hey, there are some folks that do that sort of thing as their exclusive purpose of training. I will respect their right to train as they want. But it does not thrill me when they try to look down their noses at the way I practice drawing and opening a knife.

Some arts draw people with ethical principles that might be opposed to that. I resent that sort of elitism on the internet too, although I do not carry a weapon.

And the guys that don't care if a teacher is a liar or anything other than whether they can beat up other folks- they need help.

Hmm. Being truthful and being an effective fighter are not one in the same by a long shot. There are a great many honest and decent people who cannot fight their way out of a wet paper bag, and there are some very dishonest people who most would not wish to confront - heck just look at Counte Dante.

 

[Dark]

Well I agree with allot of what Rook has said, the only comment I really want to make it on the martial arts to become a better person stuff. I agree martial arts don't make you a better person, but the hard work does. You don't need MAs for hard work you can get that from Job Corps, Schooling or any physical sport.

 

[Flatlander]

In my class, my sifu teaches purely incapacitating strikes, to throat, groin, face/nose/jaw etc. No locks to "disable", or immobilise an attacker. So in that sense, no, it isn't watered down. However, there are occasions when perhaps that kind of attitude is unrequired, and a different set of responses are required.

Yes. And in that regard, I'd have to suggest that teaching only incapacitating strikes and eliminating completely "locks to 'disable' or immobilize an attacker" is missing out on a significant portion of the use of force continuum, thereby exposing students to the risk of employing unreasonable force. One's training ought keep up with the law, and all that. As such, I'd suggest that some manner of cross training would be a good idea.

 

[Don Roley]

You know, I see alot more of people attacking those who CLAIM loudly to be able to do both but don't really support it.

Most of the MMA types are content to leave arts that call themselves cultural rather than go around with statements that then fail to back up. The targets for the heaviest mockery generally bring it on themselves and are ussually not attacked just by the "fighting only" arts but by those who simply see the fatal flaws in their assertions or logic.

That has not been my observation. I am working from a definition of political correctness as an inability to accept any other sort of thinking or respect those that do something other than what you do. And there are several types that will attack you if you do something other than what they do. My style does not do solo forms. But I have seen arts that do solo forms and call themselves self defense arts attacked and their training methods made fun of by those that claim to know The Truthtm about self defense.

If you do not do what certain folks do such as learning how to make a person submit or spar, then you are attacked and mocked. There is no acceptance that an art could have the same goal, and yet do things not in the way others do them. If you practice with a sword part of the time, do solo forms, don't do certain things or anything like that, then you are attacked if you dare say you practice to keep yourself safe

I worry every time I read things like this. Every time people start talking about personal development, all arts start sounding equal and the real political correctness begins in earnest. I think we would be better off if, instead of using descriptions like becoming a better person, if we simply stuck to gaining knowledge or skill or solid training and left developing better people to the people themselves and the clergy.

You are of course entitled to your opinion. But I have had to deal with a lot of folks from fraudulant arts that clearly knew that their teacher was lying, but did not care since they were getting some sort of status out of it. There are threads over at e-budo about James Lamont, convicted of raping underaged students of him that should be read. The defenders of these types all seem to say that the evil that their teacher does in no way relates to what they do and continue to support and run defense for people that should be put up against a wall and shot. I think that martial arts should be devoted to being able to go home sage as well as making you a person that can be trusted with those skills. I disagree with your view and will state that. But I won't try to shut you up. That would be a PC type of thing in my opinion.

 

[Brandon Fisher]

I have no patience or sympathy for someone who trashes another person because of the martial art they practice. I don't have patience for anyone that hurts a student intentionally in anyway thats abuse not training. Anyone who molests or rapes a student needs to find out how powerful true martial arts techniques really are.

 

[Kensai]

Yes. And in that regard, I'd have to suggest that teaching only incapacitating strikes and eliminating completely "locks to 'disable' or immobilize an attacker" is missing out on a significant portion of the use of force continuum, thereby exposing students to the risk of employing unreasonable force. One's training ought keep up with the law, and all that. As such, I'd suggest that some manner of cross training would be a good idea.

It was actually a point to emphasise that there had been no "watering down" of the art to suit the current times/cultural beliefs. Perhaps what I should have added is that he also mentions that it is our discretion as to whether or not we use such a technique in any given scenario. After all, if we're attacked in the street (tm) he's not likely to be there to make that call for us, however, if my "call" is such that I believe my life to be in mortal danger, I'd rather do an art that teaches/utilises instant takedowns, as opposed to scoring points, or looking pretty. Keeping up with the law is great, but to remain purely within the confines of it in a situation that's way outside of it, is, in my "opinion" folly.

As it happens, I do cross train, I've recently started training in Aikido. I like the SD aspects of it, and the body mechanics and knife techniques.

As for PC, I prefer cultural diplomacy, and an old fashioned couple of words, simply called "common sense". I think political correctness has served its purpose and is now more of a hindrance.

 

[Devin]

Making the arts "safer" isn't a bad thing if done in moderation. Safer means less injuries in the training hall, which means less sidelined partners, which means better training.

However, martial arts have included lethal techniques since they were first created. For hundreds of years they have been practiced in relative safty (there will always be some risk), so I see no reason to not teach something just because its dangerous. Of course you won't try and crush your partener's windpipe during practice, but that doesn't mean that you shouldn't be taught how to do it.

Of course, we don't live in feudal Asia, and we don't have to worry about the things that they did. So to not change certain aspects of the art to make them more viable in today's world would be just as bad as watering down the art. Joint locks and immobilizations are needed in today's society with its laws governing reasonable force. To teach only stuff that maims or kills would not be a good thing. A martial artist must be able to defend themselves with all levels of force.

Today self-defense arts must be practiced as safely as reasonably possible, while incorperating techniques ranging from "evade the attacks" all the way to lethal force.

Sorry for the rambling post.