is political correctness killing martial arts?

[Kensai]

Making the arts "safer" isn't a bad thing if done in moderation. Safer means less injuries in the training hall, which means less sidelined partners, which means better training.

However, martial arts have included lethal techniques since they were first created. For hundreds of years they have been practiced in relative safty (there will always be some risk), so I see no reason to not teach something just because its dangerous. Of course you won't try and crush your partener's windpipe during practice, but that doesn't mean that you shouldn't be taught how to do it.

Of course, we don't live in feudal Asia, and we don't have to worry about the things that they did. So to not change certain aspects of the art to make them more viable in today's world would be just as bad as watering down the art. Joint locks and immobilizations are needed in today's society with its laws governing reasonable force. To teach only stuff that maims or kills would not be a good thing. A martial artist must be able to defend themselves with all levels of force.

Today self-defense arts must be practiced as safely as reasonably possible, while incorperating techniques ranging from "evade the attacks" all the way to lethal force.

Sorry for the rambling post.

Quite, it's possibly worse now in some areas of the world. I've never said DON'T learn imobilising techniques. I'm also not saying that instant take-down shots are the ONLY thing we're taught, merely that they are. The onus is on YOU to decide as and when to use them, based on the circumstances at the time. Imobilising techniques are all well and good (if you can get them to work) I think they have their place, but I wouldn't rely solely on those kind of techniques if I was on my own.

If someone attacks me, I'm not gonna use an arm-lock, wrist-lock etc and wait around while the police to get there, "if" they get there. Most people get into trouble as a result of altercations that they have as a result of what they say to the police afterwards. Somebody attacks you? Flatten them, then leave. Quickly. We're all likely to disagree on this, some will say use a "measured" response, some will say "use ANY response necessary to get the job done". I fall somewhere in the middle.

 

[Rook]

That has not been my observation. I am working from a definition of political correctness as an inability to accept any other sort of thinking or respect those that do something other than what you do. And there are several types that will attack you if you do something other than what they do. My style does not do solo forms. But I have seen arts that do solo forms and call themselves self defense arts attacked and their training methods made fun of by those that claim to know The Truthtm about self defense.

I see that too. However, one of the things that I notice more and more of the times are people saying things along the lines of "our kata allow us to practice far more effective techniques than people who practice MERE SPORT" and thus pique the interest of sports fighters who ask to have their "more effective non-sport" techniques demonstrated on them or their compatriots in a live fight/sparring session.

I rarely see, although there are exceptions, people like Dr. Yang who make statements like "if you want quick self defense learn kickboxing" mauled on the internet by MMA people or their sypathizers/fans.

If you do not do what certain folks do such as learning how to make a person submit or spar, then you are attacked and mocked. There is no acceptance that an art could have the same goal, and yet do things not in the way others do them.

The worry and concern is that different methods don't necessarily have equal validity. Just as there are a great many people claiming to inherit systems from Japan and China who did nothing of the sort, there are a great many people saying they are teaching self-defense who are doing nothing of the sort. Even then, they are largely left be until they start making statements like the ones I paraphrased above.

If you practice with a sword part of the time, do solo forms, don't do certain things or anything like that, then you are attacked if you dare say you practice to keep yourself safe.

It has been the experiance of alot of these people that certain training methods correlate pretty well with poor performance in recorded fights. There are obviously many disputes about training methods and system goals. Again though, I see alot more jumping on people who say kata is as good/better than say, sparring than people who simply include it as one part of a system and don't make claims about it that they don't seem to support.

You are of course entitled to your opinion. But I have had to deal with a lot of folks from fraudulant arts that clearly knew that their teacher was lying, but did not care since they were getting some sort of status out of it. There are threads over at e-budo about James Lamont, convicted of raping underaged students of him that should be read. The defenders of these types all seem to say that the evil that their teacher does in no way relates to what they do and continue to support and run defense for people that should be put up against a wall and shot. I think that martial arts should be devoted to being able to go home sage as well as making you a person that can be trusted with those skills. I disagree with your view and will state that. But I won't try to shut you up. That would be a PC type of thing in my opinion.

I wouldn't want to learn from such a teacher and behavior of this sort would make me question much of what they did. However, there were a great many unpleasant people who founded or perpetuated systems that endure to this day, and I don't necessarily think that their personal behavior makes the system itself ineffective.

For instance, if they ever prove Takeda killed some of the people he said he did but was never prosecuted for, I very much doubt there will be some sort of mass exodus from Daito Ryu, nor will people's opinions of aikido change markedly.

 

[Rook]

I think that I should expand on the end of my last statement, as when I am reading the statement it came out differently than I wanted it to.

One of the things that I have noticed one martial arts boards is the tendancy to group good people with good martial arts and morally bad people with ineffective martial arts. I touched on this already.

The flip side to the morally bankrupt who can fight well is the respect accorded to the morally upstanding who clearly cannot fight for beans. Some posters on various sites have been pretty badly responded to after they questioned the efficacy of "self defense" techniques taught in free martial arts classes to the elderly and the students of inner city schools. We hear statements like "well at least he's giving back to the community" which entirely miss the point of being effective or not. There is a certian political correctness about the need not to criticise such people or their programs.

This sort of political correctness and need not to question good people can very quickly water down arts, as respected fighting systems become XMA routines done for the self esteem of the participants and simultaneously touted as excellent street self defense.

 

[Brother John]

Not sure that THAT is what "Political correctness" is.
I call it.....
wattering things down.

Political correctness ruins (kills) EVERYTHING it touches!!!


Your Brother
John

 

[Devin]

Quite, it's possibly worse now in some areas of the world. I've never said DON'T learn imobilising techniques. I'm also not saying that instant take-down shots are the ONLY thing we're taught, merely that they are. The onus is on YOU to decide as and when to use them, based on the circumstances at the time. Imobilising techniques are all well and good (if you can get them to work) I think they have their place, but I wouldn't rely solely on those kind of techniques if I was on my own.

If someone attacks me, I'm not gonna use an arm-lock, wrist-lock etc and wait around while the police to get there, "if" they get there. Most people get into trouble as a result of altercations that they have as a result of what they say to the police afterwards. Somebody attacks you? Flatten them, then leave. Quickly. We're all likely to disagree on this, some will say use a "measured" response, some will say "use ANY response necessary to get the job done". I fall somewhere in the middle.

I wasn't critizing anything you said in your previous posts. I agree that 95% of the time, pinning your attacker is a very bad move. It takes two hands to pin him, and two hands and feet to defend yourself from his buddy coming up behind you .

When I was typing about changing the arts to reflect today's reality I was thinking about Daito-ryu Aiki Jujutsu, and how aikido has adapted the techniques so its easier for you to defend yourself without necessarily maiming the attacker.

After all, better to bounce someone's head off the ground and run away than to break someone's neck, bounce their head off the ground, and run away.

 

[Rook]

Not sure that THAT is what "Political correctness" is.
I call it.....
wattering things down.

Political correctness ruins (kills) EVERYTHING it touches!!!


Your Brother
John

I think what the people do is water things down. The political correctness comes in when people feel it is inappropriate to question certain parts of the watering down process.

We publically criticize many types of commercial schools, but restrain criticism of the some teachers and methods. This, I feel, is a form of the same sort of politically correct thought that keeps us from publically questioning other, more public issues in non-martial arts settings.

 

[Kensai]

I wasn't critizing anything you said in your previous posts. I agree that 95% of the time, pinning your attacker is a very bad move. It takes two hands to pin him, and two hands and feet to defend yourself from his buddy coming up behind you .

When I was typing about changing the arts to reflect today's reality I was thinking about Daito-ryu Aiki Jujutsu, and how aikido has adapted the techniques so its easier for you to defend yourself without necessarily maiming the attacker.

After all, better to bounce someone's head off the ground and run away than to break someone's neck, bounce their head off the ground, and run away.

:asian:
Forgive me, I wasn't criticising you either, perhaps we're both being too PC. Just think that locks, although they have their place, shouldn't be the sole arsenal in an individuals repetoire.

 

[Kenpojujitsu3]

Just think that locks, although they have their place, shouldn't be the sole arsenal in an individuals repetoire.

Agreed.

 

[Don Roley]

The worry and concern is that different methods don't necessarily have equal validity. Just as there are a great many people claiming to inherit systems from Japan and China who did nothing of the sort, there are a great many people saying they are teaching self-defense who are doing nothing of the sort. Even then, they are largely left be until they start making statements like the ones I paraphrased above.

That is part of the problem. The idea that somehow someone is an expert in what goes on in a real fight and anyone who does anything even a little different is wrong is the same mindset as the PC folks.

Determining if someone lied or not about training they got is fairly simple. If they can't prove even that they had a teacher, they are not worth considering as anything other than a fraud. But unless someone has a whole lot of encounters against knives, multiple attackers and what have you, then how on earth can they say that doing kata won't help you with self defense or learning to use a sword is useless?

Political Correctness is not about reserving judgement. It is the idea that one sort of thinking is 'correct' and thus it can't be judged, but other ways of thinking and doing things don't even have to be listened to. A few weeks ago I saw the South Park episode with the Tolerance Museum where as soon as they get out the adults start giving a smoker hell.

So it is the idea that one side can come in to another forum, dojo or what have you and start telling people The Truthtm instead of respecting them, but people who come into those same forums and make claims of being Koga ninja are off limits.

Honestly, I am aware of boards that organize invasions of other boards. Just because the practicioners on these boards do things differently. One post that stands out in my mind is one by someone saying they were going to sign up pretending to be an aikidoka and post for a while about how they love the art, only to post how they were shown that the art is useless later on.

That is the same lack of respect for others, but demanding of respect for themselves, the I see in the PC movement.

Of course, unless I am really wrong about your charecter that is not your way of doing things, nor the way people you would associate with do things. But they are out there.