Is it possible to be good at wing chun...

[guy b.]

If you ever get out to Arizona, look me up. JP, Jake and Joy (Vajramusdi) also live in this area. And you could go see the Grand Canyon and hug a cactus.

Otherwise, I'd still like to talk you into making a video. If like me you are not good at that stuff, maybe one of your mates is tech savvy and can help.

I would rather meet with you to discuss than post a video clip. Much less likely for misunderstandings to happen. I will contact you when I am in Arizona. Is this the best place to do so?

 

[geezer]

I would rather meet with you to discuss than post a video clip. Much less likely for misunderstandings to happen. I will contact you when I am in Arizona. Is this the best place to do so?

Sure, this works, or go to www.vingtsunaz.com and contact me directly.

 

[LFJ]

No, it is because it doesn't work like wing chun. It is a different thing.

It doesn't work like your Wing Chun. Do you not realize there are countless different variations? Your complaint is that it doesn't work like your Wing Chun, but it shouldn't. It works like their CSL Wing Chun.

Have you sparred wing chun hands against a decent western pro boxer or a high level amateur? Taking the Kurth vids as an example of something you find admirable, do you think that approach will work in a boxing match against a competent opponent?

Yes, why not?

Protection (gloves or headgear) increases contact time, which reduces impulse.

What the hell does that mean? If I punch someone's head, it tends to bounce away. My hand is not going to stick to their head because I have a glove on it.

You can see exactly the same thing in (for example) Alan Orr's wing chun vs some other approaches. Gloves and protection absolutely do change body mechanic. You can see it happening in some of Sean's and Kurth's clips on the other site if you look carefully.

That's absolutely absurd. You may be perceiving different body mechanics than what you do in your style of Wing Chun. The two styles you've just mentioned are very different, and they both function they way they are designed to, with or without gloves. If that differs from your Wing Chun, it has nothing to do with gloves screwing them up.

Hitting people in what context?

Whatever context you find yourself in where you may be hitting people.

Look, I am happy to show you what I mean because I am obviously not communicating it very well here. I travel around quite a bit and should be able to come to your class to demo if you would like. Are you in Europe?

I'm in Asia, but Arizona sounds nice since there are so many forum members there. But I'm not sure "showing what you mean" is going to be possible, unless you let them deliver full contact bareknuckle punches to your face and all you do is brace yourself and only sustain minor cuts at worst. Will you allow them to film that?

And, I don't care if you can't use your Wing Chun with gloves on. That's your problem. Not mine. Not something I have to worry about.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Gloves like this aren't good for most martial art fighting systems. If Guy is talking about these gloves then I can see how these gloves would be a problem.

 

[JPinAZ]

Gloves like this aren't good for most martial art fighting systems. If Guy is talking about these gloves then I can see how these gloves would be a problem.

Haha. There's a lot going on that's wrong in that clip - the gloves are only one of them!

But I agree, gloves that size do limit ability to apply WC much more than smaller gloves. Smaller, open palm 6-8 oz gloves leave a lot more available to a WC fighter during sparring. But these bigger ones can still be useful to a degree, As long as one is aware of their limits due to size and inability to really use the palm, fingers, wrist as freely as smaller or even no gloves

 

[guy b.]

It doesn't work like your Wing Chun. Do you not realize there are countless different variations? Your complaint is that it doesn't work like your Wing Chun, but it shouldn't. It works like their CSL Wing Chun.

In terms of things like fighting strategy, movement and body mechanics, Alan Orr's wing chun does not work in the way wing chun does.

Yes, why not?

Ok, so you haven't done this then. That's fine, but why get angry when someone who has talks about it? Wing chun is not good as a ring sport for several reasons. The most obvious of these is its predictability. Just like boxing alone is incredibly predictable in an mma match. Wing chun is not a good martial art for the ring.

What the hell does that mean? If I punch someone's head, it tends to bounce away. My hand is not going to stick to their head because I have a glove on it

It means that padding increases contact time and decreases the impulse imparted to the target in the collision (look up impulse). Think about what happens when you hit a snooker ball against another snooker ball. Compare with what happens if you use soft padded balls with the same weight and momentum.

That's absolutely absurd. You may be perceiving different body mechanics than what you do in your style of Wing Chun. The two styles you've just mentioned are very different, and they both function they way they are designed to, with or without gloves. If that differs from your Wing Chun, it has nothing to do with gloves screwing them up.

Hitting someone with a wet towel entails different body mechanics than hitting them with a small hammer of equal weight. Hitting someone with a blunt axe entails different body mechanics than hitting them with a sharp sword. Wing chun is a martial art that uses shortened power chain linkages in the body for various reasons. Padding forces the use of longer power chains. You can see it in Kurths clips as he goes from no gloves to gloves. His guys appear in the middle of making a switch one way or the other. Alan Orr's people all use long power linkages, in much the same way that western boxers do.

Why does wing chun have the pole form and why does it stress that pole is introduced early?

Whatever context you find yourself in where you may be hitting people.

You should ask someone about this.

I'm in Asia, but Arizona sounds nice since there are so many forum members there. But I'm not sure "showing what you mean" is going to be possible, unless you let them deliver full contact bareknuckle punches to your face and all you do is brace yourself and only sustain minor cuts at worst. Will you allow them to film that?

I am often in HK. I could come and help to show you how bare knuckle training is essential for wing chun, and how gloved training is detrimental. You seem angry and it is difficult to convince an angry person with reasoned argument. Maybe seeing it will be more useful to you?

And, I don't care if you can't use your Wing Chun with gloves on. That's your problem. Not mine. Not something I have to worry about.

This is not what I said

 

[Jake104]

In terms of things like fighting strategy, movement and body mechanics, Alan Orr's wing chun does not work in the way wing chun does.

I swear Alan should send me a free set of DVDs for defending his WC a much as I do? . I'd probably have to agree with the complete opposite of everything you just said in the above quote.

 

[Jake104]

I'm in Asia, but Arizona sounds nice since there are so many forum members there. But I'm not sure "showing what you mean" is going to be possible, unless you let them deliver full contact bareknuckle punches to your face and all you do is brace yourself and only sustain minor cuts at worst. Will you allow them to film that?

And, I don't care if you can't use your Wing Chun with gloves on. That's your problem. Not mine. Not something I have to worry about.

Haha, like Geezer said, out here in AZ we hug cacti or cactuses ( plural depending on if you're Latin or German) Cacti is not plural for Cactus.

We also use them as Mook Jong's.

 

[Jake104]

Gloves like this aren't good for most martial art fighting systems. If Guy is talking about these gloves then I can see how these gloves would be a problem.

Wow..Obasi's stuff is unique to Obasi. I'll just leave it at that.

 

[Jake104]

You put that @#$% song in my head....I now return the favor

You have to admit it's a good song. I'll admit I have it on my iphone. I just turn it down real low if I'am at a stop light and the windows are down.

 

[Argus]

This discussion seems needlessly heated from my point of view.

Since I haven't actually heard it brought up yet, and I'm quite curious myself, I'll just ask this question:

guy b., how do you train WC and spar in a bare knuckle context? Are you able to do this safely, without frequent / serious injury? Or, are you rather looking for advice on how to do this?

I think that most of us can agree that gloves hinder some of what we do in WC to some extent or another, so it's not as if he doesn't have valid concerns. The question is whether or not he can apply his training methodology with an acceptable level of safety -- given, that level might vary between individuals.

I do think that variety in training methodologies and equipment used is essential, and I can see where sparring with gloves all of the time and catering your WC to that specific context will introduce unwanted tendencies. To once again draw a HEMA comparison (sorry guys!), just look at many Longsword tournaments. Because many of them are sparring all of the time with blunt swords and heavy protective gear, many of them have the tendency to fight as if they were using clubs rather than sharp swords, feeling that they must leave an "impression" on the protected man underneath to "score" a "hit," even though they're practicing Blossfechten (unarmored combat, for which there is a completely separate method from armored combat). So, rather than skillful bladework, we sometimes get some abstract clubbing match vaguely resembling historical methods. Armor and safety equipment, and even a "competitive sparring" mindset/context absolutely does change what we do if we let it and don't sufficiently direct and diversify our training.

The key, I think, is to balance your training methods, and stay honest with yourself and your training partners about what you're practicing. And, again, I don't think one needs to include "full force, full contact, full speed" sparring to be effective. You can simulate aggressive intent and pressure test your skills in a wide variety of contexts, with and without protective equipment, and come away with applicable and useful combative skills.

 

[geezer]

....You seem angry and it is difficult to convince an angry person with reasoned argument. Maybe seeing it will be more useful to you?

Guy, this comment is spot on. I, on the other hand, disagree with some things you say ...but am not angry. So, I enjoy the exchange. And I admit you make some interesting points. Like the following:

Wing chun is a martial art that uses shortened power chain linkages in the body for various reasons. Padding forces the use of longer power chains. You can see it in Kurths clips as he goes from no gloves to gloves. His guys appear in the middle of making a switch one way or the other. Alan Orr's people all use long power linkages, in much the same way that western boxers do.

This makes perfect sense to me. Still, I would not discount what Alan Orr does. And, as he himself applies it, I see plenty of Wing Chun just beneath the surface. It's less apparent in some of his fighters. But then they are mixed martial artists and don't have the same amount of time in WC as Alan does. And regardless, they are effective in the ring. Gotta respect that!

So, here's a question for ya. Plenty of people get good at more than one art. Longfist as well as Southern short-fist boxing such as WC. Some may do WC and BJJ or shuai chiao. I do WC and Eskrima. So why can't someone do Wing Chun and Ring-Chun? You know, with gloves?

 

[Danny T]

So, here's a question for ya. Plenty of people get good at more than one art. Longfist as well as Southern short-fist boxing such as WC. Some may do WC and BJJ or shuai chiao. I do WC and Eskrima. So why can't someone do Wing Chun and Ring-Chun? You know, with gloves?

Great question... Makes excellent sense. Stop doing that; it just muddies the water.

Over heard a couple of muay thai members couple of week ago complaining about sparring the wing chun guys. "First time I sparred one of the wc people was surprising and humbling experince. I hate those odd circling punches and how they tie me up with their elbows and punch at the same time. It's like they have 4 arms."
Made me smile; proudly.

 

[LFJ]

In terms of things like fighting strategy, movement and body mechanics, Alan Orr's wing chun does not work in the way wing chun does.

Again, it doesn't work the way your Wing Chun does. Wing Chun is not one thing. There are many variants that result in vastly different types of fighters. If you can't acknowledge that, you are being wilfully ignorant just to disparage another lineage.

Ok, so you haven't done this then. That's fine, but why get angry when someone who has talks about it? Wing chun is not good as a ring sport for several reasons. The most obvious of these is its predictability. Just like boxing alone is incredibly predictable in an mma match. Wing chun is not a good martial art for the ring.

I have. I don't agree with you. If you can't fight in a ring, it just means you're not that great in general. That's your problem. Not Wing Chun's. You should be able to hold your own in whatever situation you find yourself where you need to hit or be hit.

It means that padding increases contact time and decreases the impulse imparted to the target in the collision (look up impulse). Think about what happens when you hit a snooker ball against another snooker ball. Compare with what happens if you use soft padded balls with the same weight and momentum.

This is retarded. You're being way to scientific about this stuff. Fighting doesn't happen in super slo-mo. If you can't fight well because your knuckles are lightly padded, you just aren't very good yet. You should stop splitting hairs to make up excuses and just train harder.

Wing chun is a martial art that uses shortened power chain linkages in the body for various reasons. Padding forces the use of longer power chains. You can see it in Kurths clips as he goes from no gloves to gloves.

His VT functions the same way with or without gloves, and it works, so...

You should ask someone about this.

You asked me. WTF?

I am often in HK. I could come and help to show you how bare knuckle training is essential for wing chun, and how gloved training is detrimental. You seem angry and it is difficult to convince an angry person with reasoned argument. Maybe seeing it will be more useful to you?

I'm not angry. Get real. This is only an online forum. I'm just direct, as VT has taught me. It would be easier for all of us around the world for you to just post up a clip of your training, since you run your mouth about people who are knocking out professional fighters with their Wing Chun while you're afraid to even say where you train or post a clip of what you claim.

 

[JPinAZ]

This is retarded. You're being way to scientific about this stuff. Fighting doesn't happen in super slo-mo. If you can't fight well because your knuckles are lightly padded, you just aren't very good yet. You should stop splitting hairs to make up excuses and just train harder.

Agreed.

I'm not angry. Get real. This is only an online forum. I'm just direct, as VT has taught me. It would be easier for all of us around the world for you to just post up a clip of your training, since you run your mouth about people who are knocking out professional fighters with their Wing Chun while you're afraid to even say where you train or post a clip of what you claim.

I second that. No one would be asking him for video if he was coming here with an open willingness to share and not talking down to people, slagging on others for doing things differently and putting people down for doing something he disagrees with. It would be easy to just film himself on one of his sparring sessions taking all these full-on knuckle shots to the face and show his implied 'purer' and superior methods (shouldn't take more than a minute). Instead, he's elected to instead spend a lot of money to fly around the world (both AZ and HK) and show people in person. Doesn't sound very efficient. And we know things like that really never happen when people say they are going to fly to meet someone to show them the truth in there online discussions.

But if he ever did come to AZ, I would be happy to give him the benefit of the doubt! I will surely be there to check out him taking full-on bareknuckle shots to the face with little-to-know damage per his claims. Sounds like fun!

 

[guy b.]

This discussion seems needlessly heated from my point of view.

This is because it started on another forum. Some people are angry with me. Therefore the argument from those people is disingenuous.

guy b., how do you train WC and spar in a bare knuckle context? Are you able to do this safely, without frequent / serious injury? Or, are you rather looking for advice on how to do this?

I train in what I think is a fairly typical way. I test my wing chun using bare handed contact at various levels up to full contact. I go full contact probably about a couple of times a month at the moment. I use chi sau to correct errors that show up under pressure. I don't train with gloves but in younger years fought under MT rules regularly and so I have a lot of experience training and fighting with gloves and other protective gear. Currently I train wing chun and bjj.

I think that most of us can agree that gloves hinder some of what we do in WC to some extent or another, so it's not as if he doesn't have valid concerns. The question is whether or not he can apply his training methodology with an acceptable level of safety -- given, that level might vary between individuals.

I think wing chun is better trained with reduced or limited contact and no protective gear than with protective gear. I think that protective gear is very detrimental to wing chun. Wing chun looks the way it does because it was developend for a specific context which is not ring fighting. Sport MA which use gloves also look a particular way because of the context under which they were developed and are trained.

Modern professional boxing is not old bare handed boxing. They are completely different things because of the training methodology and the conventions of the contest.

I do think that variety in training methodologies and equipment used is essential, and I can see where sparring with gloves all of the time and catering your WC to that specific context will introduce unwanted tendencies.

Of course. And I think people who do not acknowledge this point are being dishonest. Whether such tendencies are unwanted will of course depend on what you are trying to develop. I think that Alan Orr's group are aiming for sports cometition with protection. Therefore it probably makes sense therefore for them to train with gloves and to do wing chun as they do it.

To once again draw a HEMA comparison (sorry guys!), just look at many Longsword tournaments. Because many of them are sparring all of the time with blunt swords and heavy protective gear, many of them have the tendency to fight as if they were using clubs rather than sharp swords, feeling that they must leave an "impression" on the protected man underneath to "score" a "hit," even though they're practicing Blossfechten (unarmored combat, for which there is a completely separate method from armored combat). So, rather than skillful bladework, we sometimes get some abstract clubbing match vaguely resembling historical methods. Armor and safety equipment, and even a "competitive sparring" mindset/context absolutely does change what we do if we let it and don't sufficiently direct and diversify our training.

This is what often happens in sports derived from real combative activities. I believe the same sorts of issue can be seen in kendo, western fencing, western boxing, western wrestling. Muay thai is an interesting one in that it retains a lot of bare handed bias, I think because of cultural preference for certain techniques.

The key, I think, is to balance your training methods, and stay honest with yourself and your training partners about what you're practicing. And, again, I don't think one needs to include "full force, full contact, full speed" sparring to be effective. You can simulate aggressive intent and pressure test your skills in a wide variety of contexts, with and without protective equipment, and come away with applicable and useful combative skills.

I agree

 

[guy b.]

I second that. No one would be asking him for video if he was coming here with an open willingness to share and not talking down to people, slagging on others for doing things differently and putting people down for doing something he disagrees with.

I am very willing to share. I feel I am being talked down to rather than talking down to people. If people are polite then it is much easier to interact.

It would be easy to just film himself on one of his sparring sessions taking all these full-on knuckle shots to the face and show his implied 'purer' and superior methods (shouldn't take more than a minute).

It is disingenuous to misrepresent my argument in this way. This is the kind of thing that probably provokes the kind of response you find offensive.

Instead, he's elected to instead spend a lot of money to fly around the world (both AZ and HK) and show people in person.

Given the attitude to my argument, a meeting in person is much more likely to lead to constructive outcomes than a video. I am sometimes in HK and the US because I travel a lot with work. If I am somewhere that you happen to be then meeting up is something that I like to do.

But if he ever did come to AZ, I would be happy to give him the benefit of the doubt! I will surely be there to check out him taking full-on bareknuckle shots to the face with little-to-know damage per his claims. Sounds like fun!

I would be happy for us to spar bare knuckle when I am in AZ

 

[guy b.]

Again, it doesn't work the way your Wing Chun does. Wing Chun is not one thing. There are many variants that result in vastly different types of fighters. If you can't acknowledge that, you are being wilfully ignorant just to disparage another lineage.

Wing chun is a bounded set. There are things which are wing chun and things which are not. Do you agree?

I have. I don't agree with you. If you can't fight in a ring, it just means you're not that great in general. That's your problem. Not Wing Chun's. You should be able to hold your own in whatever situation you find yourself where you need to hit or be hit.

This is why meeting is better than arguing

This is retarded. You're being way to scientific about this stuff. Fighting doesn't happen in super slo-mo. If you can't fight well because your knuckles are lightly padded, you just aren't very good yet. You should stop splitting hairs to make up excuses and just train harder.

Ignorance of physical reality is not simple, direct and efficient. Contact time is important in terms of power generation. You don't throw a shot put in the same way you throw a punch, do you?

His VT functions the same way with or without gloves, and it works, so...

You should ask around a bit more before you make silly claims. Michael Kurth's wing chun does not function successfully in high level ring sports. It might function well as wing chun, but that is a different thing. Wing chun is not a ring sport

You asked me. WTF?

Your answer shows you need to find out more

I'm not angry. Get real. This is only an online forum. I'm just direct, as VT has taught me

You appear angry. Angry people are illogical and misrepresent arguments

It would be easier for all of us around the world for you to just post up a clip of your training, since you run your mouth about people who are knocking out professional fighters with their Wing Chun

Who is knocking out professional fighters with their wing chun? If you mean Alan Orr's team than that is professional in the widest sense of the word. I train with some mid level active fighters that trained with Orr a few years ago and their opinion is interesting. I have also been to his school and met him. I am not speaking from a position of ignorance.

you're afraid to even say where you train or post a clip of what you claim.

I am happy to come and show you. Please let me know where to come and then we will be able to resolve this silly dispute.

 

[guy b.]

Guy, this comment is spot on. I, on the other hand, disagree with some things you say ...but am not angry. So, I enjoy the exchange. And I admit you make some interesting points. Like the following:

This makes perfect sense to me

I think that here is not a good place to discuss such things

 

[nikthegreek_3]

Guys, speaking about Wing chun and because we mentioned Bruce Lee who definitely knew wing chun, here is a very good analysis about wing chun's expression. So watch the video in this page: CLICK HERE to support Bruce Lee - The Wing Chun Analysis, Episode 2