Is it possible to be good at wing chun...

[guy b.]

He just wants to act tougher than everyone else without having to substantiate it.

There is nothing particularly "tough" about training in a traditional way. It takes more physical toughness to spar several times per week with gloves according to the sports methodology. Training in that way takes it out of you in a way that traditional training does not. You should stop projecting.

He also wasn't just talking bareknuckle vs gloved, but headgear and other protective gear. Full contact sparring can be done with headgear to avoid serious cuts and broken noses, and I think it's an exaggeration to say it screws up distance to any substantial degree.

Many boxers and MT guys would disagree with you. Having used headgear I can say that I hate it a lot more than heavy gloves. The worst headgear I have used is daido juku helmets which train people to miss punches and to be unable to avoid punches properly, but regular boxing headgear is also awful for distancing.

but if guy b.'s VT doesn't even work with light gloves on

My VT will work with gloves on because I train without (i.e. I train ving tsun, a non-gloved martial art). Yours will not work if you only train with because you are training a different kind of punch and a different dynamic.

 

[guy b.]

So you're saying that training (ie. drilling) using low-to-no contact without gloved sparring will produce better fighting skills than those that also add gloved pressure testing to their training/drilling?

"No full contact" does not equal only "low-to-no contact".

Yes training chi sau and gor sau will produce better results in wing chun than training sparring with gloves, because gloves teach you to hit with gloves, and wing chun is a hitting method not designed for gloved situations.

 

[guy b.]

In the meantime I guess we can just assume that LFJ is just a wimpy-wimp with little girly nose-bones that break when a butterfly flutters by.

Sounds a bit silly. Most people are quite average, including me.

 

[guy b.]

#1 - Training is not sparring. Training is learning and developing. Practice is repetitively working the material to ingrain it. Sparring is bringing the training (your learning) and practice (the repetitions) into a testing mode. Proving it out under fight like conditions. It is not actually fighting.
#2 - Going full force in sparring is foolish.
#3 - My group 'trains' everything we do except Muay Thai bare handed. We practice the same. We practice hitting focus pads and wall bags (we don't practice by hitting someones face). We spar hard but controlled and with safety in mind.
#4 - As to being a wing chun purist, please tell us just what does that mean. After all wing chun itself isn't pure having had several modifications or additions to it over the years.
#5 - As to other arts like Muay Thai, Muay Baron, and others from that area of the world's bare knuckle fighting systems; They do very little sparring. A lot of training, practicing, and fighting but very little sparring. Why, because the fighters get Hurt and can't train for their next fight.

Different levels of testing are useful. Besides that your training sounds quite sensible.

 

[JPinAZ]

"No full contact" does not equal only "low-to-no contact".

Yes training chi sau and gor sau will produce better results in wing chun than training sparring with gloves, because gloves teach you to hit with gloves, and wing chun is a hitting method not designed for gloved situations.

A very naive reply that speaks volumes.

Nice cherry picking of everyone's replies BTW. You've conveniently ignored and avoided the main context of my reply, as well as other's here. It makes sense that you wouldn't have much to say to the rest of my post as you don't seem very comfortable discussing your background or experience with which you form your 'opinions'. This is typical behavior of people that talk out their backside and are in desperate need of attention... One might say you are now bordering on trolling and not interested in any genuine conversation - only repeating the same mantra

 

[guy b.]

To get good at wing chun it makes sense to train wing chun, not gloved striking methods. Your continued attempts at ad hominem speak volumes about the weakness of your argument.

What is the main context of your reply? Please be concise and I will do my best to answer.

 

[JPinAZ]

I'm not going to play that game and I shouldn't have to repeat myself. If you were genuinely interested, you could very easily go back a page and reread my previous post(s) you cherry picked. Reply to any (or all) of the questions if you're up for it. Or don't for all I care at this point

 

[The Great Gigsy]

To get good at wing chun it makes sense to train wing chun, not gloved striking methods. Your continued attempts at ad hominem speak volumes about the weakness of your argument.

What is the main context of your reply? Please be concise and I will do my best to answer.

How is sparring with gloves not praticing good wing chun? I would assume that everyone here who has stated that they use gloves of some type during sparring first learns techniques by striking focus mitts. Furthermore I have been in the unfortunate postion of using my training and in no way did the fact that we use gloves for sparring have a negative impact on me being able to defend myself.

 

[guy b.]

Here you go JPinAZ:

So you're saying that training (ie. drilling) using low-to-no contact without gloved sparring will produce better fighting skills than those that also add gloved pressure testing to their training/drilling?

Already answered

Why are you so afraid of people using gloves anyway? I think you're making a huge deal out of something that is really no big deal in most functional MA's

I'm not afraid of people using gloves

I'm curious, how much actual gloved sparring have you done in your WC training pror to going only-knuckle -on-skin? I'm not talking about 12-16oz boxing gloves, I'm talking about open finger/palm 8oz gloves, or even the 4oz MMA gloves?

I have done a lot of gloved striking arts before taking up wing chun. I boxed at university and trained MT for many years. I currently train bjj as well as wing chun. I have trained with mma gloves. They are better than boxing gloves but they are not as good as bare hand. If you are sparring 'hard contact' with mma gloves you are going to do as much damage as bare hands, bar the cuts, but more chance of broken noses etc.

I agree that WC is quit genius in it's approach to fighting, but what exactly is 'the wing chun approach' and who said it disallows the usage of protective equipment during skill testing/sparring?

The wing chun approach is the forms, drills, chi sau, gor sau and testing. Sparring with gloves is not testing because it is not checking that your wing chun is functional, unless you always wear gloves. On a serious not, regularly sparring in gloves is training gloved striking which is fundamentally different to empty handed sparring.

Aren't you making a bigger deal out of this that it really is? I mean, we're only talking about suing some protection while sparring.. WTF!

I think it is quite important which is why I go on about it a lot

And didn't say you use a mouth guard when you do all of your bare knuckle full-force-to-the-face sparring? I bet they didn't have those 200 years ago either, so looks like you're changing WC training methods also, Mr. Purist!!

A mouth guard doesn't alter anything fundamental about striking or movement. Neither does a groin box. Gloves and head protection do though which is why I don't like them.

Who said anything about anyone advocating changing training methodologies? I'm curious how long exactly you actually trained under your sifu(s) to know all there is to know all there is to 'wing chun training methodologies' to come here and play expert and question what everyone else is doing?

I don't know all there is to know about wing chun training methodologies. I'm not playing expert, just discussing. At the end of the day we all chose what we do.

If I recall, the last time you claimed to train under someone, they didn't even remember you. So could it be possible you just might not really understand things as well as you think?

They are worried about the bad publicity

Effectiveness then vs. now is impossible to determine, so no use going down that road.

I think there is value in asking if they were effective fighters without regular gloved sparring and how a genius system like wing chun could be created without regular gloved sparring.

can we really verify that they were sparring while in class at all (gloves or not)?

Yes we can, by asking people who were there.

 

[guy b.]

How is sparring with gloves not praticing good wing chun? I would assume that everyone here who has stated that they use gloves of some type during sparring first learns techniques by striking focus mitts. Furthermore I have been in the unfortunate postion of using my training and in no way did the fact that we use gloves for sparring have a negative impact on me being able to defend myself.

Sparring with gloves trains gloved striking. A good example of a wing chun group that trains all of the time with gloves is Alan Orr's group. Their wing chun reflects the gloved training.

 

[Danny T]

Sparring with gloves trains gloved striking.

No training with gloves trains gloved striking.
Training and practicing without gloves trains for bare hand striking, gloved sparring allows for safe sparring and headgear prevents cuts allowing less damage, less recovery time, and less training time loss.

 

[guy b.]

No training with gloves trains gloved striking.
Training and practicing without gloves trains for bare hand striking, gloved sparring allows for safe sparring and headgear prevents cuts allowing less damage, less recovery time, and less training time loss.

Sparring as commonly done is a form of training

 

[LFJ]

For those who may not know where guy b. came from and what is in his opinion the best video online showing VT "under pressure", here's the thread from the other forum, in which the people he claims as "previous teachers" (one in the video) denied even knowing him.

Excellent ving tsun under pressure

 

[Danny T]

Excellent ving tsun under pressure

Thanks LFJ.
I actually liked this but in our wc world this would be not be considered sparring and certainly isn't fighting.
Though better than most videos I've seen there was far to much straight forward attacks and backing up. Some angling but very slight. Also very little intercepting of the movement and no leg attacks at all (which was probably agreed upon) and very little clinching with all the bystanders calling for them to stop and break when in a committed clinch.
We consider this type of relaxed, friendly non committed action 'play time'. Sparring for us is hard but controlled punching and kicking. Clinching, sweeps, throws, and takedowns are also allowed.

 

[Danny T]

Sparring as commonly done is a form of training

Not all training is sparring. An important part but is only a small part. The fundamentals are utilized on the fly and under pressure in sparring but are developed in other aspects of training. Also new skills and applications are developed and ingrained in training then applicated and functionalized in free play and sparring.

 

[JowGaWolf]

The only thing you have to mindful when training with gloves is when you are doing training that enhances sensitivity (sensing movement and weight shift)

 

[LFJ]

Many boxers and MT guys would disagree with you.

Many boxers and MT guys would disagree with you.

See there, I can easily say it too. Doesn't support your argument. Not that it would anyway.

Having used headgear I can say that I hate it a lot more than heavy gloves. The worst headgear I have used is daido juku helmets which train people to miss punches and to be unable to avoid punches properly, but regular boxing headgear is also awful for distancing.

I can't say I'm familiar with the type of helmet you name, but I think if one can't hit someone because they don't have a helmet on, and they are used to hitting people with helmets, they might just... not be very good.

If you can clearly see your target, why wouldn't you be able to hit it? What happens when you fight people with smaller heads??

As for misjudging distance and not being able to avoid punches properly, as I said earlier, you should already be doing enough partner training and sparring without a helmet, so you'll already know distance, danger, etc., and the helmet will serve only as protection when the intensity is increased.

You're really exaggerating the detriment gloves and helmets have to learning to fight. It should not make that big of a difference to gear up for some hard sparring some times.

My VT will work with gloves on because I train without (i.e. I train ving tsun, a non-gloved martial art). Yours will not work if you only train with because you are training a different kind of punch and a different dynamic.

Do you have data to substantiate that last statement? I don't believe you. Bulky boxing gloves certainly get in the way, but light MMA type gloves do not change the way I punch, and I see no reason why they would if I only trained with gloves.

As you say, your VT will work with gloves. That just goes to show it's about learning to punch properly, and not so much about gloved vs barehanded.

 

[geezer]

Bulky boxing gloves certainly get in the way, but light MMA type gloves do not change the way I punch, and I see no reason why they would if I only trained with gloves.

As you say, your VT will work with gloves. That just goes to show it's about learning to punch properly, and not so much about gloved vs barehanded.

I have to agree. If Guy can apply his bare-handed VT training with gloves, then the converse can also be true, i.e. you can just as easily go from gloved sparring to bare-handed, especially if you use less bulky MMA gloves.



BTW here;s a photo of one of those "daido juku" or "space helmets" helmets Guy referred to:

http://cdn2.bigcommerce.com/n-biq04...ium-296-p__40160.1395029461.1280.1280.jpg?c=2

I've never tried one but they are pretty bulky and would not promote careful targeting. They also might be so protective that they lead to feeling overconfident about taking head-shots and not adequately protecting your head. They actually look like they would be better used for protecting the "attacker" in self-defense training.

 

[guy b.]

I can't say I'm familiar with the type of helmet you name

Obviously

If you can clearly see your target, why wouldn't you be able to hit it? What happens when you fight people with smaller heads??

Effective hitting is not about seeing. It is about expecting. The VT training methodology empasises this above all else.

As for misjudging distance ... the helmet will serve only as protection when the intensity is increased.

It depends on the balance of time you spend between protected hitting and unprotected hitting.

Do you have data to substantiate that last statement? Bulky boxing gloves certainly get in the way, but light MMA type gloves do not change the way I punch, and I see no reason why they would if I only trained with gloves.

Personal experience moving from sports sparring methodology to wing chun methodology. Completely different power generation and body mechanic. And use of gloves enforces a boxing style body movement and power generation. A good example of evidence for the detrimental effect of constant gloved training is the wing chun of Alan Orr's fight team. Do you prefer your wing chun to look this way?

I don't believe you.

No problem. I don't believe you either.

As you say, your VT will work with gloves. That just goes to show it's about learning to punch properly, and not so much about gloved vs barehanded.

You misunderstand. It will work as VT with gloves. Obviously with gloves on VT is a far from optimal way of fighting and will get you destroyed in the ring pretty quickly (try gloved sparring with decent boxers using VT and see what happens). Likewise the person that trains always will gloves will have something not quite VT that works without gloves to some extent (i.e. maintains whatever makes it what it is, is coherent). Of course this thing you create will not be optimal for the purposes for which VT was designed.

What is VT for do you think?

 

[geezer]

...VT and see what happens). Likewise the person that trains always will gloves will have something not quite VT that works without gloves to some extent (i.e. maintains whatever makes it what it is, is coherent). Of course this thing you create will not be optimal for the purposes for which VT was designed.

What is VT for do you think?

Most would say VT is for self-defense, not sport. Of course that means different things to different people. I thought the following clips with Martin Austwick and Matt Easton were rather relevant. Martin is a HEMA enthusiast and instructor with special interest in English historical pugilism (bare knuckle). He believes that the switch to the use of gloves in boxing, both in training and competition, was largely responsible for the dramatic changes in the way boxers punch. In bare knuckle days fighters fought like this:

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/e6/John_L._Sullivan_1898.jpg


Modern boxers fight more like this:
http://www.blackpressusa.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/05/box_g_mayweather_b1_300.jpg


So why did this change happen? Well here are some observations by Martin Austwick:

Anyway, I'm not about to go in for "full-contact. bare knuckle" training, but before jumping on a dogpile, it's worth noting that Guy B's ideas about the problems created by using gloves are not totally out in left field. Any thoughts?