Wing Chun and sparring - staying true to techniques

[DanT]

I saw this video online where some Wing Chun dude was like Wing Chun ppl shouldn't spar because it teaches you to not kill your opponent (srs). I have always sparred and always will. What's your take on it? furthermore, I often see vids of Wing Chun ppl sparring and their techniques go pretty much out the window. When I spar I try as much as possible to use the techniques I've spent tens of thousands of hours on (Pak da, lap da, tan da, etc), rather then pretending like I know how to kickbox. How come some people seem to forget about their techniques when they spar? Is it the pressure? How true do you try to stay to your techniques?

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I saw this video online where some Wing Chun dude was like Wing Chun ppl shouldn't spar because it teaches you to not kill your opponent (srs). I have always sparred and always will. What's your take on it? furthermore, I often see vids of Wing Chun ppl sparring and their techniques go pretty much out the window. When I spar I try as much as possible to use the techniques I've spent tens of thousands of hours on (Pak da, lap da, tan da, etc), rather then pretending like I know how to kickbox. How come some people seem to forget about their techniques when they spar? Is it the pressure? How true do you try to stay to your techniques?

If he seriously thinks that never sparring makes you a better practitioner of any martial art, he's drinking some bad kool-aid.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

pretending like I know how to kickbox ... How true do you try to stay to your techniques?

If your opponent steps in and tries to punch you, do you want to

- interrupt his forward movement by your low roundhouse kick even if roundhouse kick may not be emphasized in your MA system?
- use a 45 degree downward hay-maker to knock both of his punches down even if hay-maker may not be emphasized in your MA system?

If you have cross trained MA system A, B, and C, you still want to fight the way that you like to fight. You don't want any of your MA systems to tell you how you should fight.

 

[DanT]

If your opponent steps in and tries to punch you, do you want to

- interrupt his forward movement by your low roundhouse kick even if roundhouse kick may not be emphasized in your MA system?
- use a 45 degree downward hay-maker to knock both of his punches down even if hay-maker may not be emphasized in your MA system?

If you have cross trained MA system A, B, and C, you still want to fight the way that you like to fight. You don't want any of your MA systems to tell you how you should fight.

I agree, but my question is to wing Chun people, how true do you stay to your "core" hand techniques (lap, pak, tan, gan, etc) when sparring?

 

[KPM]

Dan, here is a thread along similar lines that you might enjoy checking out:

Wing Chun Sparring

 

[Danny T]

I don't think lap, pak, tan...etc. when sparring.
I'm more about angles and attacking his core through weight distribution & footwork. The pak, tan, gan...etc are but an instant in time, they happen because of intercepting, attacking, and/or clearing lines in order to continue to attack. Interception of the attack happens due to proper timing while using constant forward intent.

 

[obi_juan_salami]

This is exactly the purpose of drilling techniques thousands upon thousands of times. To make your body absorb each and every technique as a reflex action. So when it comes to sparring and it is too fast and stressful to 'think' of what to do your body will react naturally and according to whats being thrown at you. This messiness in sparring you see around is usually a result of sparring and "applying" to early.

 

[dudewingchun]

Would be good to see some sparring videos

 

[DanT]

Would be good to see some sparring videos

I'll try and upload some vids of me sparring Heavy, I usually spar 3 times a week so I'll see tonight if I can upload some vids.

 

[wingerjim]

I saw this video online where some Wing Chun dude was like Wing Chun ppl shouldn't spar because it teaches you to not kill your opponent (srs). I have always sparred and always will. What's your take on it? furthermore, I often see vids of Wing Chun ppl sparring and their techniques go pretty much out the window. When I spar I try as much as possible to use the techniques I've spent tens of thousands of hours on (Pak da, lap da, tan da, etc), rather then pretending like I know how to kickbox. How come some people seem to forget about their techniques when they spar? Is it the pressure? How true do you try to stay to your techniques?

Don't spar so you don't kill people....sounds like someone who is over rating themselves. The goal of Wing Chun has nothing to do with killing or not killing, it has to do with defending ones self and using enough force to stop the threat. As for sparing, we spar at my school within the context of practicing Wing Chun up to the point of nearly striking and sometimes we do strike, but always with the goal of using correct form and technique. This is often done from pak sau or chi sau.

 

[Punchy]

This messiness in sparring you see around is usually a result of sparring and "applying" to early.

couldn't agree more. I would say that is true for pretty much every other MA as well, which is why most MA sparring ends up looking like generic kick boxing

 

[Tony Dismukes]

My situation is a bit different, since a) I am a relative beginner in WT, with a bit over a year of experience and b) WT is just part of my overall game, so I don't feel the need to "fight like a WT guy."

For me, my WT comes out in sparring at certain points where it feels appropriate. Usually that's when I'm pressuring someone at close "dirty boxing" range, especially when I need to clear an obstruction. At longer range I'm usually using some sort of kickboxing or boxing structure. At closer range, I'm grappling. Between those extremes I may use dirty boxing, Muay Thai clinching, WT, or some combination of them all depending on the energy I'm feeling.

The "too deadly to spar" argument is generally nonsense. If sparring without smashing your opponent's windpipe is teaching you "not to kill" your opponent, then so is all your other training. You don't actually crush your partners windpipe in chi sao or lat sao or when drilling techniques or when doing forms or any other time. Also, anyone who thinks their WC/WT strikes are especially lethal compared to any martial art is living in a fantasy land.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

This messiness in sparring you see around is usually a result of sparring and "applying" to early.

couldn't agree more. I would say that is true for pretty much every other MA as well, which is why most MA sparring ends up looking like generic kick boxing

That raises a question, though. Arts such as boxing, Muay Thai, and most grappling arts introduce sparring fairly early on. Most students (unless they are unusually talented) do start out sparring with crappy, sloppy technique. However over time they become cleaner, more precise, and more in line with the principles taught in the art. This happens because

• they get dominated in sparring by senior practitioners with cleaner technique and emulate those sparring partners
• they discover that using the proper technique as taught by their coach just works better than their natural sloppy instincts.
• they get used to the pressure of someone trying to hit them/throw them/choke them/ generally mess up their technique and so they are able to relax and focus on moving correctly.
• they discover problem areas in sparring and then can better appreciate the solutions being taught in other (non-sparring) areas of training

This being the case, why shouldn't this process work for other arts?

 

[Danny T]

That raises a question, though. Arts such as boxing, Muay Thai, and most grappling arts introduce sparring fairly early on. Most students (unless they are unusually talented) do start out sparring with crappy, sloppy technique. However over time they become cleaner, more precise, and more in line with the principles taught in the art. This happens because

• they get dominated in sparring by senior practitioners with cleaner technique and emulate those sparring partners
• they discover that using the proper technique as taught by their coach just works better than their natural sloppy instincts.
• they get used to the pressure of someone trying to hit them/throw them/choke them/ generally mess up their technique and so they are able to relax and focus on moving correctly.
• they discover problem areas in sparring and then can better appreciate the solutions being taught in other (non-sparring) areas of training

This being the case, why shouldn't this process work for other arts?

^^^^^
We spar often and early...with about 50% of our students.
The other's aren't really interested in fighting but more interested in a great workout and learning a martial art.

 

[Punchy]

I've found through my own personal learning experience and through teaching that if you put someone into a competitive sparring situation too soon then they will revert back to previous training, or if they've had no other training, they will muscle through and clobber.
The approach I prefer early on is to 2 man drill the hell out of them in the initial months, allowing them to gain some pressure testing in a way they are more able to relax.... as they become more comfortable, then increase the pressure by adding sparring

Just one method of many to skin a cat, others are every bit as valid.

 

[KPM]

I like to do "progressive" sparring. Its sparring with multiple rules. Then you start taking away rules. ;-)

 

[ShortBridge]

Wars have been fought over this topic.

For what it's worth, I think sparring is an excellent drill. It does a great job of training things that are difficult to train otherwise. It does a terrible job of training other things, so just the right amount, in just the right way, at just the right time to compliment the rest of our training is key.

It is not, in itself, "fighting" or "combat" and making that leap is just as misguided as the people who think there is no value in it or that they are too dangerous to responsibly participate.

If your martial art is boxing, then it plays a much more significant role in your development because the rules of sparring are going to be much closer to the rules of your sport. Everything is somewhere on that continuum.

Years ago (and maybe still for all I know) a karate school in this area started having "open sparring" sessions where anyone from any style or no style could come and spar with them. Something that they were very proud of and I'll tip my hat to them for it. I asked "what are the rules?" and was told eventually, that you're barefoot. There are no kicks below the waist and no hands above the shoulders, but you can kick to the head. No grappling, throws or locks.

This would not have been a test of wing chun vs karate it would have been a test of their karate against my karate...which doesn't exist. Or I could have brawled or fallen back to the Muay Thai and boxing that I did 1/2 of my lifetime ago, but probably would have gotten owned, which would have proven two things to the world.

1) Wing Chun doesn't work in the "real world"
2) When Wing Chun guys spar it looks like some generic kick boxing

I'm not sure what I would have learned from it.

That's not a knock against sparring, it can be done and can be a very important part of training and I do a fair bit of it, but those YouTube videos mean nothing to me.

Look at the "Man Up Stand Up" videos that were made in NY in the last decade, though guys are or were doing a pretty good job with it and I think had a pretty good perspective of what it was and what it wasn't, if I remember right.

 

[obi_juan_salami]

That raises a question, though. Arts such as boxing, Muay Thai, and most grappling arts introduce sparring fairly early on. Most students (unless they are unusually talented) do start out sparring with crappy, sloppy technique. However over time they become cleaner, more precise, and more in line with the principles taught in the art. This happens because

• they get dominated in sparring by senior practitioners with cleaner technique and emulate those sparring partners
• they discover that using the proper technique as taught by their coach just works better than their natural sloppy instincts.
• they get used to the pressure of someone trying to hit them/throw them/choke them/ generally mess up their technique and so they are able to relax and focus on moving correctly.
• they discover problem areas in sparring and then can better appreciate the solutions being taught in other (non-sparring) areas of training

This being the case, why shouldn't this process work for other arts?

Well im not a boxer, nor have i ever prqcticed boxing. I do know a few boxers but thats about all so i cant comment of why they do what they do as none of it would be from experience. Perhaps boxing is more natural to pick up, maybe there is less to learn in terms of individual techniques, or more than likely its a different art with different goals and therefore practiced differently. All just guesses.

I have, however, done wing chun and can give you reasons why sparring is not done so early on. All the benefits you listed we do gain through sparring at a much later stage. The way wing chun is set out to be learned (three seperate empty hand forms and the dummy form) is a progression and a continuous refinement of individual compone ts of the art. Each and every technique has the potential to work by itself however that isnt wing chun being used holistically and applied as intended. Once all the techniques and forms have been refined and practiced to a high level in isolation they come together in prqctice on the wooden dummy and sparring. Once you have the 'tools' and the correct reflex reactions engrained into your body only then can you start to use the style in a flowing, powerful, mobile, stable manner combining and syncronizing footwork with upper body (it becomes a part of yourself). This is is a level we all strive for and is very hard to reach. Wing chun typically is not the most natural feeling martial art to practice wspecially in the beggining. It takes many years and hours of training each day to be able to move the way you should when using it and in turn gaining the benefits of moving in such a way. To develop the speed and power to actually deliver these applications also takes time and training especially in the early stages during foundation practice. So this is why, for us at least, sparring is not so useful early on. Without having refined the individual components to a high level and then learned to put them together its just a mess and can be very frustrating.

 

[obi_juan_salami]

Further to that by sparring early, because begginers dont know how to move, dont have the right reflexes, strength, speed etc. They can develop bad habits, wrong reactions which end up being a set back later on when you do learn to apply it all correctly.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Further to that by sparring early, because begginers dont know how to move, dont have the right reflexes, strength, speed etc. They can develop bad habits, wrong reactions which end up being a set back later on when you do learn to apply it all correctly.

I don't think that's a given, though. There are ways to make that graduation to sparring earlier in a student's training, without developing bad habits. I don't know that it would be superior in the long run (nor that it wouldn't) - just an observation that the way WC is delivered can change without changing the core of the art.