Is anyone out there STILL a Republican?

Marginal

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It has been my observation that many people claiming to seek the best for everyone are really only looking out for their self interest. The truely honest look out for thier interest, and respect other people when they look out after theirs.
That makes them selfish, not necessarily honest.

One is related to the other. If the parents don't even care enough to make those types of choices for them and instead try to pass off it off to the state, then no matter how good the teachers are the kids do not turn out as great as the parents who put in a lot of care.
Still silly. Parents can still choose schools within a district even if they're publicly funded. To say that a proponent of public education cares less about their kids is a lazy argument at best.

Isn't this really about the supremely selfish (making them the most honest I suppose) folks who don't have kids who bridle at the fact they have to pay a nominal amount to support someone else's kid getting an education?
 

Ray

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Isn't this really about the supremely selfish (making them the most honest I suppose) folks who don't have kids who bridle at the fact they have to pay a nominal amount to support someone else's kid getting an education?
I don't look at it as a person paying for someone else's kid getting an education, I look at it as repayment for the education that we got.

Although a childless friend pointed out that he had surely repaid for more than one kid.....
 
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michaeledward

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The thing is, our society benefits if all of our children receive an education. Or, even, if they don't get an education, if they are all in a supervised environment for most of the day.

I imagine it is difficult to imagine what our society would be like if only 50% of the children received any education. What if 25% only recieved an education to the 5th grade?

This question should not be about vouchers or magnet schools or charter schools. The question really should be, should there be mandatory public education, at all? Let us start with that, and then see where it leads.
 

Mr. E

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Isn't this really about the supremely selfish (making them the most honest I suppose) folks who don't have kids who bridle at the fact they have to pay a nominal amount to support someone else's kid getting an education?

Well, that is not what I was talking about. As per the title of the thread, I was commenting on how one party promises to force everything to be the same, and the other gives people the freedom to choose. Now it seems that you and others would like to make it a choice that you either support the
Democratic party or you want to do away with public education altogether. That is a false choice IMO.

But I am struck by the essence of your statement. You call people who do not want to pay for other people's responsibilities selfish. Your way of thinking is that people owe others something- and that you get a say in what they owe. That speaks volumes about how you think and how you view others.
 

Mr. E

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The thing is, our society benefits if all of our children receive an education.

Of course it now looks like you want to make this a case where you either support the Democratic view toward public education or you want to do away with it altogether.

But I thought your statements about how all society benefits somewhat striking and scary.

We are not talking about a situation where everyone in a country would be killed or enslaved such as when there is no military. We are talking about how some people get together and determine that life would be better for everyone if only the government came in and forced people to do things like pay taxes- right?

So, what if a majority of people thought that the best thing for all of society was teaching the true word of God (whatever it is- Yaweh, Allah, Cuthulu or Krishna) to everyone? If the majority voted it in, or something else like the superiority of white people, then all would have to support it for the common good. Even those that felt differently like myself. Who gets to determine what would be best for everyone- especially when you want to take away the chance for people to choose for themselves what is best for them?

As a matter of fact, but I do believe there are several cases right now of people losing their homes because their local communities thought that all of community would benefit more if their were instead shopping centers where they were. What are the rights of a few home owners when all of society is benefited, eh? That is, as long as it is someone else that has to give up their home to make where you live a bit richer.

Me, I worry when people try to convince others to sacrifice for the common good. I think people should be free to help out as much or as little as they feel is right and those that want others to sacrifice should lead only by example.
 
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michaeledward

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I cast my vote for manditory public education.

OK. If public education for all citizens should be mandatory, (let's assume to 18 years of age), we can begin to discuss an appropriate method of providing that mandatory education.

Clean slate here ....

What is an appropriate method of making this mandatory?
Where is this mandatory education to take place?
How is this mandatory education to be paid for?

No suggestion or answer is too crazy to be considered. How do we achieve mandatory education for all citizens under the age of 18?
 

Marginal

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But I am struck by the essence of your statement. You call people who do not want to pay for other people's responsibilities selfish. Your way of thinking is that people owe others something- and that you get a say in what they owe. That speaks volumes about how you think and how you view others.
I've never claimed to be a Libertarian.

Education's not a responsibility. It's a social necessity as well as a social good. I've long thought that the primary difference between current conservatives and liberals is that conservatives want to watch out for their own and then reactively punish those who step out of line while liberals will look after everyone in hopes of preempting some of those from stepping out of line in the first place. Reactive vs proactive.
 

Doc_Jude

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Of course it now looks like you want to make this a case where you either support the Democratic view toward public education or you want to do away with it altogether.

But I thought your statements about how all society benefits somewhat striking and scary.

We are not talking about a situation where everyone in a country would be killed or enslaved such as when there is no military. We are talking about how some people get together and determine that life would be better for everyone if only the government came in and forced people to do things like pay taxes- right?

So, what if a majority of people thought that the best thing for all of society was teaching the true word of God (whatever it is- Yaweh, Allah, Cuthulu or Krishna) to everyone? If the majority voted it in, or something else like the superiority of white people, then all would have to support it for the common good. Even those that felt differently like myself. Who gets to determine what would be best for everyone- especially when you want to take away the chance for people to choose for themselves what is best for them?

Can't happen. Not without some serious revisions to the Constitution, & the majority can vote all they want, the Framers made it that way. It's about civil liberties, not majority (read MOB) rule. But I get your point.

As a matter of fact, but I do believe there are several cases right now of people losing their homes because their local communities thought that all of community would benefit more if their were instead shopping centers where they were. What are the rights of a few home owners when all of society is benefited, eh? That is, as long as it is someone else that has to give up their home to make where you live a bit richer.

Yeah, Eminent Domain pisses me off. It's BS, if you ask me. Especially when the city decides that your land is worth half of what it's really worth. If they're gonna kick you off of your land, they should have to pay you 10x what it's worth. If you decided to sell, then whatever you negotiate & are happy with. Of course, I don't agree with the whole principle in the first place! Just my take.

Me, I worry when people try to convince others to sacrifice for the common good. I think people should be free to help out as much or as little as they feel is right and those that want others to sacrifice should lead only by example.

WORD!!!
 

Mr. E

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Education's not a responsibility. It's a social necessity as well as a social good.

That is your opinion. Why do you think that anyone should have the right to press their opinion on how people should live their lives on others?

People do want to live different lives from other people. Some people do not want the government to determine what people will learn and what to think. The very idea scares me.

And some people might want their kids to learn somewhat differently than what the government thinks is in their best interest. Some of the things I know some people want their kids to learn strike me as silly, as I am sure they would you. But the rights of Americans are not there to protect only popular opinions!

So if one party is saying that they will make every school the same (impossible) and every kid get the same type of education as determined by the folks in the capital and the other is saying that they will merely give parents the freedom to choose their own path and excel as much as they desire, then I would go with the latter.
 

Marginal

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That is your opinion. Why do you think that anyone should have the right to press their opinion on how people should live their lives on others?

That's going to make it kind of difficult to express any opinion of your own on the matter. (Since leaving it to the free market, Xenu etc all involves telling people how they should live in one way or another.)
 

Big Don

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posterthumb.png

Who would do such a thing? Republicans? Nazis? Oh, no...
DEMOCRATS:
http://media.www.gwhatchet.com/media/storage/paper332/news/2007/10/08/News/Seven.Gw.Students.Admit.To.Hanging.Controversial.Posters-3022092.shtml
 

Big Don

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That's going to make it kind of difficult to express any opinion of your own on the matter. (Since leaving it to the free market, Xenu etc all involves telling people how they should live in one way or another.)
So, religious people are all nuts and incapable of independent thought?
Gee, aren't you liberals supposed to be TOLERANT?
 
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michaeledward

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posterthumb.png

Who would do such a thing? Republicans? Nazis? Oh, no...
DEMOCRATS:
http://media.www.gwhatchet.com/medi...o.Hanging.Controversial.Posters-3022092.shtml

Did you read this article?

The people who posted these fliers did so in hyperbole.

Do you really intend to link this post, by a few college students, to the Democratic party?

You are aware that one of the posters, Mr. Adam Kokesh is an Iraq War veteran?

It is to our great dismay that the student body and the media missed the clear, if subtle, message of our flier: the hyperbolic nature of the flier was aimed at exposing Islamophobic racism.
 

Big Don

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Did you read this article?

The people who posted these fliers did so in hyperbole.

Do you really intend to link this post, by a few college students, to the Democratic party?

You are aware that one of the posters, Mr. Adam Kokesh is an Iraq War veteran?
They did it by putting another group's name on it? How brave, how courageous. So they didn't mean to cause trouble for the group they slandered? Sure...
Yeah, I know Kokesh is a vet, I also know he calls himself sergeant Kokesh despite the fact that he was busted to Corporal.
He was supposed to go to Iraq a second time, but was demoted from sergeant to corporal and not allowed to return after it was learned that he brought a pistol back after his first tour in 2004.
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,276615,00.html
Gee, criminals never lie about their actions or intentions, do they?
 

Touch Of Death

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They did it by putting another group's name on it? How brave, how courageous. So they didn't mean to cause trouble for the group they slandered? Sure...
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,276615,00.html
Gee, criminals never lie about their actions or intentions, do they?
I suppose thats one way to look at it. Do you have proof that was the case or is this just a random slandering?
Sean
 

Big Don

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I suppose thats one way to look at it. Do you have proof that was the case or is this just a random slandering?
Sean
The proof that they intentionally mislead people into believing the posters were put out by another group is in the original story linked in post #1.

That Kokesh was reduced in rank to CPL from SGT, he readily admits, as well as why. Yes, bringing Iraqi weapons home is forbidden, and an Article 15 is the military version of a misdemeanor
 
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michaeledward

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So, you knew the person who posted these flyers was a nut case. And you post the item, and associate it with all Democrats.

Wow.

Have you ever heard of Senator Max Cleland?
 
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michaeledward

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