Is a Stab a "show stopper"??

Martial D

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Ok so, I was the one that initially made the claim that the first hit generally ends a knife fight. Some good points were raised, and examples, of how people can and do keep fighting after theyve been hit, but generally only when they don't KNOW they've been stabbed.

What people that've never been in a high stress life or death situation like that might not realize, is that psychological damage can stop you too. Most people, in my experience, go into shutdown/panic mode once they grok the sight of their own blood.

Now, what this thread DOESNT have is examples to support any given point of view. I have brought a few.

WARNING. THESE LINKS ARE NSFW, do not view with children around, if you are squeamish, or just would rather not see examples of real knife fights.

IF THE MOD TEAM THINKS THIS IS GOING TO FAR, FEEL FREE TO DELETE THIS.

EXAMPLE #1 - machete fight
As soon as the older man is hit, the fight leaves his body.

Example #2
Same here. you can see as soon as the one man realizes he is stabbed, he no longer wants to fight.

Example#3
in this one the man drops as soon as he realizes he's been stabbed

 

lklawson

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Ok so, I was the one that initially made the claim that the first hit generally ends a knife fight. Some good points were raised, and examples, of how people can and do keep fighting after theyve been hit, but generally only when they don't KNOW they've been stabbed.

What people that've never been in a high stress life or death situation like that might not realize, is that psychological damage can stop you too. Most people, in my experience, go into shutdown/panic mode once they grok the sight of their own blood.

Now, what this thread DOESNT have is examples to support any given point of view. I have brought a few.

WARNING. THESE LINKS ARE NSFW, do not view with children around, if you are squeamish, or just would rather not see examples of real knife fights.

IF THE MOD TEAM THINKS THIS IS GOING TO FAR, FEEL FREE TO DELETE THIS.

EXAMPLE #1 - machete fight
As soon as the older man is hit, the fight leaves his body.

Example #2
Same here. you can see as soon as the one man realizes he is stabbed, he no longer wants to fight.

Example#3
in this one the man drops as soon as he realizes he's been stabbed
Psychological stops are real and a well-known phenomenon. But you can't depend on it. The person has to know he's been hit, has to believe that it's "bad," and has to decide that he's not going to fight through it.

4 Ways to Stop an Opponent by Using a Knife

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk
 

Tony Dismukes

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Ok so, I was the one that initially made the claim that the first hit generally ends a knife fight. Some good points were raised, and examples, of how people can and do keep fighting after theyve been hit, but generally only when they don't KNOW they've been stabbed.

What people that've never been in a high stress life or death situation like that might not realize, is that psychological damage can stop you too. Most people, in my experience, go into shutdown/panic mode once they grok the sight of their own blood.

Now, what this thread DOESNT have is examples to support any given point of view. I have brought a few.

WARNING. THESE LINKS ARE NSFW, do not view with children around, if you are squeamish, or just would rather not see examples of real knife fights.

IF THE MOD TEAM THINKS THIS IS GOING TO FAR, FEEL FREE TO DELETE THIS.

EXAMPLE #1 - machete fight
As soon as the older man is hit, the fight leaves his body.

Example #2
Same here. you can see as soon as the one man realizes he is stabbed, he no longer wants to fight.

Example#3
in this one the man drops as soon as he realizes he's been stabbed
There's no question that a non-lethal (or non-immediately-lethal) strike can end a fight immediately. Heck, some people give up as soon as they get a bloody nose or a black eye.

The question is whether you can reliably count on that happening. The context of the original discussion was a knife duel where you might have just delivered a mortal wound but you are still in arms reach of an armed opponent who still has time to return the favor.

The links posted by Kirk earlier in the thread gave historical examples of duels where one opponent was severely wounded, had plenty of time to realize it, and then kept fighting anyway, sometimes killing their opponent.

Some people will keep going like the Black Knight from Monty Python and the Holy Grail. Some people will go into shock and die from what shouldn't even be a life-threatening injury. It's safest to not assume any particular outcome.
 

Martial D

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There's no question that a non-lethal (or non-immediately-lethal) strike can end a fight immediately. Heck, some people give up as soon as they get a bloody nose or a black eye.

The question is whether you can reliably count on that happening. The context of the original discussion was a knife duel where you might have just delivered a mortal wound but you are still in arms reach of an armed opponent who still has time to return the favor.

The links posted by Kirk earlier in the thread gave historical examples of duels where one opponent was severely wounded, had plenty of time to realize it, and then kept fighting anyway, sometimes killing their opponent.

Some people will keep going like the Black Knight from Monty Python and the Holy Grail. Some people will go into shock and die from what shouldn't even be a life-threatening injury. It's safest to not assume any particular outcome.

Yes, there are a lot of counterexamples composing of heresay. Ive personally never seen any evidence of someone continuing to fight after being stabbed and leaking all over the place. Im sure it can happen(such as people that are severely drugged out or mentally ill), but it doesn't seem to happen very often. Those three examples come from a repository of hundreds, that all play out in a very similar way. I've personally seen a few people take stab wounds, and those all played out the same way too.

Maybe you have a different experience.
 

Dirty Dog

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Are you familiar with the Camp X / Fairbairn sentry removal throat attack?

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

I am, of course.
Of course, this attack was intended for an extremely specific situation, from ambush. And I would maintain that it would be better applied with the initial attack being a stab, rather than a blunt strike.
 

lklawson

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I am, of course.
Cool. Then you are familiar with the technique.


Of course, this attack was intended for an extremely specific situation, from ambush. And I would maintain that it would be better applied with the initial attack being a stab, rather than a blunt strike.
sure. I was just curious if you were familiar with it since it will seem to stack so well with what you are describing.

Peace favor your sword (mobile)
 

Dirty Dog

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I was just curious if you were familiar with it since it will seem to stack so well with what you are describing.

It does.

I will say that in the "classic" illustrations of this technique, I see two problems.
One is, as I said, the blunt strike rather than a stab. The cut itself is fairly unlikely to open the carotid, unless you execute it perfectly. For one thing, the head needs to be rotated. The illustrations usually show this, but it's not often mentioned specifically in the texts that I've seen. It's classically done starting under one ear and ending at the other. It needs to be continued past the ear to have enough depth to the cut to reach the carotid.

The other is the cut itself. As it's shown in the works I've seen, it's very high. Like right under the chin. I would actually suggest that lower would be better. So as to open the trachea below the larynx. If you disconnect the larynx from the lungs, it's really really difficult to make any noise.

That's important because of the specific circumstances for which this attack is meant.

Without the stab and head turn, there's a good chance this will not hit the carotid. But it will almost certainly sever the external jugular. That's not a super fast kill, but it is fairly quick. And if they can't make any noise, it doesn't really matter if it takes a couple minutes.

Goodness, we're a gruesome bunch...
 

elder999

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You mean the carotids? They're quire deep.
Cuts tend to be shallowest at their start and end points. So, you slash them ear to ear. Guess where it's shallowest? Yup. Right over where those arteries are.
If you want to cut someones carotid, the best plan is to stab them below the ear and then drag the blade forward. Or stab them several times.
Try to cut their head off......pretty much.
 

dvcochran

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It does.

I will say that in the "classic" illustrations of this technique, I see two problems.
One is, as I said, the blunt strike rather than a stab. The cut itself is fairly unlikely to open the carotid, unless you execute it perfectly. For one thing, the head needs to be rotated. The illustrations usually show this, but it's not often mentioned specifically in the texts that I've seen. It's classically done starting under one ear and ending at the other. It needs to be continued past the ear to have enough depth to the cut to reach the carotid.

The other is the cut itself. As it's shown in the works I've seen, it's very high. Like right under the chin. I would actually suggest that lower would be better. So as to open the trachea below the larynx. If you disconnect the larynx from the lungs, it's really really difficult to make any noise.

That's important because of the specific circumstances for which this attack is meant.

Without the stab and head turn, there's a good chance this will not hit the carotid. But it will almost certainly sever the external jugular. That's not a super fast kill, but it is fairly quick. And if they can't make any noise, it doesn't really matter if it takes a couple minutes.

Goodness, we're a gruesome bunch...
That was....very detailed. Hmm.....
 

lklawson

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It does.

I will say that in the "classic" illustrations of this technique, I see two problems.
One is, as I said, the blunt strike rather than a stab. The cut itself is fairly unlikely to open the carotid, unless you execute it perfectly. For one thing, the head needs to be rotated. The illustrations usually show this, but it's not often mentioned specifically in the texts that I've seen. It's classically done starting under one ear and ending at the other. It needs to be continued past the ear to have enough depth to the cut to reach the carotid.

The other is the cut itself. As it's shown in the works I've seen, it's very high. Like right under the chin. I would actually suggest that lower would be better. So as to open the trachea below the larynx. If you disconnect the larynx from the lungs, it's really really difficult to make any noise.

That's important because of the specific circumstances for which this attack is meant.

Without the stab and head turn, there's a good chance this will not hit the carotid. But it will almost certainly sever the external jugular. That's not a super fast kill, but it is fairly quick. And if they can't make any noise, it doesn't really matter if it takes a couple minutes.

Goodness, we're a gruesome bunch...
I was thinking of this one:
Thrust in and then rip it forward and out, like doing a pushup.

commando_training.jpg


Peace favor your sword,
Kirk
 

Dirty Dog

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That was....very detailed. Hmm.....

Well, if an ER nurse with a graduate degree in physiology and a couple years of MA training is going to talk about ways to kill, what do you expect? :)

I was thinking of this one:
Thrust in and then rip it forward and out, like doing a pushup.

commando_training.jpg

Gotcha. Yes. The versions I've seen start with a hammerfist to that area. This is pretty much exactly what I'm advocating (as a theoretical discussion only. Do not try this at home).
 

Rayrob

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Synchronised stabbing, they should make it an Olympic event.


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Gerry Seymour

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You wouldn't stab yourself?
I thought the same thing looking at that. That knife looks long enough to go right through. With that thing, I'd maybe favor the subclavian stab (offered as an alternative in at least one of the manuals describing sentry takeout).
 
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