Inverse your form

isshinryuronin

Master Black Belt
Joined
Feb 28, 2019
Messages
1,075
Reaction score
991
Location
Las Vegas
von Moltke, who understood better than anybody the difference between having a plan and fighting on instinct adaptively.
Gen. von Moltke was the 1800's Prussian Chief of Staff and was concerned with large scale strategy like Napolean's C of S., Jomini. (I've read Moltke's book, The Art of War. Jomini's, too) Such strategy is concerned with the general principles of warfare and is more immune to unforseen small scale events as it works on a slower time scale. His analytical and materialistic approach to strategy is different from Sun Tzu's which is more "organic" and more adaptable to small scale fighting, IMO.

On small scale conflict such as a fight, strategy is very basic: Choice of range, attack or counter, predominant weapon, take the high ground, etc. All else happens on a tactical level and at a much faster pace, such as what combo to throw. Tactics are very much affected by small events such as the opponent's lead side, elbow position, choice of reaction to a specific attack, etc. There are many surprises and adaptability is key.

Often, events unfold so rapidly even tactics are outpaced. There is ZERO time for a decision process to take place. Here is where constant training, mushin and muscle memory come into play. Although not technically "instinct" as it's developed, not inborn, it operates in a similar way in that the normal thinking process is bypassed. The body goes on auto pilot.

All three types of action processes can occur in a fight: Strategic, tactical and instinctual - in increasing levels of importance, and speed dependency, IMO.
 
OP
Kung Fu Wang

Kung Fu Wang

Sr. Grandmaster
MT Mentor
Joined
Sep 26, 2012
Messages
10,990
Reaction score
2,883
Location
Austin, Tx/Shell Beach, Ca
On small scale conflict such as a fight, strategy is very basic:
Agree! No plan = swing arms with blindfold.

My favor strategy is:

- A front kick to my opponent's knee (or a foot sweep) to put him in defense mode (I'll know where his legs are).
- A punch to his face to bait his block (I'll know where his arms are).
- My entering strategy will start after that.

IMO, it's too risky without be able to sense my opponent's legs and arms.

In this clip, the old man (my teacher's young brother) demonstrated 3 strategies.

- Attack his opponent's leading leg, then attack the back leg.
- Pull his opponent forward, he then borrow the resisting force.
- Touch his leg on his opponent's leading leg, when his opponent responds, he then enter.

 
Last edited:

Oily Dragon

Brown Belt
Joined
May 2, 2020
Messages
455
Reaction score
131
Gen. von Moltke was the 1800's Prussian Chief of Staff and was concerned with large scale strategy like Napolean's C of S., Jomini. (I've read Moltke's book, The Art of War. Jomini's, too) Such strategy is concerned with the general principles of warfare and is more immune to unforseen small scale events as it works on a slower time scale. His analytical and materialistic approach to strategy is different from Sun Tzu's which is more "organic" and more adaptable to small scale fighting, IMO.

On small scale conflict such as a fight, strategy is very basic: Choice of range, attack or counter, predominant weapon, take the high ground, etc. All else happens on a tactical level and at a much faster pace, such as what combo to throw. Tactics are very much affected by small events such as the opponent's lead side, elbow position, choice of reaction to a specific attack, etc. There are many surprises and adaptability is key.

Often, events unfold so rapidly even tactics are outpaced. There is ZERO time for a decision process to take place. Here is where constant training, mushin and muscle memory come into play. Although not technically "instinct" as it's developed, not inborn, it operates in a similar way in that the normal thinking process is bypassed. The body goes on auto pilot.

All three types of action processes can occur in a fight: Strategic, tactical and instinctual - in increasing levels of importance, and speed dependency, IMO.

So war is a system of expedients? Do tell.
 

JowGaWolf

Sr. Grandmaster
MT Mentor
Joined
Aug 3, 2015
Messages
10,614
Reaction score
3,566
They all want to be told exactly what to do and when, but life doesn't work like that.
I have a drill that eliminates this. When doing the drill it's easy to see who is trying to use kung fu and who is just going through form. It's an ugly sight to see but it works. To this day I still look awkward doing this drill.
 
OP
Kung Fu Wang

Kung Fu Wang

Sr. Grandmaster
MT Mentor
Joined
Sep 26, 2012
Messages
10,990
Reaction score
2,883
Location
Austin, Tx/Shell Beach, Ca
I have a drill that eliminates this. When doing the drill it's easy to see who is trying to use kung fu and who is just going through form. It's an ugly sight to see but it works. To this day I still look awkward doing this drill.
I have a drill that test new student's understanding about punch.

1. A punches, B blocks, A pulls punch back.
2. A punches, B, blocks, A pulls B's blocking arm back.

Interested result is 99% people will respond as 1.
 

shima

K3NPO
Lifetime Supporting Member
Joined
Apr 30, 2011
Messages
210
Reaction score
16
Location
Austin, TX
If you train form, do you ever think about at the end of your form, you start to do your inverse form?

For example, if your form starts with right hook punch, right front kick, right back fist, ... . At the end of your form, you connect with left hook punch, left front kick, left back fist, ...

Your thought?
A lot of our forms are assuming right handed attackers, so I will often do left side versions of our kata's for a fun challenge. It really puts a wrench into your normal reactions! Good for keeping you sharp.
 

Oily Dragon

Brown Belt
Joined
May 2, 2020
Messages
455
Reaction score
131
Define your use of "expedients." There are several shades of meaning.
The one in Militarische Werke. Moltke was well studied in The Art of War, since it had been published in French a century earlier. Organic was what he accomplished with European field command, turning his armies into well oiled machines with independent action. This way he was able to delegate field command to his units, and operate them as one.

Adaptation, deception, attrition, the keys to martial art, I think you'd agree. But the difference between having a plan for a fight and actually fighting is huge. You said it yourself, there's no time!

Training is the only place where it's safe to think "he's doing this, what am I supposed to do now?" or "I'm in a bad position, so I need to ...".

Try that in battle, you're probably gonna die.
 
OP
Kung Fu Wang

Kung Fu Wang

Sr. Grandmaster
MT Mentor
Joined
Sep 26, 2012
Messages
10,990
Reaction score
2,883
Location
Austin, Tx/Shell Beach, Ca
"he's doing this, what am I supposed to do now?"
If your opponent is a boxer, will it be better for you to kick on his leg/belly than to exchange punches with him?

kick_to_chest.jpg
 

Oily Dragon

Brown Belt
Joined
May 2, 2020
Messages
455
Reaction score
131
If your opponent is a boxer, will it be better for you to kick on his leg/belly than to exchange punches with him?

View attachment 27483
Never assume your opponent is anything, be ready for everything and you won't have this sort of mental dilemma.

Would you have this same question if it was a bear vs you in the woods? Two possible outcomes, you eat the bear, or the bear eats you. Or maybe everyone lives because you knew what to do without thinking about it.

What decides that is how well prepared you are, not what your game plan is. Play dead, run, fight? Better that you knew all about bears before you entered their turf.
 

punisher73

Senior Master
Joined
Mar 20, 2004
Messages
3,685
Reaction score
725
Never assume your opponent is anything, be ready for everything and you won't have this sort of mental dilemma.

Would you have this same question if it was a bear vs you in the woods? Two possible outcomes, you eat the bear, or the bear eats you. Or maybe everyone lives because you knew what to do without thinking about it.

What decides that is how well prepared you are, not what your game plan is. Play dead, run, fight? Better that you knew all about bears before you entered their turf.

I am still confused by your comments because they keep contradicting each other. Could you say how YOU define "strategy" and "tactics"? I'm not trying to be snarky or funny about it because....

"What decides that is how well prepared you are..." That is strategy, going over how you want to approach something based on a variety of circumstances and factors and then selecting the best approach (at the time).

"Play dead, run, fight"?....again parts of an overall strategy.

I can agree if you think that a strategy is something set in stone, such as "attacker does X, then I will do A, then when the attacker does Y, I will then respond with B" and so on. Strategy can and should be flexible to allow for chaos will still giving you an overall guiding approach.
 

Oily Dragon

Brown Belt
Joined
May 2, 2020
Messages
455
Reaction score
131
I am still confused by your comments because they keep contradicting each other.
Not really, but I'm sorry you're confused.

Try reading my comments over and over until they make more sense. Either it will happen or you'll get bored and move on.
 

punisher73

Senior Master
Joined
Mar 20, 2004
Messages
3,685
Reaction score
725
Not really, but I'm sorry you're confused.

Try reading my comments over and over until they make more sense. Either it will happen or you'll get bored and move on.

Gotcha. I was trying to be nice in my previous post in case I was misunderstanding you. But, if that is how you are defining those terms than it is obvious that you either don't know what you are talking when it comes to strategy in combat or don't want to admit that your postition is wrong.

Just so we're all clear.
 

Oily Dragon

Brown Belt
Joined
May 2, 2020
Messages
455
Reaction score
131
Gotcha. I was trying to be nice in my previous post in case I was misunderstanding you. But, if that is how you are defining those terms than it is obvious that you either don't know what you are talking when it comes to strategy in combat or don't want to admit that your postition is wrong.

Just so we're all clear.
I see you're still confused.

Now you're acting confrontational, too. I sensed that earlier, which is why I don't feel the need to explain myself.

You should train more. It'll help you find true clarity, not your forced version.
 

Oily Dragon

Brown Belt
Joined
May 2, 2020
Messages
455
Reaction score
131
Case in point. Don't bother trying to read the hanzi, it's written to confuse people.

1635536880171.png
 

punisher73

Senior Master
Joined
Mar 20, 2004
Messages
3,685
Reaction score
725
I see you're still confused.

Now you're acting confrontational, too. I sensed that earlier, which is why I don't feel the need to explain myself.

You should train more. It'll help you find true clarity, not your forced version.

Wasn't confrontational earlier, just noticing that you ignore everyone's posts (not just mine) that refute your viewpoint. I was trying to get some elaboration on why you think strategy won't work in a fight when you keep saying things that seem to highlight the need for strategy. Which is why I tried to ask how you were defining it.

I did get snarky after your statement to "just keep reading until I'm not confused or bored" because once again you failed to actually discuss points being made and ignored them and responded with "not really". If you would like to discuss, then I am open to your reasoning on how you view those.


Since this started with the Mike Tyson meme, here is an article discussing what I mentioned in regards to boxing strategy.

Also how was Miyamoto Musashi also wrong about strategy in a fight?

I just find it interesting working in LE/Corrections for almost 25 years and studying/practicing martial arts for over 25 years, all of the times that I have used strategy to win in a chaotic environment from one on one fights to planned cell extractions to tactical planning for raids.

We can just as easily throw out the old quote which is often used by military spec ops, "A failure to plan is a plan to fail".
 

Wing Woo Gar

Purple Belt
Joined
Sep 30, 2021
Messages
384
Reaction score
121
If you train form, do you ever think about at the end of your form, you start to do your inverse form?

For example, if your form starts with right hook punch, right front kick, right back fist, ... . At the end of your form, you connect with left hook punch, left front kick, left back fist, ...

Your thought?
Excellent! We train tai chi yang long form like this! Try it to the left, ooh its very difficult at first but pays great dividends.
 

Wing Woo Gar

Purple Belt
Joined
Sep 30, 2021
Messages
384
Reaction score
121
Xingyiquan 5 elements is first taught in a specific order, generally. There is another, less seen, order I cannot remember at the moment. Generally taught in the order of Piquan, Zuanquan, Bengquan, Paoquan, Hengquan. However what should be done after learning them in that order (this is rarely done by the way) this order should be mixed up and trained in multiple orders. Also, each form should be trained with different stepping, reverse fist/leg, circularly, going backward, etc. But most of this type of training in Xingyiquan is not done these days

As for Yang Taijiquan, at least my flavor of it. We did not mix up the order of the form, but we do reverse things a bit. INstead of starting with going to the right, we go to the left and continue doing the form from the other side from beginning to end. This too is rare to see these days
Exactly how we do it!
 

Oily Dragon

Brown Belt
Joined
May 2, 2020
Messages
455
Reaction score
131
Wasn't confrontational earlier, just noticing that you ignore everyone's posts (not just mine) that refute your viewpoint. I was trying to get some elaboration on why you think strategy won't work in a fight when you keep saying things that seem to highlight the need for strategy. Which is why I tried to ask how you were defining it.

I did get snarky after your statement to "just keep reading until I'm not confused or bored" because once again you failed to actually discuss points being made and ignored them and responded with "not really". If you would like to discuss, then I am open to your reasoning on how you view those.


Since this started with the Mike Tyson meme, here is an article discussing what I mentioned in regards to boxing strategy.

Also how was Miyamoto Musashi also wrong about strategy in a fight?

I just find it interesting working in LE/Corrections for almost 25 years and studying/practicing martial arts for over 25 years, all of the times that I have used strategy to win in a chaotic environment from one on one fights to planned cell extractions to tactical planning for raids.

We can just as easily throw out the old quote which is often used by military spec ops, "A failure to plan is a plan to fail".

Yes you were, and it's because you need to read Moltke, and train more. Preferably in the original Klingon.

Listen....lots of Klingons died...to bring you this message.
 
Top