Basic tools for all striking art

[Headhunter]

The concern is even if you have dodged the 1st punch, the 2nd punch will still come. The moment that you can obtain a clinch, the punching game end and the wrestling game will start.

IMO, to extend your arms into your opponent's punching path and "hide your head behind your arms" is so simple and logical.

You do know you can punch from a clinch right? Or knee or elbow or bite or head butt or shove your finger into his eye or just hold him while other people hit him....being clinched up in a real fight is never a good idea imo you’re more exposed and at risk in a clinch because at least I can move and escape when I’m not in one When I’m clinched up someone I’m stuck because then they’ll start trying to get the dominant position and then I’m in a wrestle where I’m stuck

 

[_Simon_]

Where I either try to lock onto him, or shove him. I prefer shoving when he's off balance, I've practiced shoving most of my Martial life. Then follow that shove.

The shove is very underutilised and underrated hey!

If a strict traditional karate instructor comes up to you in sparring and says, "HEY! We don't shove here!", you can say:

"Oh it was morote shotei uchi Sensei!"

"...... very good... carry on..."

 

[Buka]

The shove is very underutilised and underrated hey!

If a strict traditional karate instructor comes up to you in sparring and says, "HEY! We don't shove here!", you can say:

"Oh it was morote shotei uchi Sensei!"

"...... very good... carry on..."

Thanks, Simon.

I wouldn't do it in sparring, though, not even to my own guys. Fighting, sure, and maybe on occasion in boxing, but not in general Martial sparring.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

Thanks, Simon.

I wouldn't do it in sparring, though, not even to my own guys. Fighting, sure, and maybe on occasion in boxing, but not in general Martial sparring.

Why? I've been shoved before a hook punch/roundhouse kick/spinning kick plenty of times, and always thought it was a good combo. Is this breaking some unwritten rule I'm unaware of?

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Why? I've been shoved before a hook punch/roundhouse kick/spinning kick plenty of times, and always thought it was a good combo. Is this breaking some unwritten rule I'm unaware of?

I’m curious about this, too. I teach my students to shove. Unless the sparring is to be strictly strikes-only (purposeful limit on tools available), we’re all going to be shoving if there’s a chance.

 

[Buka]

I’m curious about this, too. I teach my students to shove. Unless the sparring is to be strictly strikes-only (purposeful limit on tools available), we’re all going to be shoving if there’s a chance.

Why? I've been shoved before a hook punch/roundhouse kick/spinning kick plenty of times, and always thought it was a good combo. Is this breaking some unwritten rule I'm unaware of?

Oh, I agree. I should have been clearer.

I don't really consider what you're describing as a shove. More like a push to follow up with whatever technique you like, I've used it a lot with hook punches. Both real close in hooks and slightly wider ones.

I've used that little push with a roundhouse, too, bringing it angled up over their shoulder. Kind of like what we called a "shovel hook" punch, which is a part uppercut, part hook punch, only with a roundhouse kick - it has a little angle of a front kick.

I always considered a "shove" as moving someone right off his feet, off his stance, with quick power blast, like you would use in a weight lifting snatch....

With a shove, at least the way we use it, it's a full body, leg driven double hand ooomph meant to move somebody. If they're taller and bigger you angle them slightly upwards, raising their center of gravity a bit. Obviously, you have to be in the proper position to do so.

Sometimes in crowds or riots, the "shovee" crashes into others and clears more of a path. I know, I know, that's a politically incorrect thing to say these days, especially as a cop, but I've had to do it in that past. Worked beautifully and nobody was really hurt. If you've never been in a riot, they're probably just like you imagine, they suck. And there's a big difference between a gathering, group protest and a full blown riot.

As a self defense technique dealing with one or a few, a shove really moves somebody several feet, or off their feet completely and down. You can follow it immediately if that person has to be controlled or move to the second person you have to deal with

That's what I mean as a shove. Full body, full power application of your legs, hips, back and arms. With practice, it can be a thing of beauty.

 

[Buka]

P.S.

The one inch punch Bruce Lee used to do in demos? That's a shove.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

I've practiced shoving most of my Martial life. Then follow that shove.

a shove really moves somebody several feet, or off their feet completely and down. You can follow it immediately if that person has to be controlled or move to the second person you have to deal with.

I don't understand your logic here.

- You push your opponent away (increase distance).
- You then move in and control him (decrease distance).

Should you pull him into you instead? Keep your friends close and your enemies closer.

 

[Buka]

I don't understand your logic here.

- You push your opponent away (increase distance).
- You then move in and control him (decrease distance).

Should you pull him into you instead? Keep your friends close and your enemies closer.

Sometimes I push him, sometimes I pull him. It depends on what the situation dictates.

I always thought this song was about fighting...

You've got to know when to hold 'em
Know when to fold 'em
Know when to walk away
And know when to run.

To me it is.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Oh, I agree. I should have been clearer.

I don't really consider what you're describing as a shove. More like a push to follow up with whatever technique you like, I've used it a lot with hook punches. Both real close in hooks and slightly wider ones.

I've used that little push with a roundhouse, too, bringing it angled up over their shoulder. Kind of like what we called a "shovel hook" punch, which is a part uppercut, part hook punch, only with a roundhouse kick - it has a little angle of a front kick.

I always considered a "shove" as moving someone right off his feet, off his stance, with quick power blast, like you would use in a weight lifting snatch....

With a shove, at least the way we use it, it's a full body, leg driven double hand ooomph meant to move somebody. If they're taller and bigger you angle them slightly upwards, raising their center of gravity a bit. Obviously, you have to be in the proper position to do so.

Sometimes in crowds or riots, the "shovee" crashes into others and clears more of a path. I know, I know, that's a politically incorrect thing to say these days, especially as a cop, but I've had to do it in that past. Worked beautifully and nobody was really hurt. If you've never been in a riot, they're probably just like you imagine, they suck. And there's a big difference between a gathering, group protest and a full blown riot.

As a self defense technique dealing with one or a few, a shove really moves somebody several feet, or off their feet completely and down. You can follow it immediately if that person has to be controlled or move to the second person you have to deal with

That's what I mean as a shove. Full body, full power application of your legs, hips, back and arms. With practice, it can be a thing of beauty.

Got it. Yeah, that’s hard to do safely in training.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Sometimes I push him, sometimes I pull him. It depends on what the situation dictates.

I always thought this song was about fighting...

You've got to know when to hold 'em
Know when to fold 'em
Know when to walk away
And know when to run.

To me it is.

Sometimes I push him, sometimes I pull him. It depends on what the situation dictates.

I always thought this song was about fighting...

You've got to know when to hold 'em
Know when to fold 'em
Know when to walk away
And know when to run.

To me it is.

Man, I am definitely stealing that.

 

[drop bear]

Oh, I agree. I should have been clearer.

I don't really consider what you're describing as a shove. More like a push to follow up with whatever technique you like, I've used it a lot with hook punches. Both real close in hooks and slightly wider ones.

I've used that little push with a roundhouse, too, bringing it angled up over their shoulder. Kind of like what we called a "shovel hook" punch, which is a part uppercut, part hook punch, only with a roundhouse kick - it has a little angle of a front kick.

I always considered a "shove" as moving someone right off his feet, off his stance, with quick power blast, like you would use in a weight lifting snatch....

With a shove, at least the way we use it, it's a full body, leg driven double hand ooomph meant to move somebody. If they're taller and bigger you angle them slightly upwards, raising their center of gravity a bit. Obviously, you have to be in the proper position to do so.

Sometimes in crowds or riots, the "shovee" crashes into others and clears more of a path. I know, I know, that's a politically incorrect thing to say these days, especially as a cop, but I've had to do it in that past. Worked beautifully and nobody was really hurt. If you've never been in a riot, they're probably just like you imagine, they suck. And there's a big difference between a gathering, group protest and a full blown riot.

As a self defense technique dealing with one or a few, a shove really moves somebody several feet, or off their feet completely and down. You can follow it immediately if that person has to be controlled or move to the second person you have to deal with

That's what I mean as a shove. Full body, full power application of your legs, hips, back and arms. With practice, it can be a thing of beauty.

Yeah. I do it. There is kind of a trick to it.

 

[drop bear]

I don't understand your logic here.

- You push your opponent away (increase distance).
- You then move in and control him (decrease distance).

Should you pull him into you instead? Keep your friends close and your enemies closer.

That clip you show with the cross stepping one two punches. A push would facilitate that.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Sometimes I push him, ...

When you push your opponent, there is a difference between

1. You control his back leg,

2. You don't control his back leg.

 

[JP3]

You ain't just whistling Dixie, bro. Uh oh, I inadvertently used a southern reference. I half expect the protesters to storm the yard and topple my statue of Mona Lisa Vito. Cuz, you know, she was from South Brooklyn.

But, yes, one must certainly be aware. It used to be just of stationary cameras, but now with cell phones...

Comments on folks wanting to pull down statues... and statutes both aside, you know what's funny?

What happens to a bad guy if a very good judo player (or good grappler from any art) conceals his viciously-minded defense mindset from the camera with apparent ineptitude...

Think simple one-arm shoulder throw. Done competently, with speed and power, the opponent can be made to fly up and over the shoulder and impact heavily, but controlled, primarily on their back with the head & neck protected from the ground, dirt, concrete, gravel whatever by the competent player's supporting drag on the arm from which the person was thrown. Makes sense to everyone, right?

But, same judo dude with bad attitude and mean mind can initiate same throw apparently "lose it" in mid-throw... which just happens to be when the other dude is lofted up and over ... into thin air, generally pointed head down at the ground. Too bad for that dude. Might he get out of it? Sure, if he's had enough ukemi/falling training to automatically organize his body to accept the fall in the time he's got. Most folks don't have this level of internalized skill.

And... prove the judo dude did it on purpose. Barring him telling folks about it being his idea... all he's got to do is point at said video and say, "I don't know what happened... he swung at me and I... just reacted, I guess. I didn't mean to hurt anybody..."

 

[Buka]

A shove is an explosive move. It's the kinetic chain thing, rooted from the ground, up through all the major muscle groups ending with the arms, chest, shoulders and back. It's like that last split second when a bull whip cracks.

If you hit with a fast punch, how long does the surface of a fist stay in contact with the surface of a face? Especially as opposed to if you were putting a hand to someone's chest that was walking into you because they weren't looking where they were going.
That's how I think of a shove compared to a push.

A shove is beastial release of human fury using the entire body and ending with both arms exploding the hands into a target for one split second. Making said target lose its base. Maybe even fall down go boom.

 

[JP3]

A shove is an explosive move. It's the kinetic chain thing, rooted from the ground, up through all the major muscle groups ending with the arms, chest, shoulders and back. It's like that last split second when a bull whip cracks.

If you hit with a fast punch, how long does the surface of a fist stay in contact with the surface of a face? Especially as opposed to if you were putting a hand to someone's chest that was walking into you because they weren't looking where they were going.
That's how I think of a shove compared to a push.

A shove is beastial release of human fury using the entire body and ending with both arms exploding the hands into a target for one split second. Making said target lose its base. Maybe even fall down go boom.

Beastial release... you bad guy you...

However, your explanation of the "time on target" thing sounds exactly like the atemi-waza stuff we've got in Tomiki... Put hand on face and use the kinetic energy given you (which is either you moving your entire body through their place in space OR rooting and allowing them to try to move You while you've got a hand on their face), it's definitely a wake-up call. There's a video of a cop online somewhere (don't know how to find it, sorry) using one of these and the guy 's face stays in one spot and his feet fly up higher than his head.

It's just not as satisfying as landing a great elbow shot to the jaw, though. Beastial, indeed...

 

[Buka]

Beastial release... you bad guy you...

However, your explanation of the "time on target" thing sounds exactly like the atemi-waza stuff we've got in Tomiki... Put hand on face and use the kinetic energy given you (which is either you moving your entire body through their place in space OR rooting and allowing them to try to move You while you've got a hand on their face), it's definitely a wake-up call. There's a video of a cop online somewhere (don't know how to find it, sorry) using one of these and the guy 's face stays in one spot and his feet fly up higher than his head.

It's just not as satisfying as landing a great elbow shot to the jaw, though. Beastial, indeed...

As a young man I managed a pool hall on the couple nights I didn't train. Sat behind a counter, giving out the balls, chalk etc, starting the time on the clock when the eighteen tables were being used, and mostly reading Karate books until locking the place up at 11.

There was a slight ruckus by one of the tables so I walked over, everyone watching. The guy I was walking towards was walking backwards, yelling at his buddy in a loud but joking way. When he turned quickly the long cigar he had in his mouth burned my beard in a spay of sparks - I shoved him.

He came out of his Penny Loafers. He was propelled backwards and tumbled head over heels.

His Penny Loafers never moved. Probably a one in a hundred shot, but still talked about today by the people who were there. It was a good shove.

 

[Ivan]

I am feeling arguementative, whilst jab, hook, cross, front kick etc are usefull to most, what if as your opponent, I sit on the floor?

Then we can walk away

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

I shoved him.

But the pushing is so easy to be countered. If your opponent grabs on your wrist, his body and your body are connected as one unit, you can't push him back.

This is why in Taiji pushing hand, grabbing is not allowed. The grabbing by itself can destroy all the pushing game.

This is also why ground game can happen in a Judo game. When you throw your opponent, your opponent will drag you down with him.

A: As long as I keep moving back and remain distance, none of your MA technique will work on me.
B: As long as I can grab on you, when you move back, you will pull me into you.

In the following clip, the reason that one can push the other because grabbing is not allowed.

In this clip, one can't push the other back because the grabbing.