Internal Training

[Kodanjaclay]

I know that we are supposed to have internal training... but my question is, how many of us do? If you do, what methods do you use? Do you train in Iron Shirt or some other supplement?

 

[dosandojang]

Chi Gong. From Grand Master Yong M. So. He just got his DOM, and aside from being a 9th Dan in Hap Ki Do, is a 30 year Master of Tai Chi Chuan. I am only now a couple years into soft, internal-healing Martial Arts...Having spent the first 25+ years destroying my body with HARD style Martial Arts....

 

[Makalakumu]

With our style of Tangsoodo, we start with belly breathing and the soft and snappy part part of our forms - getting back to the chinese roots. By the time we reach first dan our forms need to look fast, effortless, and powerful. I always thought this was the essence and the difference of TSD. By definition, is TSD a "hard" martial art? What about choon gal ryu?

At green belt we learn moo pal dan kun - eight advanced military breathing exercises - which emphasize a dynamic cycling of energy throughout the body.

At red belt we learn the accupressure/puncture points that correspond to the movements in our forms and how it all fits into the cycle of creation/destruction.

For first dan we much demonstration knowledge of healing and harming using points and cycle of creation/destruction.

There is a lot more that we practice in class which comes from a variety of styles, but we are not formally tested on it. My instructor says that ANYTHING you see in class may be part of your test, yet we still are given a requirement sheet.

As we test for higher ranks, this knowledge only gets more indepth. In fact, I wrote the beginners manual that is used in our class because this was not included in the vision that Hwang Kee set out for the SBD federation.

The Kwanjangnim hints at the existance. In his book he states that there are points that cause death, blindness, paralysis, and weakness throughout the body and that these points can also be used to heal. If a member of kodanja is respectfully questioned about this, they are not forthcoming with any real information though. I guess the motivation for their evasions are either ignorance or the presence of secret knowledge within the art.

I am not intending to disrespect the kodanja of our art, but this dielectic was one of the reasons my instructor broke away from the SBD federation a few years ago. There has to be some reason why they take four hours to SHOW ha dan mahkee at the Kodanja test!

Curse my mind and its quest for knowledge! Its a mystery and I can't help but be curious.

You guys practice Iron Shirt? We've done some of the basic breathing that goes into that, but nothing more. My Tai Chi instructor told us that it takes 10 years off your life. The dynamic energy involved hastens the degredation of the entire system. I'm not sure what that means...perhaps its kind of like burning the candle at both ends. Your body takes a beating on the outside and on the inside the energy burning bright and hot to counter it.

Thoughts...

upnorthkyosa

PS - I am greatful to have two such knowledgable practicioners of TSD on this board. Thanks for your input.

 

[Kodanjaclay]

"At green belt we learn moo pal dan kun - eight advanced military breathing exercises - which emphasize a dynamic cycling of energy throughout the body."

This is not right. Pal Dan Kum is not advanced nor is it military. It is actually the standing set of an exercise called Ba Duan Jin and, according to legend, created during the Song Dynasty by Marshal Yueh Fei. This is the same person that is credited with the creation of Eagle Claw. Pal Dan Kum was taught for health to civilians, and to Boxing practitioners.

Ba Duan Jin should use a simplified version of the same kind of breathing found in Iron Shirt, but has been shown to be more efficacious with something called pulsing breathing, as it builds up less pressure and has a lower risk of injury.

Bal Dan Kum is a basic form of Ki-Kong (Ki-Kong is Qigong in Korean).

The NQA, National Qi Association has a host of training events. There is also a group affiliated with Taoist Master Mantak Chia that has events as well. That group is called Healing Tao. Both of them can further your knowledge of QiGong.

I personally prefer Iron Shirt and the Shaolin Version of Ba Duan Jin. That version is more continuous in movement, and seems to help "crack" my back. For whatever reason, all of my tension goes right into my back and neck, and the twisting in that version seems to help release it making me by far more comfortable.

Steve,

One does not destroy the body with Hard Style. Though the health benefits are not as great as with an internal style, one actually needs both. Fa Jing requires a certain amount of muscle tension, as does simple acts of life. Remember that if one goes to far to either Um or Yang, the opposite will be found. I suspect this is why Hwang Kee moved from the Pyung Ahns to the Chil Sung and Yuk Ro as the intent behind those is to be more harmonious with practice. According to Hwang Kee, Tang Soo Do was based on the philosophy of No Ja. This is why the TSD version of the PA forms is not as hard as the version taught by the Chung Do Kwan. Master Bowman recently did a comparison and he said that in his opinon the version we do seems more consistent with the way the Softer schools of Karate do it, than Shotokan. I'm inclined to agree. I do think that there is some discrepancy in Volume II because certain forms attributed to Northern Style do not have characteristics of Northern Style, and the same is true of the Hyung associated with Southern style. I think the solution to this is simple, and that Master John Hancock stumbled onto it. Master Hancock, if you remember, and I went rounds about Ship Su actually being a tiger form,and I showed it to a Tiger Sifu who said no way. But that was Southern Tiger, or to be more specific Hung Gar. I practice an art called Shandong Black Tiger, a relatively rare martial art, and yet in one of my sets there is a sequence which appears that if a similar sequence in modified slightly in Ship Su, is the same sequence, with the same movements and in the same order. That gives pause. I think that the TSD hyung are just so far removed from our Chinese cousins that typical classifications do not function anymore. Ship Su appears to be a Southern style Hyung, but the Shandong province is a Northern province. Shandong Tiger has characteristics from both North and South, though it is a Northern system.

Opinions?

 

[dosandojang]

Frank, you don't think Sosai (Choi) Oyama destroyed his body from all of the Kyukpa training? My GM, Yong M. So (DOM), says that HKD, TKD, Karate, etc., destroy the body (if done hard core like Kyokushinkai). I can let you speak with him if you woud like. He is 9th Dan KHA, and recently was promoted to 10th Dan by his peers in the HKD community. He teaches for KIHAP and KMAIA (NO relation to hackworth!!!!! NONE!!!!) during seminars. He won the Gold Medal in China for Tai Chi Chuan as well. He has almost 30 years in the Internal Arts of China, and I take his word. Now I know where you are coming from though Frank, when you say that we need both hard and soft. To a DEGREE. But I am talking about the Masters who spend their whole life, practicing hard style ONLY. This will break down the body, give you arthritis, etc. GREAT Karate legend and champion Hirokazu Kanazawa says the same thing. He spent his whole life doing hard core Shotokan, and really did a number on his body. But during his later years, he found Chinese Internal Martial Arts, and has now fused that into his own style. He now lives a better life he says, through all of the Chi training. Anyways, I hope you now understand what I meant. Peace......

 

[dosandojang]

And Frank, yes...I remember Masters Hancock and Nolan.

 

[dosandojang]

I must say Frank, that you know more about Kung Fu and its styles than I do. I hardly know anything about Kung Fu (other than my recent start into learning Tai Chi throug GM So). I cannot give any opinions in this area. As for Sip Soo being a Tiger form or not, like I said...I hardly know anything about Chinese Kung Fu. But I did like what you wrote about TSD being so far removed so far from its Chinese source, that things do not seem as they should because of that....

 

[glad2bhere]

Dear Folks:

Reading Esherick on the origins of the Boxer Rebellion its pretty plain that most of the training generally ascribed to CMA proceeds from agencies such as the White Lotus Society and the Hong Societies who sought to provide support and protection to the society in the absence of sound policies by the Chinese government. This is particularly true in the 1800-s of the Ching dynasty with such anger and resentment towards the Manchu government and love/hate relationships towards the impositions of foreign powers.

The practice of Internal Power develope went in hand with vegetarianism, and ancestor worship. It was not until such societies began to share their influence with MA practitioners that such practices as "iron shirt" and "armor of the Golden Bell" became popular.

You also may want to consider that the relationship between aged hierarchies built on relationships between students and a teacher and steeped in such practices as salt smuggling, banditry, kidnapping and extortion had much more to do with the development of Wu-shu and the suspression of old Chuan Fa traditions.

Getting back to the Internal training, most of what is practiced is related through such modern renditions as the "Silk Weaving Exercises" to the historic practices ascribed to Bodhidarma ("the marrow washing" exercises").
There is also a case that can be made for the CLASSICS OF INTERNAL MEDICINE, written in the period between the 3rd and 1st Cen. BCE that QI GONG was advocated range of motion style training even befor Bodhidarma came along.

Personally I would like to see a revival of these older forms and an end to the variance of such practices across various arts. In Yon Mu Kwan Hapkido we practice 5 types of "dynamic breathing" ("dan jon breathing") in which the movements are done under isotonic stress while retaining the breath and pressing it down on the diaphram. Different Hapkido traditions use different movements in different ways but I am finding that they all seem to approximate the original Chinese material. The Goju-ryu Karate practice Ibuki breathing in which isotonic stress is also used but the breath is exhaled as the movement is done. (They also practice "Inoki" breathing in which, again isotonic stress is use but while inhaling. Yuck.).

With all of the interest in QI Gong now a days I bet you couldn't swing a stick in a bookstore without hitting a book, translation, or reprint on the subject. FWIW.

Best Wishes,

Bruce

 

[dosandojang]

Just a bit about Kanazawa...
One of the worlds most renowned and respected traditional karate masters alive, Kanazawa Kancho is the only karateka ever to have won the notorious 'All Japan Karate Championships' an incredible three times in a row, on one occasion winning the finals whilst nursing a broken wrist from an earlier event. In recent years, his eldest son, Nobuaki, has preserved the family reputation by winning the current All Japan Championships.

Taking up karate whilst at University (following several years of Judo training), the young Kanazawa became the protege' of the late headmaster of the Shotokan style, Matsatoshi Nakayama (10th Dan) and is one of the few remaining karateka privileged to have studied under Master Gichin Funakoshi (the small Okinawin schoolteacher who brought 'kara-te' to mainland Japan from Okinawa and founder of the Shotokan style).

In addition to Kanazawa Kancho’s mastery of karate-do and expertise with various traditional weaponry, he also has a very extensive knowledge of Chinese art of Tai-Chi, having studied it to its conclusion under Professor Wong for more than thirty years.

Currently, Kanazawa Kancho is both Chairman and World Chief Instructor of the worlds largest Shotokan Karate organisation, the


Shotokan Karate-do International Federation,

with in excess of two and a half million members worldwide, in one hundred and three countries (at the last count) and is currently the only living Shotokan Master to hold the grade of 10th Dan.

Although having such a formidable pedigree and being accorded legendary status, Kanazawa Kancho is also extremely charismatic but easily approachable Being a natural teacher and communicator, he chooses to spend individual time with as many of his students as is possible. Demand for his services, worldwide, are on the increase, his schedule is extremely intense and we are most fortunate and honoured to have this Shotokan Legend, the supreme Shotokan Master, include us on his itinerary and accept us as his students for the last twenty years.

Shotokan Karate-do International Federation

 

[dosandojang]

Awesome Post Bruce, See You On The Dojang Digest!!!!!!!!!

 

[Kodanjaclay]

I did not say Kyuk Pa was healthy. Not all hard style even engage in Kyuk Pa, or in Karate, Tameshiwara. Kyuk Pa is decidely unhealthy. In fact, Iron Palm is supposed to be very good for the hands, and when I was discussing my Iron Palm training with Master Lim while he was here, he gave me some words of caution about it. Of course things like Cinnabar Palm should definitely be avoided.

 

[Kodanjaclay]

Steve,

I was thinking about what you said about Master So. I'm sure he would agree in that instead of simply repeating what he has said, study it and train. All things said, are said in a particular context, just as all teachings are within a specific confine. This is necessary to propagate our art. We digest small bites and master them. What I learned as a white belt still holds true, but these days has a different meaning for me, than it did then. As our understading changes, we are able to grow more.

I hope I'm explaining this well. I fear that I am causing more confusion.

 

[dosandojang]

No, I understand you just fine. I don't just repeat what he says though, I DO train in both hard and soft styles. And the Kyukpa or Tameshiwara, well, I believe it is in MOST hard styles of Karate, that is why I mentioned it. That was just an example of the destructive nature of the hard core external training that GM So is talking about. Take Choi Kwang Do for example. GM Choi created that, because he destroyed his body from doing ITF style TKD most of his life. He attributed all of his injuries to the lock out movements, and damaging Kyukpa training, etc. in TKD. There can be such a thing as taking hard style Martial Arts too far. As you yourself said, TOO much of Yin or Yang (or Um and Yang) messes up the balance....Peace.....

 

[dosandojang]

You guys practice Iron Shirt? We've done some of the basic breathing that goes into that, but nothing more. My Tai Chi instructor told us that it takes 10 years off your life. The dynamic energy involved hastens the degredation of the entire system. I'm not sure what that means...perhaps its kind of like burning the candle at both ends. Your body takes a beating on the outside and on the inside the energy burning bright and hot to counter it.

Thoughts...-

upnorthkyosa

Frank, Ironshirt is taking 10 whole years off of your life????

 

[dosandojang]

Remember, that if one goes to far to either Um or Yang, the opposite will be found.
-Master Clay

 

[Kodanjaclay]

I doubt it very seriously. That is why they recommend using the pulsing breathing because the other is typically performed too hard. Its difficult to teach someone how to do it right, without over doing it. Considering the age of some of the practitioners, I would find it unlikely about shortning a life expectancy.

 

[Makalakumu]

The assertion that the physical techniques of iron shirt breathing takes years off your life is only part of the equation. The breathing itself is probably good, but the physical training that goes with the breathing...in my hometown we have a sensei who practices iron shirt and then breaks copius amounts of wood and brick over his body while laying on beds of nails. He says this is done as a measure of progress in the art Iron Shirt/Iron Body. I can't imagine that that is good for the body. Also, there is the internal function of chi in the body. Chi flows at a rate that ebbs and flows based on the diurnal cycle. If we can talk about amounts of chi...iron shirt breathing increases the flow rate. I believe this accellerates aging according to TCM.

Jumping back

Moo Pal Dan Kun are the breathing exercises taught to me by my instructor. He learned them directly from Subumnim Lawrence Sieberlich (8th dan) who learned them directly from Kwanjangnim Hwang Kee. I believe the difference in opinion on this is political. The Kwanjangnim's decision to form the SBD federation was because there were so many differences of opinion from what he had originally set out as TSD. I would love to see what you are practicing and compare it to what we do.

upnorthkyosa

 

[Kodanjaclay]

Iron shirt is not a martial form of chi qung. I'm sure that it could be used for such, but that is not its primary purpose.

The differences in opinion on Pal Dan Kum is not political. It is the one of the first sets that a beginner is taught in CMA. Pal Dan Kum actually has three components to complete the whole sequence and I believe the MDK only teaches two formally, though I have had Koreans who worked with the third. It is composed of a set of standing exercises, sitting exercises and lying down. Remember, this set came from Marshall Yeuh Fei so I am unsure how you can say that is political? Perhaps a tad more information to better understand your point of view?

That being said, it does not matter who you learned it from unless it was a direct lineage holder. I'm not sure, even amone Eagle Claw stylists that such a person can be found (though I would love to find one). I know that historically my sifu claims him as founder as does that of the Lau family, but I don't know if that one will ever be proven or disproven.

Keep in mind, Hwang Kee did not found TSD. He founded the Moo Duk Kwan. Chung Do Kwan opened in 44 and was already using the name TSD.

 

[glad2bhere]

Dear Dosandochang:

".....You guys practice Iron Shirt? We've done some of the basic breathing that goes into that, but nothing more. My Tai Chi instructor told us that it takes 10 years off your life...."

You are probably already aware of this but I would mention that you not discount the individuals' ability to self-correct. By this I mean that the body has a tendency to right itself when stressed too far in a particular direction. Many folks in the scientific community, for instance, have come to respect the well-known event of sleep/dreaming as a time when the person re-centers from the stresses of the previous day. I support Chi Gong practice but get concerned when folks begin to view it as an activity of control rather than one of facilitation. Our bodies heal just fine when left to themselves, though some practices seem to encourage while others seem to retard the process. FWIW.

Best Wishes,

Bruce

 

[dosandojang]

Thanks Bruce, but I just cut and pasted that from the original author in this thread, as a way to reintroduce the question to Master Clay (since he did not address it the first time it was written) I wanted to see his answer, regarding Iron Shirt taking 10 years off of his or anyone's life who practices it. Hope this makes sense...Peace....