Interesting thoughts on lineage

[Tony Dismukes]

What is a lineage? Rethinking our (Dangerous) Relationship with History

Mr. Rudkins is specifically discussing the concept of linage in Chinese Martial arts, but the questions are interesting for martial arts of all nationalities.

I have some thoughts of my own on the subject, but probably won't have time to type them up until later this weekend.

What do other folks think?

 

[Xue Sheng]

Lineage has its uses, but having a lineage does not mean you are good at the style you are doing.

As far as historically, I am fairly certain my Yang taijiquan lineage goes back to Chen Changxing and the Chen family, but before that I don't think anyone knows, no matter how many people point to Zhang Sanfeng.

Xingyiquan, well I am not in a lineage, but you can only historically go back to the Dai family, beyond that, things get sketchy.

Just about every traditional CMA gets to a point where no one can say for sure, and that is for multiple reasons.

 

[geezer]

...having a lineage does not mean you are good at the style you are doing.

Amen to that.

I study Yip Man lineage Ving Tsun. My teacher studied under Yip Man's first Hong Kong student, and later learned directly from Grandmaster Yip before his death. A good lineage, yet I never rose above mediocrity. I simply didn't have the necessary ability and dedication I suppose.

My Escrima instructor was Rene Latosa. World class. But again I was not one of his more gifted students. GM Rene himself used to say, it doesn't matter who you learned from, it's what you can do.

On the other hand, I consider myself a decent communicator and teacher. I've taught people who have gone on to become much better than I. Knowing that our lineage is legit may have been of some help to them in their journeys.

As for myself... I enjoy what I do. A man doesn't have to be major league material to enjoy baseball or play the PGA tour to love golf. Same goes for the martial arts.

 

[Danny T]

Lineage is important... to those who it is important to however, lineage doesn't mean the individual is excellent because of the lineage.

 

[geezer]

What is a lineage? Rethinking our (Dangerous) Relationship with History

Mr. Rudkins is specifically discussing the concept of linage in Chinese Martial arts, but the questions are interesting for martial arts of all nationalities.

I have some thoughts of my own on the subject, but probably won't have time to type them up until later this weekend.

What do other folks think?

OK ..... I just got time to actually read Ben Judkin's article in Kung Fu Tea. OK, I admit I just skimmed some sections. Regardless, Judkins posts some interesting stuff. But he couches it in the ponderous and dry language of academia. Reading it reminded me of why I turned away from my undergraduate major of Social Anthropology and Linguistics and when on to pursue an MFA in Sculpture. It's a lot more fun trying to create than analyze. It's also a lot more fun practicing the martial arts than dissecting them in a blog. Too bad I never learned how to make a decent living during all those years at school. Ended up teaching high school , in a state that spends less per student on education than just about any other place in the nation.

That said, Judkins makes some good points regarding the role of lineage in the Chinese martial arts community. As an instructor, I'm one of the minority he identifies that can recite my lineage back to it's mythic founder. I'm also one of the even smaller group that's aware of the fact that prior to the mid-19th Century our lineage is pure folklore. But it's instructive folklore, telling a story that functions like an origin myth or sacred history. It gives us a sense of identity, and defines the character of our particular art.

The downside, as the other researcher, Bowman points out, is the destructive clannishness fostered by true believers in these lineage stories. I've seen it taken to the point of being positively cultish, paving the way for all kinds of fraud, outlandish claims, and the general degradation of the art itself. Eventually students begin to believe that who you studied under is all-important and somehow confers almost magical ability. Again, time to tune into reality. Watch a boxing or MMA match and realize it's not about style or lineage, but as I said before, it's what you can do that matters!

 

[Danny T]

When linage (and particular 'styles' within the linage) become more important than actual skill and abilities it destroys. The gene pool of those with in the art becomes weaker and the system becomes seen as non effective.

 

[Xue Sheng]

What lineage is very good for is exposing a charlatan who is generally using the claimed lineage for monetary gain.

Came across one claiming a lineage to a Chen family member. The person making the claim was non-Chinese and the Chen family member never taught anyone but Chinese people.

Another claimed to be the grandson of Yang Shouhou and claimed to have trained with his grandfather. However his "alleged" grandfather died before he was born and all of his other claims were then false. He shared the same family name, but he was not part of the Yang (Taiji) family. He was later listed on the Yang family site as being a liar.

Another claim to being a student of the Chen family to sell DVDs was also proven false when a member of the Chen family showed up at this persons door and told him to stop making such claims.

Had another claim to be a student of my Shigong, who was not and yet another claimed to be a student of my shifu and they were not

This is what lineage can be good for.

 

[geezer]

What lineage is very good for is exposing a charlatan who is generally using the claimed lineage for monetary gain.

This is what lineage can be good for.

On one hand I agree totally. On the other hand, if lineage wasn't seen as so important, then there would me no point in making false claims of lineage.

 

[Buka]

Google says -

lin·e·age
ˈlinēij/
noun
noun: lineage; plural noun: lineages

1. 1.
   lineal descent from an ancestor; ancestry or pedigree.
   synonyms: ancestry, family, parentage, birth, descent, line, extraction, derivation, genealogy, roots, origin, background, heritage, dual heritage;More
   stock, bloodline, breeding, pedigree
   "he is tracing his paternal lineage"
   • Anthropology
     a social group tracing its descent from a single ancestor.
2. 2.
   Biology
   a sequence of species each of which is considered to have evolved from its predecessor.
   "the chimpanzee and gorilla lineages"

So, for me, I like the "Biology" reference for my Martial Art, American Karate.

As for everyone else, that's their business, and their Art. And their right.

 

[geezer]

Google says -

lin·e·age
ˈlinēij/
noun
noun: lineage; plural noun: lineages

1. 1.
   lineal descent from an ancestor; ancestry or pedigree.
   synonyms: ancestry, family, parentage, birth, descent, line, extraction, derivation, genealogy, roots, origin, background, heritage, dual heritage;More
   stock, bloodline, breeding, pedigree
   "he is tracing his paternal lineage"
   • Anthropology
     a social group tracing its descent from a single ancestor.
2. 2.
   Biology
   a sequence of species each of which is considered to have evolved from its predecessor.
   "the chimpanzee and gorilla lineages"

So, for me, I like the "Biology" reference for my Martial Art, American Karate.

As for everyone else, that's their business, and their Art. And their right.

The biological/evolutionary model vs. the Biblical creation model, with all those begats:

Northern Shaolin Kung-fu begat Southern Shaolin Kung-fu, Southern Shaolin begat the five elders' kung-fu, eldest of whom, Ng Mui begat Yim Wing Chun's kung fu, who begat Leung Bok Chau's kung fu, which begat Leung Lan Kwai's who begat Wong Wah Bo's and Leung Yee Tai's kung fu, which begat Leung Jan's, then Chan Wah Shun and Leung Bik, then Yip Man, then my Chinese Sifu, then me? What does any of that really mean???

Being a modern person who believes in evolution, I'm with you Buka. I learned from this lineage, and that, did a little wrestling, some escrima which has genetic roots in both native Filipino, Indonesian, Malayan and Chinese arts, but also European swordsmanship. Makes far more sense to track the "Martial Arts DNA" than the folk history IMO.

 

[JowGaWolf]

lineage is important because it gives you a way to track the quality of what is being taught. I could come from a good teacher but I may not be a good teacher this would mean that it's better to go to another teacher under the same lineage instead of me. In the case of Jow Ga you can pretty much find out who are self declared sifu's vs a sifu that became a sifu through traditional methods and approval from the associations that keep the "pureness" of Jow Ga. Other styles are sometimes taught but the students are made aware of what is Jow Ga and what isn't Jow Ga.

 

[Danny T]

Lineage is important because it gives you something to advertise.
Lineage isn't about what is taught being good it is about what is taught should be good.
Not all students who have come from a particular instructor are good. I've has students who after 2 years are excellent while others who after 10 years are just ok. Is it my instruction, my instructor's instruction, or his instructor's who failed. The lineage means little. Like Geezer, there are many aspects of wing chun I have learned not through my instructor but by my practicing on my own and gain even greater insight through the training of other systems that have nothing to do with wing chun much less my instructor or his lineage.

 

[Xue Sheng]

Something I think we might be missing here as it applies to lineage. Just because you trained with a teacher does not mean you are in the lineage or for that matter there is no reason for that teacher to consider you his or her student.

I have trained with Chen Zhenglei, but I am by no means his student or in any lineage from him. I have trained with Wang Rengang and I am by no means his student or a yiquan person. I have trained with multiple Xingyiquan people and I am not in any xingyiquan lineage. The only lineage I am in is with my Yang sifu. However I was told by both Wing Chun people that I was in their lineage, however I did not train that long so I do not consider myself part of any Wing Chun lineage

 

[JowGaWolf]

You have 2 students who are excellent. Provided that you are teaching quality techniques and you have quality instruction, those 2 students will be a reflection of your teachings and a reflection of their dedication. Even if your other students fall short, people will know that you understand what you teaching and techniques are good for self-defense. Now if your students can only become a Sifu through your approval then I will feel comfortable with learning from a student that you give the title of Sifu who represents someone who has enough knowledge, skill, and ability to teach and pass the skills and knowledge to the next generation.

Now if one of your students decides to declare himself as a Sifu on his own then I can go back to you and ask you if this person made Sifu under you or if they made Sifu under someone else. If the student claims you as part of the lineage but wasn't made sifu by you then I'm not going to learn from him.

If you are a teacher who just appoints anyone to be a Sifu then I'm not going to learn under any students that you make Sifu.

In Jow Ga the appointed Sifu's know each other not only in the U.S. but overseas. If I wanted to learn Jow Ga from an instructor then I'll be able to check if that person was appointed a Sifu or if they are teaching others without the title of Sifu. Teaching kung fu is like being a school teacher. A teach can be the smartest one in the school, but if they suck at teaching then no one learns. If no one learns the the art is at risk of dying in reference to the purpose of that art.

The aspects of Wing Chun that you learn on your own becomes part of your lineage. So now Wing Chun is built upon the knowledge of your instructor and your knowledge. In Jow Ga we have Sifu's that are better in certain areas than others and that is reflected in what students learn. If one Jow Ga Sifu has limited knowledge in one area, for example spears, then the other Sifu who has a vast knowledge about spears is contacted. Because of this it's not uncommon for our Sifus to have trained under other Sifus.

There are people who use lineage as a marketing tactic, but those are easy to pick out because they are always name dropping about who they study under. I understand Jow Ga may be the exception to this rule. I think I've only mentioned the founder of Jow Ga once and it wasn't by name. I guess Jow Ga sees it in the same light as a college degree, where you get the degree from hold weight in what the professional was exposed to in learning the profession.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Something I think we might be missing here as it applies to lineage. Just because you trained with a teacher does not mean you are in the lineage or for that matter there is no reason for that teacher to consider you his or her student.

I think the lineage has been taken advantage of for marketing purposes for so long that it no longer holds significance to some schools. It has lost it's value for some, while it retains importance for others who keep true to it. Like you say not everyone is part of the lineage. The only way I can be come part of the lineage is if I become Sifu and the only way that can happen is if a Sifu represents me and gets approval for me to be tested as a Sifu in front of other Sifus. From what I understand I'll have to wait another 15 years before that opportunity comes up and that's only if I'm even performing at that level.

 

[geezer]

Something I think we might be missing here as it applies to lineage. Just because you trained with a teacher does not mean you are in the lineage or for that matter there is no reason for that teacher to consider you his or her student.

I have trained with Chen Zhenglei, but I am by no means his student or in any lineage from him. I have trained with Wang Rengang and I am by no means his student or a yiquan person. I have trained with multiple Xingyiquan people and I am not in any xingyiquan lineage. The only lineage I am in is with my Yang sifu. However I was told by both Wing Chun people that I was in their lineage, however I did not train that long so I do not consider myself part of any Wing Chun lineage

Yeah, I don't even know if I would be considered part of my old sifu's lineage any more. Probably not. I was his to-dai for many years, did the whole bai-si ceremony and he personally declared me a sifu, but years later I drifted away and eventually began training with my si-dai with (whom Sifu had a big falling out). So all the top guys still following Sifu won't even speak to me any more. But I learned what I learned. They can't take that away. Don't know how that affects my lineage though.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Yeah, I don't even know if I would be considered part of my old sifu's lineage any more. Probably not. I was his to-dai for many years, did the whole bai-si ceremony and he personally declared me a sifu, but years later I drifted away and eventually began training with my si-dai with (whom Sifu had a big falling out). So all the top guys still following Sifu won't even speak to me any more. But I learned what I learned. They can't take that away. Don't know how that affects my lineage though.

You would still be in the lineage because you were formally declared a sifu. Even if you are training under another Sifu you are still a Sifu. Your lineage should show that you have your old sifu and your new sifu as your teachers. Those are the two teachers from who you are learning from.

 

[kuniggety]

I just see lineage as a type of credentialing. If a person has been given "sifu" status in a lineage, I see it like a college accredition. Is every school in that accredition body the same? No, but there has been a level of vetting by the other schools and they're putting their names behind them that they're up to a certain level. If I go to any BJJ school that is run by a BJJ black belt, I can rest assured that they know what the hell they're doing because I know the BJJ world while growing is still a relatively small world and people will know who you are if you're a BB. The same goes for when I studied bak sil lum. There are a few big names in the system, particularly those who exported it to the West, and if anyone is made a "sifu" by then then they are respected by the rest of the community. I'd go into taiji or Northern mantis but there's quite frankly way too much politics.

 

[hoshin1600]

one question i always put forth is , like today's students some are good and some are not so good. what if a historical figure in your linage was on the not so good side or down right horrible? does that diminish or tarnish that styles lineage? in Uechi ryu karate /aka Pangainoon southern fukien style...we have heard that our linage to China was from a man named Shu shi wa (in Okinawan dialect) what if he was a fake or a less than average martial artist? what meaning or significance would that have on today's martial artists?

 

[Xue Sheng]

one question i always put forth is , like today's students some are good and some are not so good. what if a historical figure in your linage was on the not so good side or down right horrible? does that diminish or tarnish that styles lineage? in Uechi ryu karate /aka Pangainoon southern fukien style...we have heard that our linage to China was from a man named Shu shi wa (in Okinawan dialect) what if he was a fake or a less than average martial artist? what meaning or significance would that have on today's martial artists?

In the old days in China and Japan, claiming a lineage, that you were not in, was a bit risky and generally lead to public humiliations or more likely challenges and beatings.