Insights into Kenpo and Crosstraining

[Seig]

Ladies and Gentlemen:
There has been a LOT of discussion both pro and con concerning this topic. Some really want to discuss it and others want to avoid it. What we, the moderation team, are asking is that you keep the discussion about this topic restricted to this thread. We realize that on occasion that this will surface in other threads. Please make an effort to redirect all such discussions here.
Thank you,
Michael Seigel
MT Moderator

 

[MJS]

Again, yes, there has been much discussion about this topic. IMO, and I"m only speaking for myself, I think that it is something that is often overlooked. I realize that there are many traditional people, who prefer to stick with just the Kenpo, and nothing else. This of course is fine. I have never seen any of the other people on here that are in favor of crosstraining, telling anyone that it is something that they must do, that they suck if they dont, etc, and the list goes on. Those are things that people misread into what we are saying.

As I said on the other thread relating to grappling, Kenpo does focus on punching, kicking, and tech. against many different attacks. Its pretty much an art that is a "Jack of all trades!" There are other arts however, such as boxing, which focuses soley on punching. Judo which focuses on throwing and grappling. There are Filipino arts, such as Sayoc Kali, that focuses alot on blade work. I would think that if you wanted to learn how to better counter these people, it would be wise to know how they fight. Sure, you can say that Kenpo does have knife disarms, but Kenpo does not focus primarily on the blade, while Sayoc does.

Again, I have never said that this is something that anybody must do, but if you can take something from another art, add it to your Kenpo, and make yourself that much better, is that something not worth doing?? Some of us go to seminars, put on by Masters of what ever art you might be taking. Why do we go to the seminar?? Dont you go to learn from the Master, learn new ways to improve your tech.? Ask questions on how to make something work better? The idea of crosstraining is no different.

Mike

 

[MartialArtsGuy]

I have seen this topic come up alot lately, so I figure instead of just giving my opinion, I'd share some experiences from my trainging to.

Where I train American Kenpo is the main system studied. However my teacher has had alot of training from different sources.

We do alot of kickboxing, Arnis(sticks & knives), and because of his job, we are exposed to restraining techniques and general grappling. He is also into fire arms so we get our fair share of that to.

It is my opinion that kenpo has principles of motion that can apply to every range. However I think of the curriculum as a guide to help teach principles of motion. I dont consider American Kenpo to be restricted to the confines of that curriculum. I think of it as an outlook/guide to training (almost like jkd) but that gives you training wheels (structured curriculum) to get you started and keep you busy for a long time.

At our school the kickboxing ads to our striking. The arnis takes what we do with our knives and sticks and not only gives us a slightly different take on it but also expands what is in the curriculum. The restraining techniques and grappling harmonize very nicely with kenpo principles. To me it's not about filling holes. If you take the curriculum literaly well than yes there are holes but I dont think it was intended to be that way. I think it's a guide to teach you about motion and give you some tools. Does it give you all the tools? No, But it does give you a HUGE amount of motion principles that you can apply to othe knife arts, stick arts, grappling arts etc that may have some of the physical tools not inluded in kenpo.

Im actually am happy kenpo is the way it is. Ed Parker was a genius. Can you imagine how many techniques, forms, sets, drills, etc... we would have to memorize to have an extensive curriculum in kickboxing/Sayoc Kali/BJJ/Judo/Firearms training/tai chi/etc.........It was his way of giving us a well rounded system without a huge burden. We learn about motion,we learn how it CAN apply in some situations to get us started, it's up to us to see how it applies to a large number of circumstances. If we can't, than we have to go to grappling teachers or knife people. It's all in the application baby. Besides, many martial arts share the same principles of motion. They have to. The anatomy of a Kravmaga guy is no different than a Wing Chun guy.

Just to give one example. Let's look at "leverage". I hope I spelled it right. Savate has the principle of leverage, BJJ does, Wing Chun does, boxing does, wrestling does, Kali does. The key is that each of these arts are specialists on how to use leverage in theie specialty field. Some may teach us about it while standing but far, standing but close, on the ground, with weapons. The intricate dos and dont's.

I think crosstraining is important if you dont have an instructor who has knowlege of how principles of motion apply in all ranges. I have been going on for some time now so I'm done.

If you don't agree with me a fight to the death can be arranged. :asian:

 

[Old Fat Kenpoka]

But, um, we've talked about it so much, um, I'm not sure I have anything left to say.

Actually I do have something to say about why this is an important thread.

I was one of the instigators of the cross-training discussion on MartialTalk.

I started Kenpo back in 1973. I trained in an orphan offshoot of Parker/Tracy. The school I trained at closed at the end of 1994. Since then, I've trained in 3 other Kenpo Dojos. One doing the same system I studied. One doing a Cerio-Kempo offshoot. And briefly at a very prestigious EPAK school. I stopped training in 2000 to start my family. Late last year, I decided I wanted to start up again.

I researched several arts. I researched developments in Martial arts training over the last 10 years. I visited about 10 schools.

You know what I concluded?

1) Kenpo is a "traditional" martial art taught in much the same way as Aiki-jujitsu, Aikido, Japanese Karate, and Tae Kwon Do. There were other arts that used a completely different approach: Boxing, kick-boxing, Muay Thai, San Shou, Judo, Wrestling, and Brazilian Jiu Jitsu.

2) Kenpo is a "stand-up" striking style without effective ground defense.

3) Kenpo has more politics than ANY other style. More associations, more 10th degrees, more disagreements over curriculum...

4) Kenpo has more mumbo-jumbo than just about any other style including "Black Dot/White Dot", "Gaseous phase of motion", "Belt knot goes to the side until..." "The salutation must be done exactly like this..." "Memorize the pledges for every belt", "Marriage of Gravity" etc., etc., etc., etc., etc...Kenpoists spend a lot of time talking about concepts; maybe too much time.

5) Kenpoists worship and revere Mr. Parker more than any other martial art reveres their founder (except for maybe Aikido).

6) Kenpo is one of the most extreme examples of a style with many "deadly and dangerous" techniques that can never be practiced against a resisting opponent.

7) There are a lot of really husky Kenpo seniors. Maybe Kenpo isn't the most rigorous workout--especially if you really understand it and are really efficient.

With all of these conclusions, I decided it was time to try something completely new and different. I'd done some Shotokan and Aiki-jujitsu, and a little Escrima. I had never done any serious grappling. I signed up for Brazilian Jiu Jitsu. What an eye opener!

I felt the need to shout out loud "THERE IS ANOTHER WAY" "YOU'VE GOT TO TRY THIS" "KENPOISTS: GET OFF YOUR HIGH-HORSES! YOU'RE TRAINING DOES NOT MAKE YOU INVULNERABLE." I rudely shouted this on MartialTalk and the KenpoNet.

And here we are.

Kenpoists do need to cross-train. Just like Americans need to travel abroad. You've got to see that there are other ways and that the Kenpo way is not the only way. You've got to see that there are actually a few aspects of Kenpo that are really pretty silly. There are aspects of other arts (including BJJ) that are pretty silly too. There are also techniques and approaches that are NOT in Kenpo. You will never realize this unless you cross-train.

I also worry that by segregating this topic to this thread that the Kenpo-bigots who really need the cross-training message the most won't ever see it.

 

[kkbb]

Originally posted by Old Fat Kenpoka
But, um, we've talked about it so much, um, I'm not sure I have anything left to say.

Actually I do have something to say about why this is an important thread.

I was one of the instigators of the cross-training discussion on MartialTalk.

I started Kenpo back in 1973. I trained in an orphan offshoot of Parker/Tracy. The school I trained at closed at the end of 1994. Since then, I've trained in 3 other Kenpo Dojos. One doing the same system I studied. One doing a Cerio-Kempo offshoot. And briefly at a very prestigious EPAK school. I stopped training in 2000 to start my family. Late last year, I decided I wanted to start up again.

I researched several arts. I researched developments in Martial arts training over the last 10 years. I visited about 10 schools.

You know what I concluded?

1) Kenpo is a "traditional" martial art taught in much the same way as Aiki-jujitsu, Aikido, Japanese Karate, and Tae Kwon Do. There were other arts that used a completely different approach: Boxing, kick-boxing, Muay Thai, San Shou, Judo, Wrestling, and Brazilian Jiu Jitsu.

2) Kenpo is a "stand-up" striking style without effective ground defense.

3) Kenpo has more politics than ANY other style. More associations, more 10th degrees, more disagreements over curriculum...

4) Kenpo has more mumbo-jumbo than just about any other style including "Black Dot/White Dot", "Gaseous phase of motion", "Belt knot goes to the side until..." "The salutation must be done exactly like this..." "Memorize the pledges for every belt", "Marriage of Gravity" etc., etc., etc., etc., etc...Kenpoists spend a lot of time talking about concepts; maybe too much time.

5) Kenpoists worship and revere Mr. Parker more than any other martial art reveres their founder (except for maybe Aikido).

6) Kenpo is one of the most extreme examples of a style with many "deadly and dangerous" techniques that can never be practiced against a resisting opponent.

7) There are a lot of really husky Kenpo seniors. Maybe Kenpo isn't the most rigorous workout--especially if you really understand it and are really efficient.

With all of these conclusions, I decided it was time to try something completely new and different. I'd done some Shotokan and Aiki-jujitsu, and a little Escrima. I had never done any serious grappling. I signed up for Brazilian Jiu Jitsu. What an eye opener!

I felt the need to shout out loud "THERE IS ANOTHER WAY" "YOU'VE GOT TO TRY THIS" "KENPOISTS: GET OFF YOUR HIGH-HORSES! YOU'RE TRAINING DOES NOT MAKE YOU INVULNERABLE." I rudely shouted this on MartialTalk and the KenpoNet.

And here we are.

Kenpoists do need to cross-train. Just like Americans need to travel abroad. You've got to see that there are other ways and that the Kenpo way is not the only way. You've got to see that there are actually a few aspects of Kenpo that are really pretty silly. There are aspects of other arts (including BJJ) that are pretty silly too. There are also techniques and approaches that are NOT in Kenpo. You will never realize this unless you cross-train.

I also worry that by segregating this topic to this thread that the Kenpo-bigots who really need the cross-training message the most won't ever see it.

I believe what your trying to say is.... train or cross train... It doesn't matter...just think outside the box!

 

[Old Fat Kenpoka]

Thanks for boiling my ramble down to a single sentence. The other thing I am trying to say is that we shouldn't take ourselves too seriously!

 

[tarabos]

does anyone think that it would be a good idea to make these "insights" threads into sticky threads? i know they are here to serve the purpose of eliminating new threads about the same topic, but i would say that these threads are going to get lost just like all of the others. if that does happen, then yet another thread on this topic will be created and more complaining will ensue.

i'm not saying that we should go crazy with the sticky threads around here, but i do feel that these threads will not serve the purpose they are meant to if they get shoved down the list.

 

[MJS]

OFK--- Excellent post!! I think that you pretty much said it all!

Mike

 

[Michael Billings]

Just start a poll, those always seem to keep coming up. Sticky Thread = Ichey thread.

I understand where you are coming from OFK, but some of us grapple just enough to know what it is about. Or we did it in the 70's and 80's ... (and even some BJJ in the 90's.) We are choosing what we want to do, not out of ignorance or arrogance ... but because we like it. Whether the logical structure, "deadly" techniques , or ease of application as we get older and more proficient.

3) Kenpo has more politics than ANY other style. More associations, more 10th degrees, more disagreements over curriculum...

4) Kenpo has more mumbo-jumbo than just about any other style including "Black Dot/White Dot", "Gaseous phase of motion", "Belt knot goes to the side until..." "The salutation must be done exactly like this..." "Memorize the pledges for every belt", "Marriage of Gravity" etc., etc., etc., etc., etc...Kenpoists spend a lot of time talking about concepts; maybe too much time.

5) Kenpoists worship and revere Mr. Parker more than any other martial art reveres their founder (except for maybe Aikido).

But other's say the same thing of their Arts - Politics, inflated Ranks, or curriculuum.

Now I do have a problem with the "Worship and revere" statement. Those of us who knew him, as you did (?), know he was a genius, but not a person to worship or revere ... boy would he have something to say about that ... and it would be loud!!

Concepts and theories in addition to the actual nomenclature are what set American Kenpo apart. I did not have those in my 7 years of Chinese Kenpo, but have found them invaluable in the information that was conveyed to me, and by me to my students. Now I agree that maybe it is more a case of "Too Much, Too Soon", and the beginner or outsider is often overwhelmed.

I just had to respond, just so yall would not feel too lonely over here.

-MB

 

[Old Fat Kenpoka]

Mike: Thanks for agreeing with me. Looks like we've been given our own church to preach in.

 

[Old Fat Kenpoka]

Michael: Thanks!

I met Mr. Parker at a couple of seminars and at the Internationals, but his question when he saw people from my (Rod Martins') school(s) was usually "who are those guys?". So I don't claim to have known him. I am sure he never knew me by name. I do believe that many take his word as gospel and try to make Kenpo decisions based on "what would Mr. Parker have done". To me, that is a level of reverence well beyond what I see Judokas giving to Kano, or Shotokaners giving to Funakoshi, or even JKD'ers giving to Bruce Lee.

The terminology in Kenpo, in my not-so-humble opinion, IS way over the top. Some of it is pretty good: Dimensional zone theory, checking, many others. Some of it is just plain unecessary gobbledegook like Black Dot/White Dot. The terminology does set Kenpo apart, but there are many Kenpo styles as well as Kajukenbo that are effective without the huge vocabulary list. Our school tried to simplify the terminology and focus our energies on strong basics and solid contact. Really makes me scratch my head to see the "Gaseous Phase of Motion" thread go on for 4 pages.

I am really glad that you and other Kenpoists have had introductions to grappling. This cross-training experience fills an important gap in Kenpo techniques and gives Kenpoists the ability to apply Kenpo principles in additional situations.

But grappling isn't the only cross-training issue. Training methodolgy is an important question as well. I do think that spending more time on "alive" training drills and less time on Kata and cooperative technique drills could go a long way toward making Kenpo even more effective. Many schools are moving this way, some are not.

I do appreciate MartialTalk's efforts to give us our own thread. I do like Tarrabos suggestion to make this a sticky thread--although I can't imagine the majority here wanting to see the cross-training thread at the top of the list every time they visit.

 

[twinkletoes]

OFK,

that was one of the best summations I've heard. It included the most important one: Kenpo is a TMA. I don't think enough kenpoka realize that. It has a set curriculum. It promotes tradition over innovation. It uses kata, and cooperative practice. It contains some totally impractical ideas. People who question the ideas are ridiculed by the seniors, instead of being shown why it should be so.

We have become more traditional than those who the kenpo originators sought to improve over. Kenpo WAS an innovation at the time. But so was Shotokan, TKD, etc. when they started.

~TT

 

[Old Fat Kenpoka]

TT: Thank you and yes. People forget that other "traditional" martial arts were developed in the 20th century. This includes ALL Karate styles, Aikido, and several others. Pictures of your founder don't have to be black & white in order for your art to be traditional!

 

[Fastmover]

You guys are killing me with these new......cough ......old threads!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[MJS]

I know---sounds like we are beating a dead horse, but like OFK said--this is a church that was given to us---The few, the proud---the crosstrainers!!!

Mike

 

[Seig]

Originally posted by tarabos
does anyone think that it would be a good idea to make these "insights" threads into sticky threads? i know they are here to serve the purpose of eliminating new threads about the same topic, but i would say that these threads are going to get lost just like all of the others. if that does happen, then yet another thread on this topic will be created and more complaining will ensue.

i'm not saying that we should go crazy with the sticky threads around here, but i do feel that these threads will not serve the purpose they are meant to if they get shoved down the list.

I'll propose it to the other admins/mods and see what they have to say. I think it is an idea with merit.

 

[Kenpomachine]

What I find most funny here is in the cooperative partner thing...

I have a question for you, crosstraining advocates. What do you really advocate, cross-training? Different teaching methods? Because they're two different things and you're constantly mixing it up when talking about cross-traing.

Cooperative partner :rofl:

 

[Kenpomachine]

What I find most funny here is in the cooperative partner thing...

I have a question for you, crosstraining advocates. What do you really advocate, cross-training? Different teaching methods? Because they're two different things and you're constantly mixing it up when talking about cross-traing.

Cooperative partner :roflmao:

 

[Old Fat Kenpoka]

Cross training is what made some of us aware of the benefits of training with fully-resisting partners. Crosstraining can include either or both different techniques and different training methods. I think we all benefit by learning new techniques and by learning new ways to practice and improve our current techniques. So the answer is...both!

And yes. It is funny. I'm pretty funny. I am at least as ridiculous as anyone else here. Probably more so. While I am very opinionated, I don't take myself too seriously and I am willing to laugh at my own inanity. Also, while I'm reasonably well informed about Martial Arts, I do have a lot more to learn, I'm not that proficient--given my time in the arts, and most people on the forum could probably beat me to a pulp.

 

[Kenpomachine]

See, we weren't talking the same language :rofl: :rofl:

I understand cross-training as training different systems at the same time. Not working with different training methods, which I believe is what most teachers use so as not to have boring classes.

And if you so want a fully resisting partner, ask nicely. If they continue "cooperating" hit harder