I'm tired of styles.

[Gerry Seymour]

no fast twitch is where the most size gains come from, what they have little interest in doing is developing there cns to facilitate fast movement

Interesting. I thought fast twitch didn't develop as much using slow movements.

 

[Martial D]

do they have slower hand speed?, if not they don't move slower

I would say their hand speed is much slower, yes. I take it you don't watch a lot of combat sports? The speed difference between say, Zab Judah and Lenox Lewis is significant to say the least.

 

[Martial D]

My guess would be endurance is a large factor. They can't afford to burn all that energy early and often. Of course, for some they are also not as fast. Their mass allows them to deliver more power, to make up for less speed of body movement. I'm not sure their arms are slower, though - might be, but I don't know.

I am certainly not saying big guys don't hit as hard, on average. I know from experience that is false.

This is also the reason combat sports have weight divisions.

 

[drop bear]

"Someone" is too vague. When you fight a person using boxing techniques the question should be how do I use my techniques to beat "Steve" "Tom" "Jose" "Phillipe" ect ect's boxing techniques?

Since not everyone will apply them the same way.

You can break that down in to certain styles though. Infighter, out fighter, brawler. Etc.

Which will give you at least a game plan. Rather than trying to come up with a brand new method for every guy.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

Interesting. I thought fast twitch didn't develop as much using slow movements.

Wait for JR or someone else to reply. I'm pretty sure just about every time job has made a definitive claim like this on a topic, someone with more education on the subject has corrected him. If not every time, then at least enough to be weary.

 

[drop bear]

Interesting. I thought fast twitch didn't develop as much using slow movements.

Yeah sort of is the answer. Big muscle is fast twitch. Getting faster is more complicated.

 

[jobo]

Interesting. I thought fast twitch didn't develop as much using slow movements.

i think the fast twitch name mislead people.
you have three types of muscle fibre type one, slow twitch endurance, real endurance, like holding your head up all day, keeping your back,straight all day, walking/ running great distances, ,

and then were people get mixed up, two fast twitch fibres type a and type b, type a , which work off the aerobic system and have greater strengh than type one, but less endurance and type b which work of the anaerobic system and give greater strengh again but even less endurance.

the exercises used for body building, focus on the type 2 ( fast twitch a and b fibres, with different rep ranges working different fibres to a varrying amout, though its common for people to get,stuck in the 8 to 12 rep range and miss out on gains from the type 2a fibre , just as its common for people do a lot of body weight exercises like maists, to get stuck doing 30 or more push ups and not develop their type two b capacity

from an athletic point of view, a sprinter will start of using type 2b and finish the race using type 2 a where as a 800 meter runner with mostly use type 2a and save his type 2b for the sprint at the end. There is more cross over than that, but its in the ball park

 

[jobo]

i think the fast twitch name mislead people.
you have three types of muscle fibre type one, slow twitch endurance, real endurance, like holding your head up all day, keeping your back,straight all day, walking/ running great distances, ,

and then were people get mixed up, two fast twitch fibres type a and type b, type a , which work off the aerobic system and have greater strengh than type one, but less endurance and type b which work of the anaerobic system and give greater strengh again but even less endurance.

the exercises used for body building, focus on the type 2 ( fast twitch a and b fibres, with different rep ranges working different fibres to a varrying amout, though its common for people to get,stuck in the 8 to 12 rep range and miss out on gains from the type 2a fibre , just as its common for people do a lot of body weight exercises like maists, to get stuck doing 30 or more push ups and not develop their type two b capacity

from an athletic point of view, a sprinter will start of using type 2b and finish the race using type 2 a where as a 800 meter runner with mostly use type 2a and save his type 2b for the sprint at the end. There is more cross over than that, but its in the ball park

as a personal illustration of this, I've spent the last three months,smashing my anaerobic type two b fitness, to build up my power and strengh, which i have to a marked degree, however I've done no type 2b training and expected my endurance capacity to fall off, which it had again to some,degree, however when i returned to my mile run, which i expected to have,suffered tine,wise, i found that i could achieve much the same time, by sprinting for 300 metres and and walking one, as i could before using steady state cardio. The speed of my take off impressed me, I've not had that amount of,wiz for some decades,

 

[JR 137]

Wait for JR or someone else to reply. I'm pretty sure just about every time job has made a definitive claim like this on a topic, someone with more education on the subject has corrected him. If not every time, then at least enough to be weary.

There are a few different muscle fiber types - type 1 (slow twitch), type 2a and 2b. Some studies show type 2a can be turned into 2b and vice versa. Then there’s type 2x, which from what I understand is the type 2 fiber transitioning between 2a and 2b, but I could be off on that (it’s been a while and my memory isn’t what it used to be).

Which ones respond best to specific types of training? True experts agree that all the time. Research is kind of all over the map, as different researchers have found different things.

That tells me three things...
1. Everyone is built differently due to their own physiology/genetics
2. The difference between the different fibers isn’t a night and day difference
3. There’s no point in arguing it if the real experts can’t fully agree

Unless you’re a very high level competitor, such as an Olympic level runner, it’s not going to change much. If you need more speed, train faster and more explosive movements.

I think most of that stuff is due to the nervous system anyway. Your brain sending the correct signals and recruiting the correct fibers and developing new motor pathways is going to give you the most noticeable difference at our non-ultra elite level. How do you do that? Repetition. Furthermore, your body won’t “turn on” theses fibers without your brain telling them to. In a sense it’s like developing the ability to write; the more a kid practices their writing, the finer writing gets. Why? Their brain is being trained to better control their hand.

 

[JR 137]

As far as boxers’ handspeed goes, studies have shown there’s negligible difference in heavyweight and lightweight elite boxers’ handspeed. They may move their bodies faster such as through footwork and angling, but the actual hands themselves aren’t moving noticeably faster when they’re throwing full speed punches.

One such study saying it somewhere in there, and I’ve seen others essentially saying the same thing...
Biomechanics of the head for Olympic boxer punches to the face | British Journal of Sports Medicine

I think a lightweight boxer’s hands looking faster is more of an illusion and perhaps expectation bias in a sense than what actually is. Karate nd of like a Ferrari looks like it’s going faster than a Toyota Highlander if you’re not watching them side by side, when in all actuality they were both going 75 mph.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

There are a few different muscle fiber types - type 1 (slow twitch), type 2a and 2b. Some studies show type 2a can be turned into 2b and vice versa. Then there’s type 2x, which from what I understand is the type 2 fiber transitioning between 2a and 2b, but I could be off on that (it’s been a while and my memory isn’t what it used to be).

Which ones respond best to specific types of training? True experts agree that all the time. Research is kind of all over the map, as different researchers have found different things.

That tells me three things...
1. Everyone is built differently due to their own physiology/genetics
2. The difference between the different fibers isn’t a night and day difference
3. There’s no point in arguing it if the real experts can’t fully agree

Unless you’re a very high level competitor, such as an Olympic level runner, it’s not going to change much. If you need more speed, train faster and more explosive movements.

I think most of that stuff is due to the nervous system anyway. Your brain sending the correct signals and recruiting the correct fibers and developing new motor pathways is going to give you the most noticeable difference at our non-ultra elite level. How do you do that? Repetition. Furthermore, your body won’t “turn on” theses fibers without your brain telling them to. In a sense it’s like developing the ability to write; the more a kid practices their writing, the finer writing gets. Why? Their brain is being trained to better control their hand.

That would explain the results of visualization studies. Visualization obviously doesn't develop muscle, but the brain does activate in ways remarkably similar to the physical activity visualized.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

As far as boxers’ handspeed goes, studies have shown there’s negligible difference in heavyweight and lightweight elite boxers’ handspeed. They may move their bodies faster such as through footwork and angling, but the actual hands themselves aren’t moving noticeably faster when they’re throwing full speed punches.

One such study saying it somewhere in there, and I’ve seen others essentially saying the same thing...
Biomechanics of the head for Olympic boxer punches to the face | British Journal of Sports Medicine

I think a lightweight boxer’s hands looking faster is more of an illusion and perhaps expectation bias in a sense than what actually is. Karate nd of like a Ferrari looks like it’s going faster than a Toyota Highlander if you’re not watching them side by side, when in all actuality they were both going 75 mph.

Hey, JR, find the keyboard gnome that's eating some of your letters and smack him. I think I caught all of what you said in that.

 

[jobo]

As far as boxers’ handspeed goes, studies have shown there’s negligible difference in heavyweight and lightweight elite boxers’ handspeed. They may move their bodies faster such as through footwork and angling, but the actual hands themselves aren’t moving noticeably faster when they’re throwing full speed punches.

One such study saying it somewhere in there, and I’ve seen others essentially saying the same thing...
Biomechanics of the head for Olympic boxer punches to the face | British Journal of Sports Medicine

I think a lightweight boxer’s hands looking faster is more of an illusion and perhaps expectation bias in a sense than what actually is. Karate nd of like a Ferrari looks like it’s going faster than a Toyota Highlander if you’re not watching them side by side, when in all actuality they were both going 75 mph.

well that fits with what i was saying above, a greater weight will make it harder to change direction because of the conservation of momentum, that can make you look slow, when compared with someone who can turn on a sixpence, but the actual mechanics of a punch or,a kick won't,slow,down if there is enough power to accelerate the movement

 

[Gerry Seymour]

well that fits with what i was saying above, a greater weight will make it harder to change direction because of the conservation of momentum, that can make you look slow, when compared with someone who can turn on a sixpence, but the actual mechanics of a punch or,a kick won't,slow,down if there is enough power to accelerate the movement

Yep, that's what I was getting at earlier. Well stated. And, damnit, it's "turn on a dime". ::Grumble...Brits...grumble::

 

[JR 137]

Hey, JR, find the keyboard gnome that's eating some of your letters and smack him. I think I caught all of what you said in that.

iPhone’s words, not mine

It was supposed to say “kind of like” rather than “karate nd like.”

 

[JR 137]

That would explain the results of visualization studies. Visualization obviously doesn't develop muscle, but the brain does activate in ways remarkably similar to the physical activity visualized.

I don’t know how much of it would or could be due to visualization alone. Actually performing the technique would be far better in developing motor pathways. Seeing the technique (even in your mind) is one thing; feeling it is entirely on another level.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I don’t know how much of it would or could be due to visualization alone. Actually performing the technique would be far better in developing motor pathways. Seeing the technique (even in your mind) is one thing; feeling it is entirely on another level.

The studies that were done (with control - I think it was back in the early 1980's) showed a significant effect from the visualization. They did use an activity the people knew how to do (which should ensure more accurate visualization). Other research has shown that visualization of an activity activates many of the same areas, including the motor control areas. This has led to the theory that activating those areas through visualization causes some of the same neurological learning as performing them physically. I'm not aware of any follow-up or replication studies that would reinforce either the results or the theory.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Different MA style emphasizes on different strategies. Chinese wrestling emphasizes on "not to let your opponent to feel comfortable on his grips".

For example, if your opponent has a grip on your upper collar, you will

- use your arm to lift up his gripping arm, or
- drop your elbow over that hand.

Not sure different styles such as Judo will emphasize this as well.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Different MA style emphasizes on different strategies. Chinese wrestling emphasizes on "not to let your opponent to feel comfortable on his grips".

For example, if your opponent has a grip on your upper collar, you will

- use your arm to lift up his gripping arm, or
- drop your elbow over that hand.

Not sure different styles such as Judo will emphasize this as well.

Letting someone have a grip without disrupting something in their structure would be a good way to get yourself thrown in any grappling work. That grip isn’t there just so they can rest their tired arm.

 

[drop bear]

Letting someone have a grip without disrupting something in their structure would be a good way to get yourself thrown in any grappling work. That grip isn’t there just so they can rest their tired arm.