I will be performing Chil-Sung E Lo!

[MBuzzy]

I had thought Soo Bahk Do was Moo Duk Kwan. Also, I heard that Tae Kwon Do is/was?

That is correct, as JW said, Soo Bahk Do is THE Moo Duk Kwan, i.e. the Hwang family (H.C. Hwang, President of the US Soo Bahk Do Federation) is the creator and owner of THE Moo Duk Kwan.

As for Tae Kwon Do, there are in fact TKD schools which are Moo Duk Kwan style TKD schools. But they are not THE Moo Duk Kwan, nor are the affiliated with the US SBD Federation.

I'm sure that you can find much more in depth details on this history on this site....but basically....

Following the Japanese occupation of Korea (ended on 15 August 1945), 9 major Kwans or schools emerged. These were:
Song Moo Kwan
Han Moo Kwan
Chang Moo Kwan
Moo Duk Kwan
Oh Do Kwan
Kang Duk Kwan
Jung Do Kwan
Jido Kwan
Chung Do Kwan

As you know, Tang Soo Do and Soo Bahk Do are descended from the Moo Duk Kwan, but some other styles also descended from Moo Duk Kwan. Each of these Kwans graduated a great deal of black belts in those styles, some affiliated themselves with the stronger Kwans, some continued in their own styles.

Today, though, Soo Bahk Do (Tang Soo Do) and Tae Kwon Do are the only major Kwans remaining. Tae Kwon Do the more popular strains, as I understand it, are descended from the Oh Do Kwan, although I personally know a few practitioners from the Jido Kwan (also Tae Kwon Do).

Most KMA practitioners are descended from one of these Kwans in some way.

 

[Lynne]

That is correct, as JW said, Soo Bahk Do is THE Moo Duk Kwan, i.e. the Hwang family (H.C. Hwang, President of the US Soo Bahk Do Federation) is the creator and owner of THE Moo Duk Kwan.

As for Tae Kwon Do, there are in fact TKD schools which are Moo Duk Kwan style TKD schools. But they are not THE Moo Duk Kwan, nor are the affiliated with the US SBD Federation.

I'm sure that you can find much more in depth details on this history on this site....but basically....

Following the Japanese occupation of Korea (ended on 15 August 1945), 9 major Kwans or schools emerged. These were:
Song Moo Kwan
Han Moo Kwan
Chang Moo Kwan
Moo Duk Kwan
Oh Do Kwan
Kang Duk Kwan
Jung Do Kwan
Jido Kwan
Chung Do Kwan

As you know, Tang Soo Do and Soo Bahk Do are descended from the Moo Duk Kwan, but some other styles also descended from Moo Duk Kwan. Each of these Kwans graduated a great deal of black belts in those styles, some affiliated themselves with the stronger Kwans, some continued in their own styles.

Today, though, Soo Bahk Do (Tang Soo Do) and Tae Kwon Do are the only major Kwans remaining. Tae Kwon Do the more popular strains, as I understand it, are descended from the Oh Do Kwan, although I personally know a few practitioners from the Jido Kwan (also Tae Kwon Do).

Most KMA practitioners are descended from one of these Kwans in some way.

Ok, thank you. Well, a school such as mine that is under The American Tang Soo Do Association would be considered a non-Moo Duk Kwan school then? As far as I know, we are not affiliated with the US Soo Bahk Do Federation. What about schools that are affiliated with the ITF or WTF??? I wonder if they can become part of two institutions? I wonder if they are associated with US Soo Bahk Do Federation. And what about in Korea? Are there MDK schools in Korea or is the MDK an American-only institution?

 

[MBuzzy]

Yes...our style is Moo Duk Kwan. At least I know that, lol.

So, Moo Duk Kwan means School of Martial Virtue. And we endeavor to incorporate the philosophy into our teaching and our lifestyle, but from what you say, JW, I understand there to be an organization called The Moo Duk Kwan. Is the Moo Duk Kwan an organization started by Hwang Kee or his son????? I need to find out how Soo Bahk Do and Tang Soo Do became two different entities, too (I know the history is on this board, so I shall research).

Lynne,

Your best bet is some research, but to make a long story short (and since it is your thread!). You are right, THE Moo Duk Kwan is the organization founded and maintained by the Hwang family (Hwang Kee and his son, H.C. Hwang).

As for the TSD/SBD Split....there are different stories out there. From what I can gather, the split mostly dealt with the "contamination" of the art. Basically, Tang Soo Do had become very large and a lot of school owners were teaching their own interpretations of the the style. I've heard stories of Hwang Kee making surprise visits and finding chinese and japanese characters all over the schools and curriculums that had diverged from his vision.

Therefore, he strove to protect his intellectual property by copyrighting the Tang Soo Do name and curriculum. It was ruled in the courts, though, that Tang Soo Do was a generic term and therefore could not be copyrighted, so he copyrighted the term Soo Bahk Do - which is another translation for the Kanji characters for "Karate"....another generic term.

This formed the US Soo Bahk Do Federation. The Federation then created a standardized curriculum and began enforcing this on its schools. It has its advantages and its disadvantages, but the biggest thing is the members of the federation have direct access to the man and family who created Tang Soo Do and Soo Bahk Do and thereby, The Moo Duk Kwan.

Does that clear it up at all?

 

[Lynne]

Lynne,

Your best bet is some research, but to make a long story short (and since it is your thread!). You are right, THE Moo Duk Kwan is the organization founded and maintained by the Hwang family (Hwang Kee and his son, H.C. Hwang).

As for the TSD/SBD Split....there are different stories out there. From what I can gather, the split mostly dealt with the "contamination" of the art. Basically, Tang Soo Do had become very large and a lot of school owners were teaching their own interpretations of the the style. I've heard stories of Hwang Kee making surprise visits and finding chinese and japanese characters all over the schools and curriculums that had diverged from his vision.

Therefore, he strove to protect his intellectual property by copyrighting the Tang Soo Do name and curriculum. It was ruled in the courts, though, that Tang Soo Do was a generic term and therefore could not be copyrighted, so he copyrighted the term Soo Bahk Do - which is another translation for the Kanji characters for "Karate"....another generic term.

This formed the US Soo Bahk Do Federation. The Federation then created a standardized curriculum and began enforcing this on its schools. It has its advantages and its disadvantages, but the biggest thing is the members of the federation have direct access to the man and family who created Tang Soo Do and Soo Bahk Do and thereby, The Moo Duk Kwan.

Does that clear it up at all?

Yes, it does clear things up. Very interesting to know the history. Well, we don't have any Japanese characters on our walls. We do have some Chinese though, Pyong Ahn

 

[MBuzzy]

Ok, thank you. Well, a school such as mine that is under The American Tang Soo Do Association would be considered a non-Moo Duk Kwan school then? As far as I know, we are not affiliated with the US Soo Bahk Do Federation. What about schools that are affiliated with the ITF or WTF??? I wonder if they can become part of two institutions? I wonder if they are associated with US Soo Bahk Do Federation. And what about in Korea? Are there MDK schools in Korea or is the MDK an American-only institution?

That's another tricky question. Your organization is not affiliated with THE Moo Duk Kwan, but you still practise Moo Duk Kwan style. The material is basically the same and due to the lineage of your founder and instructors, you have claim to the knowledge and possibly the name as well. It just means that you are not affiliated with THE Moo Duk Kwan. It is important to understand that there is a different between THE Moo Duk Kwan as an organization and Moo Duk Kwan, as a generic name for a school and style. So correct, your school is not affiliated with the US SBD Fed. Nothing wrong with that, it is just an offshoot after the split. All of those older founders were at once members of the Federation or its predecessor.

ITF (International Tang Soo Do Federation) and WTF (World Tang Soo Do Federation) are also NOT affiliated with the US SBD Fed. But they are descended from the same place. Their founders are also former SBD members...in some cases direct students of the Hwang Family.

Generally if you're a member of one organization, that's it. You can't be a member of another. Remember that affiliation like that offers you a great deal of advantages. Access to training materials, to the masters, tournaments, in some cases school insurance, a great way to give credibility, among many other advantages. But the different organizations have different curriculums and the freedom to teach their own interpretation of the same basic material. As we move through time, though, the organizations are starting to slowly diverge....in time, they were no longer bear much resemblance.

In Korea....Well, there are no copyright laws in Korea. And you're dealing with A LOT of politics there. A lot of old masters who knew and trained with Hwang Kee himself. Most schools in Korea are members of the Korean Soo Bahk Do Association (which is affiliated with the US SBD Fed) and therefore ARE members of THE Moo Duk Kwan. But there are also non affiliated schools in Korea who are just generic Tang Soo Do. In Korea, though, there really aren't any separate organizations (like ITF, WTF or ATSDF)...since their masters are so old, they have their own credibility.

 

[MBuzzy]

Just a note.....just because I said it here does not make it 100% correct. Just like anyone, I'm fallible, so if any of my facts are in error, please correct me. I seek the truth just like everyone else!

 

[JWLuiza]

Yes...our style is Moo Duk Kwan. At least I know that, lol.

So, Moo Duk Kwan means School of Martial Virtue. And we endeavor to incorporate the philosophy into our teaching and our lifestyle, but from what you say, JW, I understand there to be an organization called The Moo Duk Kwan. Is the Moo Duk Kwan an organization started by Hwang Kee or his son????? I need to find out how Soo Bahk Do and Tang Soo Do became two different entities, too (I know the history is on this board, so I shall research).

Yes, it does mean School of Martial Virtue... So is it a location, organization, or style? I would lean towards organization, because the current Moo Duk Kwan style is Soo Bahk Do, and I bet that most schools that aren't Soo Bahk Do have variations in body mechanics that vary from the World Moo Duk Kwan Federation's standardizations. It's like getting a degree from Yale... You can teach, but you aren't teaching for Yale anymore.

As early as the 50s Hwang Kee was using Soo Bahk and Tang Soo interchangeably, so they may not actually be seperate yet... But they will be as far as body mechanics

 

[JWLuiza]

Ok, thank you. Well, a school such as mine that is under The American Tang Soo Do Association would be considered a non-Moo Duk Kwan school then? As far as I know, we are not affiliated with the US Soo Bahk Do Federation. What about schools that are affiliated with the ITF or WTF??? I wonder if they can become part of two institutions? I wonder if they are associated with US Soo Bahk Do Federation. And what about in Korea? Are there MDK schools in Korea or is the MDK an American-only institution?

You may teach things that WERE taught by the moo duk kwan, but you don't have access to the current developments of the moo duk kwan. As MBuzzy said, you belong to one national or another, but mostly not both. ITF and WTF (are you talking TKD or TSD here in either case the following is still true) are not part of the World Moo Duk Kwan which is the international organization that the US SBD Federation is a member of. Both the US SBD Fed and the World MDK are headed by KJN H.C. Hwang. There ARE MDK schools in Korea.

 

[MBuzzy]

Yes, it does mean School of Martial Virtue... So is it a location, organization, or style? I would lean towards organization, because the current Moo Duk Kwan style is Soo Bahk Do, and I bet that most schools that aren't Soo Bahk Do have variations in body mechanics

That's dead on. I've trained on both sides and the biggest difference is the HUGE amount of emphasis placed on Hu-ri or the use of hips in Soo Bahk Do. It is almost over exaggerated. It generates a great deal of power, but without practice, you can sacrfice some speed. I've never seen a TSD school that used that much hip movement.

 

[JWLuiza]

That's dead on. I've trained on both sides and the biggest difference is the HUGE amount of emphasis placed on Hu-ri or the use of hips in Soo Bahk Do. It is almost over exaggerated. It generates a great deal of power, but without practice, you can sacrfice some speed. I've never seen a TSD school that used that much hip movement.

Personally, I think their over emphasized transitions between moves breaks the translation of the "bunkai" of the forms. It develops power, but you can have good hip without the ridiculous over emphasis on the hip preparation. To me, and this is opinion, I DON'T like watching SBD people doing forms... However there is a video an instructor of mine has of H.C. Hwang performing a chil sun or yuk rho form that is just AMAZING. I guess it is all the practitioner.

 

[Butch]

Just one small point here, GM Hwang was not the founder of TSD. The term was first used by GM Lee who studied ShotoKan in Japan and brought it back to Korea then rename it in Korean terms thus Tnag Soo Do and Karate have the same Kanji lettering. The rest is pretty much on line with history, but there are some gray areas.
Butch

 

[MBuzzy]

Personally, I think their over emphasized transitions between moves breaks the translation of the "bunkai" of the forms. It develops power, but you can have good hip without the ridiculous over emphasis on the hip preparation. To me, and this is opinion, I DON'T like watching SBD people doing forms... However there is a video an instructor of mine has of H.C. Hwang performing a chil sun or yuk rho form that is just AMAZING. I guess it is all the practitioner.

You are right about it being all the practitioner. Some people over do it and some people have it right on. I'm still working on getting MORE hip into my movements.

For some Bunkai, it works out really well....for others it doesn't work so well. It also depends how deeply you read the bunkai.

From what I've learned as a part of the SBD Fed so far is that it isn't the hip preparation that is emphasized, but the follow through. Preparing the hip is important, but the power comes from the hip follow through.

 

[MBuzzy]

Just one small point here, GM Hwang was not the founder of TSD. The term was first used by GM Lee who studied ShotoKan in Japan and brought it back to Korea then rename it in Korean terms thus Tnag Soo Do and Karate have the same Kanji lettering. The rest is pretty much on line with history, but there are some gray areas.
Butch

Sir, I'm curious as to what your reference is? I had never heard that. Do you know what year this happened and how it came to be used by GM Hwang Kee? Also, which GM Lee? Lee is an extremely common name is Korea and there are many Master Lee's. Did this happen during the Japanese occupation?

Tang Soo Do is the literal translation of the japanese characters for Karate Do (Way of the China Hand), but as I understand it, the characters were changed at some point from Way of the China Hand to Way of the empty hand, which translates to Soo Bahk Do in Korean (Hanja).

I was under the impression that Hwang Kee was the first person who associated the term Tang Soo Do with his style. He was a talanted translator. One of his biggest contributions to the early development of the art was tranlating the Muye Dobo Tong Ji from the original Ancient Chinese.

I did some additional research and I could find no mention of a Master Lee using the term Tang Soo Do.

 

[JWLuiza]

Sir, I'm curious as to what your reference is? I had never heard that. Do you know what year this happened and how it came to be used by GM Hwang Kee? Also, which GM Lee? Lee is an extremely common name is Korea and there are many Master Lee's. Did this happen during the Japanese occupation?

Tang Soo Do is the literal translation of the japanese characters for Karate Do (Way of the China Hand), but as I understand it, the characters were changed at some point from Way of the China Hand to Way of the empty hand, which translates to Soo Bahk Do in Korean (Hanja).

I was under the impression that Hwang Kee was the first person who associated the term Tang Soo Do with his style. He was a talanted translator. One of his biggest contributions to the early development of the art was tranlating the Muye Dobo Tong Ji from the original Ancient Chinese.

I did some additional research and I could find no mention of a Master Lee using the term Tang Soo Do.

Mbuzzy,

It is accepted that Hwang Kee was not the first person to use the term Tang Soo Do. It was another one of the original 9 Kwan's that used Tang Soo or Kong Soo before Hwang Kee did. I beleive that Hwang Kee actually used the term Hwa Soo do before changing it to Tang Soo Do and adding the Pinan forms.

 

[MBuzzy]

Mbuzzy,

It is accepted that Hwang Kee was not the first person to use the term Tang Soo Do. It was another one of the original 9 Kwan's that used Tang Soo or Kong Soo before Hwang Kee did. I beleive that Hwang Kee actually used the term Hwa Soo do before changing it to Tang Soo Do and adding the Pinan forms.

Do you know of any reference that talks more about it? I'm not denying that it's true or false, I'd just like to learn more.

I think this is just a matter of semantics. Even if someone else used the term first, I don't believe that there is any debate that Hwang Kee is the one who tied that particular term to this style, effectively name it and creating a style. Unless I'm mistaken about that too.

 

[JWLuiza]

Sure, there's a book by Master Glenn Jones called The Korean Martial Arts Handbook that talks about this. Other references include www.warrior-scholar.com/smf Butch isn't arguing about that Hwang Kee developed Moo Duk Kwan, but there are other Tang Soo Do schools that don't trace back to Hwang Kee at all. Like you said TSD just means karate.

 

[MBuzzy]

Thank you, I'll have to start looking. I'd like to continue this, but I think we've strayed pretty far off course. I'm really curious about the TSD schools that DON'T trace their lineage back to GM Hwang Kee, would you mind PMing me some details on that? Like, which ones and how that happened?

 

[JWLuiza]

Thank you, I'll have to start looking. I'd like to continue this, but I think we've strayed pretty far off course. I'm really curious about the TSD schools that DON'T trace their lineage back to GM Hwang Kee, would you mind PMing me some details on that? Like, which ones and how that happened?

I don't mind straying off topic. 98% of TSD schools you find these days will be related to MDK/Hwang Kee, but there are several schools that do non-mdk Tang Soo Do (in fact I would say many of the schools derived from Kim Ki Whang aren't necessarily MDK TSD schools since he taught his own brand of Tang Soo Do). But all those Kwan's you listed earlier, called their art Tang Soo Do before Tae Kwon Do came along.

 

[AdamR]

Just one small point here, GM Hwang was not the founder of TSD. The term was first used by GM Lee who studied ShotoKan in Japan and brought it back to Korea then rename it in Korean terms thus Tnag Soo Do and Karate have the same Kanji lettering. The rest is pretty much on line with history, but there are some gray areas.
Butch

As far as I understand it (and I have FAR less time and reading under my belt than many here I realise, but it's all discussion, right? ), way before Funakoshi went to Japan and taught Shotokan to that extent, the Okinawans were already practising Tode (Chinese Hand) after the likes of Matsumura brought Chuan Fa back from China. Tode uses the same characters as Karatedo (originally) and Tangsoodo. Is it not possible that the characters were used directly from there, rather than taking them to Japan and back first?

That's how I have it in my head at least

 

[MBuzzy]

I don't mind straying off topic. 98% of TSD schools you find these days will be related to MDK/Hwang Kee, but there are several schools that do non-mdk Tang Soo Do (in fact I would say many of the schools derived from Kim Ki Whang aren't necessarily MDK TSD schools since he taught his own brand of Tang Soo Do). But all those Kwan's you listed earlier, called their art Tang Soo Do before Tae Kwon Do came along.

Even the Tang Soo Do that we know today was Tang Soo Do before Tae Kwon Do came along.

So what lineage did Kim Ki Whang come from? And what organizations exist today that are not MDK related? Even the Mi Guk Kwan traces its lineage back to the MDK.