New Soo Bahk Kichos

MBuzzy

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The US SBD Fed members here should be aware of this, but I'm curious if anyone else has heard of these or incorporated them into your training. A few years ago, a set of new basic movements (Kichos or Kibon Dong Cha) were introduced into the curriculum. There are 5 sets, each with 2 variations. They are all based on the Chil Sung and Yuk Ro Hyung.

I will post more about each of the 5 variations when I get home and have access to the list as I haven't memorized them yet, but I'm curious what the general feeling are in introducing new basics like this. An added dynamic is that some are arguably not basic. For example, the first new movement is Hwak Kuk Jang Kap Kwon, or double back fist. It is the first movement from Yuk Ro Cho Dan (Du Mun) Hyung. As the basics move on, there are more advanced movements from Po Wohl (Yuk Ro Sa Dan), Yang Pyang (Yuk Ro Oh Dan), Chil Sung Il and Sam Dan, etc.

We are teaching the new basics to ALL students to prepare them for the higher level forms - so is it a good idea to expose the younger students to such advanced movements, simply to prepare them for upcoming hyung?
 

exile

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Craig, I'm curious—did the SBD folks ever use the kicho set that consisted of the Japanese (though some argue Okinawan) Taikyoku katas, which was simply picked up and imported into TKD and TSD, and is now dear to us as kicho il/ii/sam jang? I'm asking because it would be useful, in terms of your OP question, to know a little bit more about the SBD syllabus historical background...
 

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Craig, our Dans have been doing those new movements for about a year or so now, but Sa Bom Nim does not have the color belts do them. Here is a list of them i found...

Hwak Kuk (Seize, Smash)
Hwak Kuk Kwon Do - Single hand Kwon Do, Tuel Oh Kwon Do
Hwak Kuk Jang Kwon Do - Yang Kwon Do, Tuel Oh Yang Kwon Do, Single Kwon Do
Hwak Kuk Jang Kap Kwan - Moves in Du Moon Hyung

Do Mahl Sik (Paint, Smear Method)
Il ban - Choong Dan Soo Do Mahk Kee, Du Moon's smear/pushing moves
E ban - Joon Jul - Dan Jun admire move

Ta Ko Sik (Beating, Drum Method)
Il ban - Sang Dan Mahk Kee, Last move of Chil Sung Sam Ro Hyung
E ban - Ta Ko Sik at Sal Chu Hyung, Tuel Oh Sang Dan Kong Kyuk/Tuel Oh Dwi Kwon Do Ha Dan Kong Kyuk

Po Wol Seh (Embracing)
Il ban - Beginning moves of Po Wol Hyung
E ban - Beginning moves of Chil Song Il Ro Hyung and Ha Dan sweep

Yo Sik (Shake/Roof Shaking Method)
Il ban - Tuel Oh Ha Dan Soo Do Kong Kyuk/Tuel Oh Ha Dan Dwi Soo Do Kong Kyuk, Ha Dan Yuk Soo Do Kong Kyuk/Ha Dan Dwi Soo Do Kong Kyuk, Yo Sik Ha Dan Mahk Kee, Yo Sik Tuel Oh Choong Dan Kong Kyuk
E ban - Yang Pal Koop Mahk Kee (both sides), Yo Sik Ahneso Pahkuro Mahk Kee, Kwan Soo Kong Kyuk (turn to rear when advancing)
 

Makalakumu

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Craig, I'm curiousdid the SBD folks ever use the kicho set that consisted of the Japanese (though some argue Okinawan) Taikyoku katas, which was simply picked up and imported into TKD and TSD, and is now dear to us as kicho il/ii/sam jang? I'm asking because it would be useful, in terms of your OP question, to know a little bit more about the SBD syllabus historical background...

The answer is yes. The basic hyung in the SBD curriculum are nearly perfect replicas of the Taikyoku katas. There are some minor differences, but they are nearly perfect.

Heck, for a time Hwang Kee claimed that he "created" all three of the Ki Cho hyungs.
 
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MBuzzy

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Craig, I'm curiousdid the SBD folks ever use the kicho set that consisted of the Japanese (though some argue Okinawan) Taikyoku katas, which was simply picked up and imported into TKD and TSD, and is now dear to us as kicho il/ii/sam jang? I'm asking because it would be useful, in terms of your OP question, to know a little bit more about the SBD syllabus historical background...

I realized that - sorry! I was at school and didn't want to forget the question! :) Many thanks to Joel for posting those. He's got them dead on. I actually have the same list. At our Dojang ALL belts do these, but they are only required for the Ee Dan and Sam Dan tests.

UpNorth has got it right too, we do use the Kicho Hyungs imported from Taikyoku. The moves of those hyung also contribute to a lot to our basic movements that we use to "march the floor." It is actually published in most of the SBD texts that the "Kicho Hyungs" or Taikyoky forms were created by Hwang Kee in Seoul in 1952. I personally have not broached the question as to their similarity to some Japanese forms, but it would be interesting to know.

As for the new Kichos, they are very chinese in their form and execution. They all use the very long, deep stance and consist of a great many slower, pushing type movements. These kichos were taken directly from the Chil Sung and Yuk Ro forms.

So I'm mainly curious if they have made their way to any other curriculums, particularly the other curriculums that do include the Chil Sungs and Yuk Ros. I would be very interested to know or get some insight as to how they particular movements made their way into the curriculum at all. Is it more of a push to "de-japanize" the art? They are obviously of Chinese influence and really make me wonder what the future of Soo Bahk Do is and how much we will continue to divert from the path of the other schools of Tang Soo Do.
 
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MBuzzy

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And on the same note - if you have any insight as to the history of the Taikyoku kata, I would love to know the history a little better so that I'm a bit more prepared if I ever decide to ask the question....
 

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You beat me to it, Craig ;-) I was just going to point out to Kyo Sa John that it is taught in the SBDMDK curriculum that KJN Hwang Kee created the Kicho Hyungs. I own a copy of Gichin Funakoshi's Shotokan text and noticed early on in my training of the similarity of the first three basic forms. Also in the training texts (SBDMDK texts)are the Pyung Ahn Forms that are credited to an individual named Mr. Idos. After reading around a bit i found that it is widely believed that it was Itosu that the books are referring to. I also found those forms in Funakoshi's book under the name of Heiean. I've also seen them on youtube as Pinan.
 
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MBuzzy

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You beat me to it, Craig ;-) I was just going to point out to Kyo Sa John that it is taught in the SBDMDK curriculum that KJN Hwang Kee created the Kicho Hyungs. I own a copy of Gichin Funakoshi's Shotokan text and noticed early on in my training of the similarity of the first three basic forms. Also in the training texts (SBDMDK texts)are the Pyung Ahn Forms that are credited to an individual named Mr. Idos. After reading around a bit i found that it is widely believed that it was Itosu that the books are referring to. I also found those forms in Funakoshi's book under the name of Heiean. I've also seen them on youtube as Pinan.

:) Now you're starting to get into dangerous federation territory! That is correct, the Pyahng Ahns came from Japan and were created by Itosu. They are known as Heian or Pinan in Japan. Exile explained to me once that it is likely that when Itosu's name was translated, the spelling and pronunciation changed due to the difference in languages - but he can expand much more on that topic.

I would caution you a bit when bringing this stuff up in your Dojang, with the Federation publishing and teaching their version of the history....it depends on your Sa Bom as to how it will be received. So just be aware.

You will find that a great number of our forms come from other systems. EXCEPT the Chil Sungs and Yuk Ros - you will find those only in othe r Tang Soo Do styles.
 

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You beat me to it, Craig ;-) I was just going to point out to Kyo Sa John that it is taught in the SBDMDK curriculum that KJN Hwang Kee created the Kicho Hyungs. I own a copy of Gichin Funakoshi's Shotokan text and noticed early on in my training of the similarity of the first three basic forms. Also in the training texts (SBDMDK texts)are the Pyung Ahn Forms that are credited to an individual named Mr. Idos. After reading around a bit i found that it is widely believed that it was Itosu that the books are referring to. I also found those forms in Funakoshi's book under the name of Heiean. I've also seen them on youtube as Pinan.

Note: in his last book, published in 1995 on the history of the Moo Duk Kwan, Hwang Kee admitted that he'd found the Pinan kata in a book on Japanese karate in the library of the railway station where he worked, and that was the basis for the Pyung-Ahns. For the unappetizing details, see Hancock's article here.

Funakoshi changed the name of the set from Pinan to Heian and reversed the order of the first two. A very good introduction to effective, realistic bunkai for the Pinans is available here ('The Pinan/Heian Series as a Fighting System' in Abernethy's directory—you can download these fantastic articles for free).
 

Muwubu16858

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My teacher still refers to the 3 kicho hyung as Tae Guk Cho Dan, Ee Dan and Sam Dan (Korean pronounciation for Taikyoku), whih he says are their original name. So yes, your assumption is right, exile.
 

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:) Now you're starting to get into dangerous federation territory! That is correct, the Pyahng Ahns came from Japan and were created by Itosu. They are known as Heian or Pinan in Japan. Exile explained to me once that it is likely that when Itosu's name was translated, the spelling and pronunciation changed due to the difference in languages - but he can expand much more on that topic.

I would caution you a bit when bringing this stuff up in your Dojang, with the Federation publishing and teaching their version of the history....it depends on your Sa Bom as to how it will be received. So just be aware.

You will find that a great number of our forms come from other systems. EXCEPT the Chil Sungs and Yuk Ros - you will find those only in othe r Tang Soo Do styles.

Funny you say that, Craig. I once mentioned it to my instructor but she didnt seem angry or put off by it. We didn't talk very long on the subject though. But, I have heard it is a sore spot for some.

Heres my feeling on the subject... At this point in my training I'm not overly concerned as to were this person or that person says these forms came from. The fact that Hwang Kee was an amazing martial artist and one of the most important figures in asain martials arts in the 20th century can't be disputed. Right now I am just happy to be training under such an amazing martial artist and person as my Sa Bom. I wish i would have found her years ago. Soo Bahk!
 
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MBuzzy

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Funny you say that, Craig. I once mentioned it to my instructor but she didnt seem angry or put off by it. We didn't talk very long on the subject though. But, I have heard it is a sore spot for some.

Heres my feeling on the subject... At this point in my training I'm not overly concerned as to were this person or that person says these forms came from. The fact that Hwang Kee was an amazing martial artist and one of the most important figures in asain martials arts in the 20th century can't be disputed. Right now I am just happy to be training under such an amazing martial artist and person as my Sa Bom. I wish i would have found her years ago. Soo Bahk!

That is an excellent attitude - I couldn't agree more. Unfortunately, my engineer's mind is never going to let stuff like this rest until I find what I consider to be the real answer. :) You are definately lucky to be training where you are - especially with your Sa Bom Nim's recent "promotion!"
 

Makalakumu

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They started introducing these techniques to us when I was in the Moo Duk Kwan back in 2000. I was training for my chodan and was hitting up a couple of the dan classes at Master Nelson's (my teahcer's teacher) dojang. No gups were practicing them yet, but the dans were being trained. A few years later, the basics that were being introduced had replaced the basics that were normally tested at the chodan, eedan and samdan level.

Now it seems as if the progression I noticed back then has advanced quite a bit. From my understanding of what is being posted, actual basic patters or new basic hyungs are being practiced. This can only be part of the continuing effort to remake the system. And for those of you who think this is just a rumor, let me share one little story with you...

Master Nelson is the regional examiner for MN, WI, Iowa, SD, and ND. At a recent tournament he asked all of the sah bums and kyo sa's present how many of them STILL PRACTICED the old forms. A good majority of those present, did not.

So apparently, depending on where you live, there is a choice that teachers can make. The federation isn't neccesarily saying no, but they are definitely moving in that direction.
 
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MBuzzy

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Now it seems as if the progression I noticed back then has advanced quite a bit. From my understanding of what is being posted, actual basic patterns or new basic hyungs are being practiced. This can only be part of the continuing effort to remake the system.

That's a really interesting perspective, the new basics really are like little mini hyung. They are not basics in the sense that we're used to. More like a set of combinations. To me, it seems like a step beyond Yuk Jin (which as I understand has different permutations in many schools, for us, the one command is Hu Gul sang dan soo do kong kyuk, tuel oh choong dan kong kyuk). But each of these gets increasingly more complex and adds more additional moves to the combination.

So that leads me to a new question - what is their purpose? Is it simply to prepare us for the higher hyung?

Master Nelson is the regional examiner for MN, WI, Iowa, SD, and ND. At a recent tournament he asked all of the sah bums and kyo sa's present how many of them STILL PRACTICED the old forms. A good majority of those present, did not.

We get that pretty frequently too, it comes up fairly often that the Pyahng ahns really aren't practiced much - but they are still "testable" curriculum. Which is kind of difficult for the students....the forms aren't done often, they are really practiced, in tournaments, they are a death sentence......and yet, they are on the tests, and you are expected to know them cold, let alone knowing the applications.
 

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the Pyahng ahns really aren't practiced much - but they are still "testable" curriculum. Which is kind of difficult for the students....the forms aren't done often, they are really practiced, in tournaments, they are a death sentence......and yet, they are on the tests, and you are expected to know them cold, let alone knowing the applications.

The idea is, you can't win performing one of the Pyung-Ahns, no matter how well you execute it?
 

Makalakumu

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The idea is, you can't win performing one of the Pyung-Ahns, no matter how well you execute it?

I was recruited to judge at the latest tournament. Most soobahkdoin performed a sbd hyung. Of the few who did, they were marked lower because of it. For example, one student performed bassai at a level that I thought was great. My judging peers marked her a full point lower then what I saw.
 

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I was recruited to judge at the latest tournament. Most soobahkdoin performed a sbd hyung. Of the few who did, they were marked lower because of it. For example, one student performed bassai at a level that I thought was great. My judging peers marked her a full point lower then what I saw.

So once again... sigh... politics trumps excellence... :(
 
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MBuzzy

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The idea is, you can't win performing one of the Pyung-Ahns, no matter how well you execute it?

Put it like this....if you do a Chil Sung hyung decent, and a pyahn ahn hyung excellent, the chil sung will win.

If you do a Chil Sung horribly and a pyahn ahn perfect, then you've got a shot.
 

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Put it like this....if you do a Chil Sung hyung decent, and a pyahn ahn hyung excellent, the chil sung will win.

If you do a Chil Sung horribly and a pyahn ahn perfect, then you've got a shot.

Not good, not good. If they don't want you to do O/J-based forms, well, so be it—just say so, eh? What's really objectionable is keeping up the pretense that there's no prejudice against the O/J forms—that it's strictly the merit of performance that counts—while making decisions based on party-line-agenda correctness.
 

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One of the 13 year old girls from my dojang took fist in forms with Pyung Ahn Sam Dan at the regionals a couple weeks ago. I will admit though, she is exceptional at her forms, no matter which one she is doing.

I can't say that i really subscribe to the Pyung ahn \ Chil sung theory mentioned a couple of posts ago (at least i hope it isnt that way)... BUT... i have only been to 2 tournaments so my view is somewhat limited at this point.

Heres something to consider as well with the pyung ahn/chil sung argument... at my level right now, i know the 3 basic forms, pyung ahn 1 & 3, and chil sung 1 & 2. It seems to me that the level of difficulty on the chil sungs (more Il Ro than Ee Ro) is higher than the 2 pyung ahns. There seems to be more nuances to be aware of with Il Ro in particular especially with the amount of neh gung involved and to a lesser degree with Ee Ro on the breathing between the kicks coming back southward. So, in my humble opinion the offset of points awarded for the higher difficulty is warranted. A good example of a similar concept is in Olympic skating... a program with a higher degree of diffuculty that has some minor mistakes will win over a perfect performance of a lesser program. Naturally, this depends on the amount of mistakes made but you all get the point.
 

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