I will be performing Chil-Sung E Lo!

[Lynne]

Knock me over with a feather. As an 8th gup, I thought I'd be performing Pyong Ahn Cho Dan in the October competition (Central NY Classic). I just found out last night I will be peforming Chil-Sung E Lo (Chil-Sung E Ro-Hyung). I just began learning it last night, Thursday night.

Although a few moves were unfamiliar to me, the foot pattern and arm movements are not hard.

But...I am freaking a little. Gee. The movements take a lot of control - I felt awkward just doing the front kicks. I want to be rooted and I want to flow and I want to explode when I'm supposed to. Also, the breathing was a challenge. The breathing, at least for this beginner, is not as easy as it looks.

I look forward to the challenge of learning the new Chil-Sung form (three new forms, actually, at once is a little mind-boggling - I am flowing much better with Pyong Ahn Cho Dan). It's exciting to do something new and that's a bit difficult, that really takes some concentration.

I wonder how well I can learn this form in three weeks. I want to have good presence and feel very comfortable with the form. I wonder how well my muscle memory will engage?

 

[Tez3]

For me it's odd that you are being told what kata to perform and even odder that it's a new one to you. For my first few competitions I did the first kata I learned Pinan Nidan. My instructor at the time told me and I agreed with her that it's better to do a 'simpler' kata well than struggle to do a harder kata especially if it's not appropriate to your grade. I've seen quite a few lower grades doing Naihanchi thinking they will get points for an advanced kata whereas the winners were the ones who did the lower katas very well. The classes were in grades which is fair.


Lynne I'm sure you will do very well, remember to breathe!! Walk onto to the mat with your head high, shoulders back as if you mean business. It's not arrogance it's confidence and if you can radiate it even if you don't feel it you're more than half way there! Loud kihaps will help you as well, it helps release the tension in you. Head movements are important but often forgotten, if you make a mistake carry on and don't change the expression on your face! There's always a slight chance the judges won't notice lol! I always approached the kata in the same frame of mind as the kumite, aggressively!

 

[Lynne]

For me it's odd that you are being told what kata to perform and even odder that it's a new one to you. For my first few competitions I did the first kata I learned Pinan Nidan. My instructor at the time told me and I agreed with her that it's better to do a 'simpler' kata well than struggle to do a harder kata especially if it's not appropriate to your grade. I've seen quite a few lower grades doing Naihanchi thinking they will get points for an advanced kata whereas the winners were the ones who did the lower katas very well. The classes were in grades which is fair.


Lynne I'm sure you will do very well, remember to breathe!! Walk onto to the mat with your head high, shoulders back as if you mean business. It's not arrogance it's confidence and if you can radiate it even if you don't feel it you're more than half way there! Loud kihaps will help you as well, it helps release the tension in you. Head movements are important but often forgotten, if you make a mistake carry on and don't change the expression on your face! There's always a slight chance the judges won't notice lol! I always approached the kata in the same frame of mind as the kumite, aggressively!

Thanks for the tips, Tez. I've learned so much at this forum the last few days. As a beginner, I couldn't see the forest for the trees. I'd totally overlooked presence because I was focusing on execution of movements. I've been concentrating on presence the last few days and my forms are betters in all of the elements. Sort of like a mind over matter thing I guess. It's all coming together much better.

The aggressiveness and explosiveness is happening a little more everyday. I've come a long way in four and a half months. My blocks and punches are much more dynamic/forceful and my stances are a lot more rooted. The fun thing for me is that we never stop improving, that there is always room for improvement of our technique.

I believe it's just Black Belt Club members who are asked to do the higher forms. We are expected to work harder. We get challenged more.

 

[Tez3]

I was told as a white belt that in kata comps this was the time to legitimately show off! I don't know if you have ever seen a game of Rugby Union when the New Zealand team the All Blacks are playing? They do a Haka, a war dance before they start to intimidate the opposition, it is quite scary actually. When I was competing we always had the kata first then the kumite so I always told myself that my kata was like a war dance, I would do it so well my fighting opponents would be put off!

Incidentally, I was told and I believe it that people who do kata well also make very good fighters!

 

[JT_the_Ninja]

I've seen quite a few lower grades doing Naihanchi thinking they will get points for an advanced kata whereas the winners were the ones who did the lower katas very well.

Well really, doing a naihanchi / keema hyung at a forms competition is a bad idea anyway. They have great application and purpose, but they're hardly flashy and half as short as basically any other hyung. Which is why red belts in the ITF usually do palche deh in tournaments until they master sip soo as cho dans (and even then sometimes they'll prefer palche deh).

Good luck, Lynne. Wish I could help you on the form, but I dunno it even as much as you do.

 

[Makalakumu]

Tez3 - I'm unable to rep you right now, but that was an AWESOME suggestion. The All Blacks Haka is definitely the type of mindset you need for part of this hyung. The wehgung or physical aspect of this hyung needs to be emphasized with the type of crisp ferocity seen in the haka.

In the nehgung parts, you need to turn a switch and shut that energy down, immediately calming your mind until at the very end, you explode again starting with a monumental kihap at the end of the eye with the punch that follows the last kick.

 

[Tez3]

Tez3 - I'm unable to rep you right now, but that was an AWESOME suggestion. The All Blacks Haka is definitely the type of mindset you need for part of this hyung. The wehgung or physical aspect of this hyung needs to be emphasized with the type of crisp ferocity seen in the haka.

In the nehgung parts, you need to turn a switch and shut that energy down, immediately calming your mind until at the very end, you explode again starting with a monumental kihap at the end of the eye with the punch that follows the last kick.

Thank you! Just watched the All Blacks demolish Portugal in the World Cup. they look truly ferocious when doing the Haka! The All Blacks probably more than any other team apart from the other Polynesians remind us they are warriors and I think this is the thing we should remind ourselves about hyungs and katas, it's not dancing or going through the movements it's fighting! In class we can go through the Bunkai and work on that, competitions are different in that it's about appearance, you are the warrior out there showing how deadly your moves are! Sounds corny I know but it gets you into the mindset of the performance. It's also for this reason I believe you should pick a kata that you are very familiar with that you can literally do in your sleep, the moves should flow and ebb from your body as if it's second nature. Every nuance of the kata should be there to be seen, if the kata calls for tension in the body it should be that of muscles tensed for action not stressed as if you needed the toilet and can't find one! The relaxed parts should be the relaxation of waiting to move rather than slumped down looking as if you don't care much.

Can you guess I love performing kata/hyungs ( I don't mind which I'll learn anyones!)

Has anyone tried doing Kee Cho Hyung Il Bo with four people? It's great fun. Stand four people in the middle of the mats, in a square with their backs to each other, shoulders just touching. At the command they do the hyung in unison, try to watch from a bit of a distance and height. It works with the Kee cho Hyung Ee Bo as well and Sam Bo to a lesser extent.

 

[Lynne]

I just finished watching the All Black Haka clips. What a spirit. I think I'm speechless. I can smell the testosterone, lol! (Where did their necks go? And I can't believe the size of their legs.)

I'd like to get some of that ferocity in my forms alright, a ferocity with steely determination.

 

[Makalakumu]

Watch this version of the Haka. The guy with his shirt off is very casual and relaxed while the intensity if roiling around him, yet he displays supreme confidence when he does execute a movement. During the slow parts of this form, this is the kind of mindset that you want to emulate.

 

[Tez3]

Ah, rugby... a game of thugs played by gentlemen. Soccer ... a game of gentlemen played by thugs. Rugby men in their shorts...ooh don't get me started lol!

Most Polynesian men I think still regard themselves as warriors or at the very least descendants of warriors. Martial spirit is very strong in them, most seem to go for Rugby or Aussie rules I think as opposed to martial arts,though I think Hawaii (correct me if I'm wrong) has a strong martial arts culture?

I've just come back from the Open Day at our local fire station where we were asked to do a display. I did Pinan Shodan and Chil Sung Il Ro to contrast each other. Lots of non martial arts people watching, the trick is to go inside your head and concentrate then it's just you and you're not aware of people being there.

 

[Kacey]

For me it's odd that you are being told what kata to perform and even odder that it's a new one to you. For my first few competitions I did the first kata I learned Pinan Nidan. My instructor at the time told me and I agreed with her that it's better to do a 'simpler' kata well than struggle to do a harder kata especially if it's not appropriate to your grade.

I agree with Tez. Competition is a time to show off - and while I'm all for pushing people as fast and hard as they can go, pushing too fast and/or hard can push people right out the door. Sending someone to a competition to perform a pattern that they are unsure of - especially, as I recall this being, their first tournament - doesn't strike me as high expectations; it strikes me as setting someone up to fail. I'm not saying you're going to fail - I'm sure, with your drive, that you'll do fine - but in general, as an instructor, I consider this to be a poor practice.

Lynne I'm sure you will do very well, remember to breathe!! Walk onto to the mat with your head high, shoulders back as if you mean business. It's not arrogance it's confidence and if you can radiate it even if you don't feel it you're more than half way there! Loud kihaps will help you as well, it helps release the tension in you. Head movements are important but often forgotten, if you make a mistake carry on and don't change the expression on your face! There's always a slight chance the judges won't notice lol! I always approached the kata in the same frame of mind as the kumite, aggressively!

This, also, is great advice!

 

[Lynne]

I agree with Tez. Competition is a time to show off - and while I'm all for pushing people as fast and hard as they can go, pushing too fast and/or hard can push people right out the door. Sending someone to a competition to perform a pattern that they are unsure of - especially, as I recall this being, their first tournament - doesn't strike me as high expectations; it strikes me as setting someone up to fail. I'm not saying you're going to fail - I'm sure, with your drive, that you'll do fine - but in general, as an instructor, I consider this to be a poor practice.



This, also, is great advice!

New moves, new preparations, whether to hold the hand vertical or angled in this knife block or that one, stepping deeply enough in the double fist block - lots to learn. We have special help classes and I may attend a few of those so I can get the correction I need. I've got the foot pattern down but doing new moves with the correct hand preparation is a bugger - it doesn't flow yet. Of course it doesn't. I just started learning the form last Thursday.

I don't mind not winning, but I want to execute the form very well.

I forgot - one of the orange belts is doing the form taught at her level, Pyong Ahn E Dan. So, I guess we are strongly encouraged to do a Chil-Sung form but perhaps we don't have to if we are uncomfortable with it.

 

[Lynne]

Well really, doing a naihanchi / keema hyung at a forms competition is a bad idea anyway. They have great application and purpose, but they're hardly flashy and half as short as basically any other hyung. Which is why red belts in the ITF usually do palche deh in tournaments until they master sip soo as cho dans (and even then sometimes they'll prefer palche deh).

Good luck, Lynne. Wish I could help you on the form, but I dunno it even as much as you do.

Maybe you can find someone to teach you the Chil-Sung forms, JT. I believe I would want to learn them. Do you know why your school doesn't teach them? And thank you for the sentiment.

We do Chil-Sung E Ro-Hyung a little differently than Upnorthkyosa does in his video. For the energy press, we go into a low side stance and scoop, turn into a front stance and press. In the few Chil-Sung videos I've seen on the internet, no one does the side stance first in Chil-Sung E Ro-Hyung.

I've got the footwork and preparation down. Now, I'm trying to go from water to fire in the energy press to the front kick and back to water again as I do the next energy scoop and press.

I think for a black belt, it would be very easy to get the basics because you already know how to do a double-fist block, chop to the throat, knee to the head, middle knife block with preparation, and so on. I suspect that the breathing in this form is the real trick. When I do an energy scoop I really can't inhale because I'd pass out before I got to exhale during the press. I need to learn how to breathe during my forms like the black belts do. Unfortunately, I don't get to hear them breathe very often.

 

[AdamR]

Maybe you can find someone to teach you the Chil-Sung forms, JT. I believe I would want to learn them. Do you know why your school doesn't teach them?

Some places don't teach them if they are trying to really stick to just a Moo Duk Kwan style of Tang Soo Do, as the forms are essentially part of Soo Bahk Do. I don't know if it's the case in this case, but there it is

 

[Lynne]

Some places don't teach them if they are trying to really stick to just a Moo Duk Kwan style of Tang Soo Do, as the forms are essentially part of Soo Bahk Do. I don't know if it's the case in this case, but there it is

Well, that makes sense.

I don't yet know the history, other than Hwang Kee initiated the Moo Duk Kwan style. I should research the politics, etc., on this board.

 

[MBuzzy]

Some places don't teach them if they are trying to really stick to just a Moo Duk Kwan style of Tang Soo Do, as the forms are essentially part of Soo Bahk Do. I don't know if it's the case in this case, but there it is

I don't know about people "trying to stick to just a Moo Duk Kwan style of Tang Soo Do" since Soo Bahk Do IS Moo Duk Kwan. In fact, the forms were created by Grand Master Hwang Kee...who was the founder of Moo Duk Kwan (Tang Soo Do AND Soo Bahk Do).

The biggest reason why most schools in Tang Soo Do do not practice the Chil Sung or Yuk Ro series forms is that they are copyrighted intellectual property of the Hwang Family. Following the Soo Bahk Do, Tang Soo Do split, there were some copyright suits to ensure that the things specifically created by Hwang Kee were protected. Including logos, standardized curriculum, etc.

There are still a few Tang Soo Do schools who do practice and instruct the Chil Sung and/or Yuk Ro forms, such as the Mi Guk Kwan, GM Pak, Ho Sik's school, GM Byrne's schools, etc. I do not know what arrangement exists between these organizations and the US Soo Bahk Do Federation to allow the instruction of these - although it could be as simple as a grandfather clause.

I have heard that there are still some suits pending regarding the publication of these forms.

 

[Lynne]

I don't know about people "trying to stick to just a Moo Duk Kwan style of Tang Soo Do" since Soo Bahk Do IS Moo Duk Kwan. In fact, the forms were created by Grand Master Hwang Kee...who was the founder of Moo Duk Kwan (Tang Soo Do AND Soo Bahk Do).

The biggest reason why most schools in Tang Soo Do do not practice the Chil Sung or Yuk Ro series forms is that they are copyrighted intellectual property of the Hwang Family. Following the Soo Bahk Do, Tang Soo Do split, there were some copyright suits to ensure that the things specifically created by Hwang Kee were protected. Including logos, standardized curriculum, etc.

There are still a few Tang Soo Do schools who do practice and instruct the Chil Sung and/or Yuk Ro forms, such as the Mi Guk Kwan, GM Pak, Ho Sik's school, GM Byrne's schools, etc. I do not know what arrangement exists between these organizations and the US Soo Bahk Do Federation to allow the instruction of these - although it could be as simple as a grandfather clause.

I have heard that there are still some suits pending regarding the publication of these forms.

I had thought Soo Bahk Do was Moo Duk Kwan. Also, I heard that Tae Kwon Do is/was?

 

[JWLuiza]

I had thought Soo Bahk Do was Moo Duk Kwan. Also, I heard that Tae Kwon Do is/was?

It depends on your interpretation: THE Moo Duk Kwan teaches Soo Bahk Do. So anyone who is NOT part of THE Moo Duk Kwan, can't claim affiliation with the organization. This organization also has a current and active Trademark on the term Moo Duk Kwan in the US.

Some styles, including TKD and Tang Soo Do schools use Moo Duk Kwan to refer to their style. However, these schools have NO affiliation with THE Moo Duk Kwan. In fact, the most recent break offs from THE Moo Duk Kwan faced legal battles for using: Trimmed Uniforms, Chil Sung forms, Yuk Rho Forms, and even the display of MDK certificates.

So, and I don't know why people don't get this, this means if you do Tang Soo Do you ARE NOT part of THE Moo Duk Kwan....

Isn't it so clear?!?

 

[MBuzzy]

So, and I don't know why people don't get this, this means if you do Tang Soo Do you ARE NOT part of THE Moo Duk Kwan....

But, you may still practice Moo Duk Kwan Style....Clear as mud!!!

 

[Lynne]

It depends on your interpretation: THE Moo Duk Kwan teaches Soo Bahk Do. So anyone who is NOT part of THE Moo Duk Kwan, can't claim affiliation with the organization. This organization also has a current and active Trademark on the term Moo Duk Kwan in the US.

Some styles, including TKD and Tang Soo Do schools use Moo Duk Kwan to refer to their style. However, these schools have NO affiliation with THE Moo Duk Kwan. In fact, the most recent break offs from THE Moo Duk Kwan faced legal battles for using: Trimmed Uniforms, Chil Sung forms, Yuk Rho Forms, and even the display of MDK certificates.

So, and I don't know why people don't get this, this means if you do Tang Soo Do you ARE NOT part of THE Moo Duk Kwan....

Isn't it so clear?!?

Yes...our style is Moo Duk Kwan. At least I know that, lol.

So, Moo Duk Kwan means School of Martial Virtue. And we endeavor to incorporate the philosophy into our teaching and our lifestyle, but from what you say, JW, I understand there to be an organization called The Moo Duk Kwan. Is the Moo Duk Kwan an organization started by Hwang Kee or his son????? I need to find out how Soo Bahk Do and Tang Soo Do became two different entities, too (I know the history is on this board, so I shall research).