I stand alone?

[Flatlander]

I have a hard time imagining anyone on government benefits buying plasma televisions.

Just to interject here, I have witnessed this phenomenon, it happens all the time here. The fact is, it depends on how these programs are structured, and what kind of checks and balances there are.

The brutal truth in my home town is that a welfare recipient recieves incrementally more money as they have more children. I *know* that there are people that live in my city that drive brand new vehicles, and are abusing alcohol and drugs consantly (as in every waking possible moment) that are able to live this "high life" by not providing for their own children.

 

[Melissa426]

You're missing my point. People who nowadays espouse messages of loving all without question, of peace, of giving everything you have to help others, are usually accused of being hippies, liberals, pinkos, commies, socialists. Ironic since these people are usually very religious, and their diety called for that same behavior.

Have you heard the one about it's easier for a camel to go thru the eye of a needle than for a rich man to get into Heaven? quote from Jesus the "Commie"

I don't object to sharing my wealth.
I object to the government telling me I must do it and how to do it.

You talk to me about a national health plan and I look at the VA hospital system as an example and it makes me cringe.

 

[Tgace]

Just to interject here, I have witnessed this phenomenon, it happens all the time here. The fact is, it depends on how these programs are structured, and what kind of checks and balances there are.

The brutal truth in my home town is that a welfare recipient recieves incrementally more money as they have more children. I *know* that there are people that live in my city that drive brand new vehicles, and are abusing alcohol and drugs consantly (as in every waking possible moment) that are able to live this "high life" by not providing for their own children.

And unfortunately, its not as "rare" as some would like to believe. The majority? No. A definite problem? Yes.

 

[Zepp]

How do we keep people from turning the "safety net" into a hammock?

An important question. I think finding the answer starts by finding leaders who at least believe in the importance of the social safety net, otherwise its programs will never be effectively reformed, just reduced. It's become fairly obvious over the past several years that our current leaders don't believe in it to begin with.

 

[Tgace]

Governments are people, selected by people. They are not inherently more or less effective than any other beaureaucracy.

Ever been in the Army?

Ive always said that if our military is the best on earth than the rest of the worlds Armies must really be #$%^@# up!! The problem with bureaucracy is that they get so big they cant see their own feet with a mirror.

 

[Melissa426]

I have greatly enjoyed the discussion but I am saying good night! I'll pick back up on this thread tomorrow.

Flatlander,
just out of curiousity,
Is this one of those scare tactic rumors about Canadian healthcare that it would take 6- 12 months to get an MRI if you blew your knee out attempting a spinning jumping quadruple roundhouse kick (or whatever)?
How long would it then take for you to get your torn ACL fixed after you've seen a orthopedic surgeon?

Thanks,
Melissa

 

[PeachMonkey]

You talk to me about a national health plan and I look at the VA hospital system as an example and it makes me cringe.

The VA program is screwed up because it is consistently underfunded and understaffed. It's not that way because it's a "government" program. It's that way because the people we elect (including Prez Bush), yes I mean people you and I elect, consistently savage it.

Let's look at another government program: the military. Funded with taxpayer dollars, run by government beaureaucracy. A lot of BS, as any of our fellow MartialTalkers who are in the military will tell you. But, it's massively funded, and has the finest technology and best warfighters on the planet.

 

[PeachMonkey]

The problem with bureaucracy is that they get so big they cant see their own feet with a mirror.

Yep. And this is true in the business world as well as in government.

 

[PeachMonkey]

If my "share" gets any larger its gonna get tough. The cry for more taxes for more government programs isnt pulling my heart strings....

If some of the things you have to spend post-tax money on now are provided for everyone, then maybe your share will actually go down.

Moreover, there are people who make a lot more than you who can easily afford a larger share.

 

[PeachMonkey]

Have you heard the one about it's easier for a camel to go thru the eye of a needle than for a rich man to get into Heaven? quote from Jesus the "Commie"

Exactly. And the Xians who vote for anti-government conservatives may learn about that quote someday.

I don't object to sharing my wealth.
I object to the government telling me I must do it and how to do it.

This isn't about "government telling you what to do". It's about we, the people, recognizing both the economies of scale that come with a societal safety net, and the fact that people *do not* share their wealth otherwise.

Some of us give to charities... some of us volunteer time.

But, when Reagan cut government support for the mentally ill, and those people were dumped on the street, you didn't see them being taken into homes. Those people are *still* on the street... the ones that are still alive.

 

[Makalakumu]

a. I can speak for my family. We were definitely not poor but nor were we rich. I didn't buy clothes at second-hand stores (rich peoples' castoffs, I believe you called them) because I had my older sisters hand me downs to wear. Both of my parents worked. My first car was a 6 y.o Chevette when I was a college senior. After college and grad school, I owed $36,000 to the government in student loans (this is 20 years ago, college was a lot cheaper) My siblings all have similar stories. Of the 6 of us, I know 3 voted Bush, one Kerry, and I am not sure about the other two.

This is a common situation in the middle class. Your values are middle class. Remember that.

B. In my state, Orange County had in 2002 a per capita income of about $21,000. Lake County same time had $26,000. In 2004, Orange County voted for Bush 70/30. Lake County voted for Kerry 60/40. Go figure.

What state do you live in? North or South? If there is a large population of evangelicals in your county, it doesn't surprise me...despite what the scripture says.

C. Regarding appreciating those who sacrifice for our country, see Tgace's response above.

My response is appropriate.

d. Here is an interesting article about charitable giving. I wonder if this had anything to do with Daschle's defeat?

Senator Daschle's defeat is partially due to Republikan thugs harassing native american voters with their confederate flag draped pickups. They chased voters away from the polls. They tailed voters home. They issued threats. Daschle protested to the Supreme Court. Hmmmm 5/4.

e. I have been on mission trips too (inside and outside the US) and I don't recall being asked if Jesus was a Republican or a Democrat.

We talked about politics all of the time. Why point was just an anecdote and in no way describes everybodies experience. By the way, I said Jesus was a liberal. There is a difference.

 

[Makalakumu]

Yes, one can always "do better". Do you believe Utopia can truly be achieved? Where we, as a nation apparently, differ, is in how we achieve "doing better". Who pay's for it, who recieves the benefits, how long do they keep them, whats attached to them (differing beliefs regarding issues like abortion, gay marriage etc..), what are we robbing from Peter to pay Paul so to speak.

I'm not talking about Utopia. I'm talking about making sure that in the richest country in the world, we do not have to bury children who are freezing and starving to death. We don't have a bare minimum in this country that could prevent this.

Who pays for it?

It doesn't matter who pays for it. I would pay anything I could do stop it. Why? Because that is right. Wouldn't you agree?

Abortion and Gay Marriage are red herrings. Perfect wedge issues to divert attention away from things that people should hear about.

If you honestly believe that over 50% of the country says "$%^#& the less fortunate" I think you are wrong. They may be saying "Im being taxed to death already, how can I pay for more social programs and keep my own roof over my head."

I may be wrong, but I haven't seen it yet. 51% of this country put their money away and ran their mouths about moral values. Meanwhile we have starving kids and more poverty in this country then any industrialized nation.

We pay the lowest taxes in the industrialized world. Our wealthiest have loopholes that allow them to shuck most of their tax burdens. We, you and I, pay the price and the Bush Administration is going to be business as usual about this predicament.

 

[Makalakumu]

Yeah, but that 1% more than yours makes all the difference.

Ever wonder why the scarecrow showed such a striking resemblence to Kerry?

 

[Makalakumu]

Same here. Dad worked, mom stayed home. Dad was constantly on the bubble of his company closing down (did after I moved out). Lay offs, home haircuts, reduced school lunches, hand me downs, scant x-mass'es, rural living, loaned my way through college, still never owned a new car. I owe, I owe so off to work (and second front jobs) I go.

This is still middle class. Your values are middle class.

 

[Makalakumu]

But I doubt I will see the ammout of money taken by the gvt. on my check stub get any less.....

They need someway to pay for WW4 AND cut taxes on the rich...geez...

 

[Makalakumu]

We have examples that can partially help us see the way... European countries that measure their success based on everyone's quality of life rather than on raw productivity or GDP, for instance.

Hmmm, this seems to strike a moral fiber and feels pretty good...

 

[Makalakumu]

Hippie implies free love and acid trips to me. Not something Jesus stood for.

The counter culture was about freedom, equal rights and social justice. Thirty years of spin by the right has made people forget this.

Liberal? Like getting hummers in the White House? Like being a skirt- chaser ala JFK?

I think the consequences of our President's "truth stretching" will leave a larger impact then a dress stain.

Try blood stains on tens of thousands of brown children.

I am making generalizations now, which is what I originally accused upnorthkyosa of doing, which is why I objected to his post.

I still don't think that my generalizations are that far off the mark. They are certainly better then the homey anecdotes the right uses to justify their morally bankrupt policies... :idunno:

Please don't claim "fruits of the spirit" for either side, unless you preface your statements as opinions or generalizations.

Melissa, the Right has been claiming the above for years and they don't preface their statements. Heck, President Bush claims devine inspiration! I think that the Left has got to start jumping in and talking about moral values if they want to have a chance on winning. The Right's moral platform is a paper tiger.

 

[Makalakumu]

Believe me, been there, done that, seen the electronics. Not that they are purchasing said items solely with their gvt. money. Some are supplementing it with "side jobs" if you get my drift...........

My TSD instructor is a LEO. We share stories because we deal with different segments of the same population. LEOs deal with a small portion of the people in poverty. The things you might see are not the norm. The norm is that these people truly have nothing and are desperately poor.

The bottom line is that I give all of my old clothes away in the winter time and I still have to treat my students for frostbite. One of my students has a crippled leg. She was raped, couldn't afford an abortion, and had the baby. She isn't 18 and can't work. Her wellfare checks amount to $642.00 a month. That ain't "high on the hog" by any means.

Abuse of the system is not the norm it only looks like it because people have gotten so good at turning their backs on the poor...that is unless they break the law.

 

[Makalakumu]

Yeah I was being a little facetious there. All the same, i live a fairly modest lifestyle, used cars, modest home, heck I dont even have cable. I earn a decent wage but my wife doesn't work full-time out of the home. Almost all of my $$ gets spent on bills and regular living. If my "share" gets any larger its gonna get tough. The cry for more taxes for more government programs isnt pulling my heart strings....

I hear you, man. I'm in the same boat. Our taxes do not need to get bigger. The people in power need to start paying an equivelent share.

 

[Makalakumu]

I don't object to sharing my wealth.
I object to the government telling me I must do it and how to do it.

I'll agree with you hear. I don't like the government telling me I have to help pay billions of dollars for weapons systems that don't work while people are starving and freezing to death in the richest country in the world. I'd rather my money go to save people rather then kill them. President Bush disagrees with me though...

You talk to me about a national health plan and I look at the VA hospital system as an example and it makes me cringe.

Reagan killed a system that had been going down the toilet for a long time. Comparing a real national program to the VA system isn't fair. Also, I think that treating Vets in this way has been Bush Administration Policy. So much for honoring ANY sacrifice for this country...oh well

"Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the law..."