Silk Reeling is Water Element

[Appledog52 25]

There are five elements in the level of the five elements system from Wuji. What element is silk reeling exercise? Anything from simple exercises to Feng/ZXX's total set?

I would say water; and then, stance training is wood. By this I mean high-standing ala yiquan (tree posture, and many others, such as my family's 13 postures taibao system).

Next I would say low stance training beginning with 'horse stance', 'bow stance', 'subdue the tiger', 'monk sits down', 'carptenter handles a drill' is fire.

So, the missing pieces are earth and metal. However, I believe that metal, which is linked to lungs and the air, helps transform the wood into earth (or helps the earth and wood interact). It oxynegates the water and promotes the fire.

This is something I have been thinking about for a while, since people in the Taijiquan system seems to start with water, we can now find a way to progress to the second level and "boil the water" to create steam.

 

[Same Trick92 43]

Yiquan was mentioned, so it may be good to mention that Wang Xiangzhai’s(founder of Yiquan) take about the five elements is about strength characteristics of one’s body and actions in combat, not in solo exercises . He leant this understanding from his teacher the legendary Xingyiquan master Gou Yunshen

In other methods of martial arts it may be different, but I doubt so

Edit - the five elements strengths of one’s body and mind in combat action derives from the concept of six directional intent exercised in solo exercises

 

[Xue Sheng138 9]

Water & Fire - Backward/Forward & Sinking/Rising
Wood & Metal - Opening/Closing & Splitting/Merging
Earth - Center/Balance & Up/Down Transition

 

[Appledog52 25]

Water & Fire - Backward/Forward & Sinking/Rising
Wood & Metal - Opening/Closing & Splitting/Merging
Earth - Center/Balance & Up/Down Transition

I know. But I'm not talking about xingyiquan or any classical interpretation -- rather, a new one.

I suppose what I am doing is speaking in a coded language to see if anyone understands what I mean. This is not a normal discussion. You have to know, or your response doesn't address the question. I am not sure if this is unfair or not.

In a taifeng, wind can be so strong that it blows down a tree. This perception of wind (in this case, I suppose, metal) is not as common as in places that do not have typhoons.

 

[Xue Sheng138 9]

I know. But I'm not talking about xingyiquan or any classical interpretation -- rather, a new one.

I suppose what I am doing is speaking in a coded language to see if anyone understands what I mean. This is not a normal discussion. You have to know, or your response doesn't address the question. I am not sure if this is unfair or not.

In a taifeng, wind can be so strong that it blows down a tree. This perception of wind (in this case, I suppose, metal) is not as common as in places that do not have typhoons.

well, since you are making this up as you go along, not much conversation to be had.... best of luck in your quest

 

[Appledog52 25]

well, since you are making this up as you go along, not much conversation to be had.... best of luck in your quest

Thanks! However I'm not making this up as I go along, it was made up hundreds and perhaps thousands of years ago. I'm just trying to come up with a new way of looking at it.

The wuxing , as a stage of reality between the source and the 10,000 things was applied to m stuck and some didn't. It's a way of looking at a process, not a set theory in a particular martial art. That's the 'coded language' I am talking about. In the sense that wuxing is an unstable/odd system (vs. bagua which is an even/stable system) it represents a moving process more cleanly than the overlay of trigrams. In this particular case I am trying to make sense of recent epiphanies from training.

There's always the risk I am over-analyzing things, but don't be too hard on me The sequence I posted has something to it.. and I find sometimes after many years taking things in a new direction can help reinvigorate your practice.

 

[Xue Sheng138 9]

Thanks! However I'm not making this up as I go along, it was made up hundreds and perhaps thousands of years ago. I'm just trying to come up with a new way of looking at it.

The wuxing , as a stage of reality between the source and the 10,000 things was applied to m stuck and some didn't. It's a way of looking at a process, not a set theory in a particular martial art. That's the 'coded language' I am talking about. In the sense that wuxing is an unstable/odd system (vs. bagua which is an even/stable system) it represents a moving process more cleanly than the overlay of trigrams. In this particular case I am trying to make sense of recent epiphanies from training.

There's always the risk I am over-analyzing things, but don't be too hard on me The sequence I posted has something to it.. and I find sometimes after many years taking things in a new direction can help reinvigorate your practice.

All i have to say is don’t get to hung up on this, don’t over analyze. I varies from style to style. And. IMO, and based on experience, over thinking this will do more harm to your training than help.

Good luck with this

 

[mograph]

All i have to say is don’t get to hung up on this, don’t over analyze.

Buddhists would say, "avoid attachments."

George Box wrote, "all models are wrong, but some are useful."

 

[Appledog52 25]

If all models are wrong, don't go from the model, create the model based on the experience. Going from the model is attachment to the model. Throw the model out and explain the experience using the theory--standard alchemical code, a staple of buddhism, daoism and martial arts.

From a historical perspective, Li Luoneng's systematization was accepted (and there is pushback against modern systematization, such as the simplified 24 form) because the environment by which systematization is proven no longer exists today. It's a malady of zhou problem, as noted by many in the community, and the dropping of attachment and the change of environment is is the cure.

 

[everything]

the models are probably getting more and more right (and certainly more useful) now (totally off topic)

 

[mograph]

If all models are wrong, don't go from the model, create the model based on the experience. Going from the model is attachment to the model. Throw the model out and explain the experience using the theory--standard alchemical code, a staple of buddhism, daoism and martial arts.

From a historical perspective, Li Luoneng's systematization was accepted (and there is pushback against modern systematization, such as the simplified 24 form) because the environment by which systematization is proven no longer exists today. It's a malady of zhou problem, as noted by many in the community, and the dropping of attachment and the change of environment is is the cure.

Theory is a model. A map.

By “all models are wrong,” he meant “the map is not the territory.”

 

[Appledog52 25]

update;

My Sifu said, "The body is fast, but the mind is faster." I understand this now. I've understood it for a while but I think I needed to mull it for a while.

The meaning is not that your body is slow. The meaning is your mind drives your body's speed. If you use "dumb force" (a term I just invented), then your body will be slow (and will slow down as you age). If you use the mind, it will be faster, and the changes (yin and yang; i.e. silk reeling) will be spectacular; 'be like water'.

This took me an incredible amount of time to understand. And I feel if I were to try explaining it casually you wouldn't understand. That's a real problem in the art. On both sides; people who have difficulty explaining it, and people who don't realize they don't know yet because they think it's easy to explain. I would say "You have to put your mind into the movements," because "The mind controls the body;" the yi leads the qi. It's like that but even worse. It's more like being able to control metal the way magneto does. You reach in and you can see all the little water molecules in your body and then you can move them. It's like that. But not exactly like that. You don't actually see and control molecules, that's silly. It's kind of like... changing the gravitational constant of the universe.

The problem is I don't really understand why the method works. It just does. I mean I understand why the method words but it doesn't make sense why it works. Well, I mean it makes sense but there's something odd about it. It really works like that? Wow, that's interesting, who would have expected that! The body and the mind are tied together. But they are tied together in a way that is difficult to see at first.

 

[isshinryuronin36 36]

"The body is fast, but the mind is faster." I understand this now. I've understood it for a while but I think I needed to mull it for a while.

The meaning is not that your body is slow. The meaning is your mind drives your body's speed. If you use "dumb force" (a term I just invented), then your body will be slow (and will slow down as you age). If you use the mind, it will be faster

This took me an incredible amount of time to understand

You've discovered something special. I think some time back I mentioned the mental component in speed, something few practitioners understand as it's very hard to explain. I can only describe it as the mind allowing the body to move fast. It's one of those things that may just come to you at some point in your training, mostly in the advanced stages.

And yes, as one ages the mind tends to put shackles on the body, thinking it's old. By rejecting this natural mindset, the body can retain speed, as well as other physical attributes, far longer than one could imagine.
How many 70-year-olds can sprint even 20 yards or do just twenty pushups? One percent? And I bet many of those 1% are practicing martial artists. Sure, they've worked to keep their bodies young, but more than that, they've kept their minds young and have not let the mind tell their body it's old and slow.

 

[Same Trick92 43]

update;

My Sifu said, "The body is fast, but the mind is faster." I understand this now. I've understood it for a while but I think I needed to mull it for a while.

The meaning is not that your body is slow. The meaning is your mind drives your body's speed. If you use "dumb force" (a term I just invented), then your body will be slow (and will slow down as you age). If you use the mind, it will be faster, and the changes (yin and yang; i.e. silk reeling) will be spectacular; 'be like water'.

This took me an incredible amount of time to understand. And I feel if I were to try explaining it casually you wouldn't understand. That's a real problem in the art. On both sides; people who have difficulty explaining it, and people who don't realize they don't know yet because they think it's easy to explain. I would say "You have to put your mind into the movements," because "The mind controls the body;" the yi leads the qi. It's like that but even worse. It's more like being able to control metal the way magneto does. You reach in and you can see all the little water molecules in your body and then you can move them. It's like that. But not exactly like that. You don't actually see and control molecules, that's silly. It's kind of like... changing the gravitational constant of the universe.

The problem is I don't really understand why the method works. It just does. I mean I understand why the method words but it doesn't make sense why it works. Well, I mean it makes sense but there's something odd about it. It really works like that? Wow, that's interesting, who would have expected that! The body and the mind are tied together. But they are tied together in a way that is difficult to see at first.

Can’t see the vid, so I only go by what you write. In/on what setting/srage is it you found that consciously thinking being fast makes you fast ? While you doing forms/solo performance or engage in combat or any other endeavors ?

Your Shifu saying ”mind is faster” he surely must have meant the overall sharpness of sensory toward one’s immediate surrounding(eventual opponents) rather than outing the mind solely on one’s own body tinking being as fast as can be ?

In the solo methods I study the mind engage in visualizations of outside forces/mediums acting upon one’s presence, which applies as something as ”no mind”(clarity of mind) when there actually are forces acting upon one’s presence .

Have you ever entered the ”realm/state of mind” where one’s surroundings/opponents seem going in slow motion and you have all the time you need to deal with the situation ?