I never saw a man beat a snake before!

[don bohrer]

Gun defense is a tricky subject and most techniques assume you are within range to counter, but what if you are just outside kicking range? Just about the length of a desk away. Does anyone practice or suggest a move to close this distance? Also would this extra distance change the way you would execute your gun defense techniques?

 

[Michael Billings]

If so, the Freestyle Basics offer lots of ways to "close the gap." I use them to teach basic blitzes for tournament fighting, up until I quit training for tournaments.

I still teach the "Bear Blitz" (named for Mr. LaBounty and taught by him) which is essentially B3a or B3b with the lead leg fading back slightly before the crossover, and then you are blasting when they "read" a retreat. It is easy to do with some practice, but hard to explain. Even though I no longer teach for tournaments, I have used it as a way of closing the gap for 1st strike capability, preceeding execution of a technique.

-Michael

 

[Robbo]

but what if you are just outside kicking range?

I think this is a trick question sort of like Mr. Parker asked at a seminar I attended.

"What do you do if someone sticks a knife in your back.........


You Die"


Point is to not let yourself get put in that situation because if you do then you are most certainly going to lose.

Rob

 

[Ender]

I wouldn't use a kick anyway..what if you miss?

anyway, we had some cops in our class...and their tactic is to get the guy talking. Because most likely they can't talk and shoot at the same time. When he's talking, rush in and push the gun upwards with two hands. now obviously they do that so no one else can get shot. but it seems to work for them.

 

[don bohrer]

I would like to chew on this some more and will get back with you guys tomorrow. Work was a dog today and I am wasted.

 

[webpage20022003]

You can not do anything when a guy points a gun at you about 40 feet. You simply die

 

[XtremeJ_AKKI]

Originally posted by webpage20022003
You can not do anything when a guy points a gun at you about 40 feet. You simply die

I believe the discussion of this particular post is closing gaps of reasonable range. It might help for you to stick to the topic at hand.

Just a thought.

 

[webpage20022003]

Originally posted by XtremeJ_AKKI
closing gaps of reasonable range.

in your opinion, what range is within REASONABLE range ?

by the way, what is wrong with my 40 feets?

 

[Michael Billings]

You run!!! The odds are in your favor that they cannot hit anything past about 15 yards, which is 45'. Statistically, I know I have spent more time on the range than the average criminal, and I can hit him from outside his effective range probably, but who wants to risk it unless you have to. RUN.

THIS IS WAY OFF TOPIC - let's get back to a "reasonable range" for unarmed responses. At 18' - 21' most guys can get to you before the pistol clears leather, that should give you an idea about range and whether to attack or run. You are in an enclosed room, you can't run, what do you do? In a robbery, they are telling you to get in the back and get down on your knees, ok ... so I elect to try to fight. This is not everyone's choice, but it is so situational, it is difficult to respond directly with "what I would do". That is why I was referencing the freestyle basics as a way of closing the gap, a more general question I can respond to.

Oss,
-Michael

 

[don bohrer]

I myself consider reasonable range at attempting a gun disarm to be no more than 6 feet away! But since I am not sure how best to close the distance then It would be moved closer, maybe 4 feet?

Last night my brother stood there ganster style holding a gun (his fingers) on me. I practiced a front crossover step out as Mr. Billings suggested at 6 feet distance and I couldn't effectively grab or clear the gun. Most times I was shot multiple times before I could get the gun off my center line.

At 6 feet I found that I had to extend my reach a lot just to have any chance and my brother is 60 pounds heavier than me. So clearing the weapon was difficult and resulted in me getting shot more than once. This made me think the way I get the weapon off my center line is just as important as getting there. My thoughts in addition to closing are also on do you clear or control if you can close the gap?

I dont suppose some of you would be up for homework? Oh, my brother had to say BANG when he shot! Needless to say he said it alot. :shrug:

 

[webpage20022003]

Originally posted by Michael Billings
You run!!! The odds are in your favor that they cannot hit anything past about 15 yards, which is 45'. Statistically, I know I have spent more time on the range than the average criminal, and I can hit him from outside his effective range probably, but who wants to risk it unless you have to. RUN.

are you telling me that you run faster than a bullet ? i'm impressed with your speed

tried that before ?

 

[don bohrer]

What I found using a push drag (B2a or B2b?) shuffle is that I covered less distance but seemed a little faster than a front cross over step out. I just didn't have the reach and would really have to extend my arm to grab the weapon. So it could work at 4' but not a 6 feet. Looks like I am going to have to practice my front cross overs and push drag shuffles a little more.

 

[webpage20022003]

if the guy points the gun at me outside the reasonable range, here is what i will do.

i'll say. Don't shoot me and pull out the wallet and walk up to him without making him feel danger. Close my range and execute gun technique. The guy is on the floor and i'm on the car

the philosophy is this.

if the guy wants to kill you outside the reasonable range, you are already death without knowing him there. If you see him with his guns, that means he doesn't want to kill you.

may be , he wants your wallet or car key?????

 

[Michael Billings]

Good luck web....

Not faster than a speeding bullet, RUN AWAY is the appropriate response if available. There is something to be said for throwing the nice quiet wallet and keys in one direction and running yelling and screaming in the other. Which would you chase if you were after the cash or car?

Michael

 

[Michael Billings]

The idea is to move the barrel off line. From a holstered position at 21', using an actual firearm, it is very possible to stick someone with a rubber knife before they get the weapon up, pointed, & fired. This is a common demo in law enforcement academys when trying to teach rookie officers what a "safe" distance is. It is about 3 big steps. If the gun is out, the range gets closer, as you found out. Pointing a finger and going "bang" don't quite simulate the real thing. It is harder to draw and aim than you think ... and people move much quicker than anticipated.

Glad you played with it. If nothing else deflect the barrel to the outside breaking the opponent's index finger. It is quick, down and dirty. Play with the Kenpo techniques from there. They are not designed against someone outside of hand/foot range, so you either leave rapidly, or engage inside range.

Have fun,
-Michael

 

[Nightingale]

Originally posted by don bohrer
I never saw a man beat a snake before

Is it just me, or is the title of this thread just WRONG?

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

-N-

 

[don bohrer]

My original question was how best to close disance in order apply a technique. I drew some helpful conclusions from everyones comments, and thank everyone for their responses. Mr. Billings thank you for the example concerning law enforcement training.

Another thought does come to mind. It takes a special sort of person to pull the trigger. Not everyone can just kill without first coming to grips with that descision. Now I am not a psycologist but it seems reasonable say that until that person has psyched himself up to pull the trigger you might have some extra time or find an opportunity to act. Thanks guys I appreciate your responses.

 

[webpage20022003]

Originally posted by Michael Billings


RUN AWAY is the appropriate response if available. There is something to be said for throwing the nice quiet wallet and keys in one direction and running yelling and screaming in the other. Which would you chase if you were after the cash or car?

Michael

you will die first because you run. Why?

a bad guy thinks that you run to tell the police or call for help. If you run, i shoot you and get your wallet. No witness no yelling and no help

 

[Sigung86]

Interesting to see the number of folks pontificating knowingly that have never had to face a gun, in all probability.

Psychology like strategy applied to a gun fight usually goes to Hell in a hand basket as soon as gun(S) IS/ARE drawn. Most fatal gunshots and successful gunfights occur within 12 feet. Outside of that range you stand a tiny bit better than average time of successfully evading and escaping. Having said that, I side with whomsoever said, be careful about getting in those situations. An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of life. And I can't imagine that you carry so much money or drive such an outrageous car that any of it is worth your or a loved one's life.

If you find yourself in a situation where you face a gun, and all things are normal (whatever that may be in this situation) ... You have approximately 1/12 of a second time advantage, which used to be called the "Initiater's Advantage". That would be the time between the moment you initiate a move and the fact registers in the attacker's head, and he begins to respond. Fancy stancing and crossover stepping should probably be about the last thing you think about... And you need to train in a realistic fashion.

There is a well respected gentleman named Massad Ayoob, I believe, who has written extensively about survival in these types of situations, complete with pictures. You might want to think in terms of consulting his books as he is, or was, perhaps, taught extensively, in survival courses and self defense courses.

Kenpo has the things you need in it to effect a survival situation. Whether it is successful or not is a whole 'nother issue with many, many variables thrown in... Not to mention "luck". There is probably no template, or boiler plate technique that will work in all situations.

Dan

 

[Kirk]

I had a gun put in my face before ... I'd say 4 - 6 inches away.
I had no gun defense knowledge at the time (compared to very
little right now). It wasn't fun! But a million thoughts ran through
my mind in a second! I even thought about who was going to
show up at my funeral. I was a clerk at a convenience store,
and got robbed.

When the police came, they asked "how tall was he?" ... my reply
was "I dunno". They asked "what color were his eyes?" ... my
reply was "I dunno". They asked "what was he wearing?" ... my
reply was "I dunno". They asked what type of gun it was ... my
reply was "A smith and wesson 357 magnum, blue steel with a
six inch barrel, and what looked like pearl handled grips".