I just shake my head and say ohhh my lord!!!

[Manny]

Nothing new and maybe wrtitting the same over and over. Lately when I am teaching class the teens from the preceding class stay on the matt and so some WTF sparring, I can't blame them WTF sparring ist the only thing they know because it's waht my master teach, I can helped it I saw them and I just shake my head and a little smile runs in my face and I say softhly... ohh my lord... these kids think that they are good enough for sending ax kicks that smack the helmet and feel they are insuperable... if this kids think they are good enough to survive a bully fight.

It scares me they think because they are black belts and do some good sparring (WTF) they are prepared, when I know the kicks thay are using are worthless, nothing beats a well placed kick to the abdomen foloowed by an elbow or hammer fist to the head! or a very solid punch to the solar plexus or heel palm strike to the nose......

Oh boy today I am a little cranky.....

Manny

 

[ETinCYQX]

99 times out of 100 an athlete will beat a street fighter by virtue of those "worthless" kicks.

 

[Dirty Dog]

Those kicks are not worthless. They're worth plenty, in the proper circumstances. Surviving a street fight is about adapting to or altering circumstances.

 

[Instructor]

I sympathize with your plight Manny. A similar sentiment led me to Hapkido. I however think it's probably not a good idea to make disparaging remarks about ones teacher. If you don't like what is going on in your school you should make a change but it isn't cool to disrespect a master.

 

[Kinghercules]

Ive never kicked in the street fights Ive been in. In fact we were taught not to kick above the waist in the streets. But I can understand what you are experiencing. Ive taught at a WTF school as well and Ive seen how the students fought and felt bad for them. But as many ppl in here have told me many time....those kids arent goin to get in street fights anyway. They're just trainin to be trainin.

 

[dancingalone]

99 times out of 100 an athlete will beat a street fighter by virtue of those "worthless" kicks.

The two topics (high kicks and high level practitioners) have been conflated a lot here recently and needlessly so in my opinion.

Yes, highly skilled practitioners can probably do whatever they want at will against a comparatively weak attacker. What about Average Joe? Is it fair to say that there may be other tactics that might be more sound (better able to execute) given their limited training time and lesser level of talent?

 

[ETinCYQX]

Yes there are, but I would say even the average sport student will walk all over Joe Sixpack if they choose to, high kicks and all.

 

[dancingalone]

Yes there are, but I would say even the average sport student will walk all over Joe Sixpack if they choose to, high kicks and all.

What is an average sport student? Someone who trained at a school that teaches point sparring as a primary activity? Or do you mean someone who competes at Olympic sparring tournaments, who probably would be considered elite compared to the rank and file of taekwondoin?

I'm talking about folks who train maybe 3-4 hours a week tops. Should they use high kicks as a primary solution when fighting?

 

[Manny]

I sympathize with your plight Manny. A similar sentiment led me to Hapkido. I however think it's probably not a good idea to make disparaging remarks about ones teacher. If you don't like what is going on in your school you should make a change but it isn't cool to disrespect a master.

Fisth thing first, thank you for the reply but I think I did no harm to my master just by saying he he teaches so much WTF sparring and very little self defense, it's true, the class is kidie-sport orineted and that's the way it is. In the dojang there are only 3 men not counting the master so the men class is 2 +40 guys and myself (instructor), I try to teach my class not so sport oriented, becaue I am not a sport fighter and fighting in tournaments it's not my thing.

Again thank you your words are nice.

manny

 

[Dirty Dog]

What is an average sport student? Someone who trained at a school that teaches point sparring as a primary activity? Or do you mean someone who competes at Olympic sparring tournaments, who probably would be considered elite compared to the rank and file of taekwondoin?

I'm talking about folks who train maybe 3-4 hours a week tops. Should they use high kicks as a primary solution when fighting?

Primary solution? Debateable. Rule them out completely? Never.

 

[Instructor]

I've had a couple of students train with me with WTF background (my ex-wife comes to mind). After they get punched in the face a few times in sparring they generally change the way they do things.

 

[Manny]

Yes there are, but I would say even the average sport student will walk all over Joe Sixpack if they choose to, high kicks and all.

I have to desagree, the average tkd sport teen does not have to superior the average Joe Sixpack, if this was true I would feel myself confortable with what I know about TKD and MA. One thing is to succeed in a WTF or any other MA competition and other is to be street prepared to cape with one or two Joe Sixpacks.

Manny

 

[ETinCYQX]

What is an average sport student? Someone who trained at a school that teaches point sparring as a primary activity? Or do you mean someone who competes at Olympic sparring tournaments, who probably would be considered elite compared to the rank and file of taekwondoin?

I'm talking about folks who train maybe 3-4 hours a week tops. Should they use high kicks as a primary solution when fighting?

That's what I'm thinking, 3-4 hours a week, outside exercise like recreational athletes in any sport like hockey, soccer, etc. and competes in tournaments at the local level.

Not necessarily should, but why not?

 

[dancingalone]

Primary solution? Debateable. Rule them out completely? Never.

Certainly. As with anything, there is the percentage play and the riskier but higher reward play. Successful people know when either is appropriate.

My point anyway is one person's 'safe' option might be extremely foolhardy for another due to talent and circumstance. It makes little sense to talk about what an athlete would do given the context of the OP where he seems to be talking about some average kids.

 

[dancingalone]

That's what I'm thinking, 3-4 hours a week, outside exercise like recreational athletes in any sport like hockey, soccer, etc. and competes in tournaments at the local level.

Not necessarily should, but why not?

Well then no, I don't think kids with 3-4 hours training a week would be much effective using things like axe kicks to the head in a fight with a reasonable peer.

By the way, when I played varsity sports in high school, we got a lot more practice than 3-4 hours a week...

 

[Tony Dismukes]

Base on what I've seen of WTF Olympic-style sparring, my biggest concern from a self-defense standpoint would be less the relative effectiveness of fancy kicks and more the dangers of fighting with your hands down around your waist.

 

[Dirty Dog]

Base on what I've seen of WTF Olympic-style sparring, my biggest concern from a self-defense standpoint would be less the relative effectiveness of fancy kicks and more the dangers of fighting with your hands down around your waist.

This I agree with. Obviously it comes from the inability of WTF-style competitors to punch the face/head. I would like to think it's a habit that would be unlearned almost instantly in a street fight.

 

[ETinCYQX]

Well then no, I don't think kids with 3-4 hours training a week would be much effective using things like axe kicks to the head in a fight with a reasonable peer.

By the way, when I played varsity sports in high school, we got a lot more practice than 3-4 hours a week...

A reasonable peer being untrained, sure they would be effective. The axe kick requires pretty specific flexibility, but sidekick to the face or round kick to the head shouldn't be ruled out IMHO.

Varsity sports aren't rec sports, though.

 

[ETinCYQX]

I've stated my case here and elsewhere many, many times. Always the same way opposed by the same arguments. Some of you are very well educated on WTF sparring and sport training, and while your opinion differs from mine I have developed a lot of respect through our interactions and will continue to place you in high regard.

Some of you are not well educated and are spitting out the same hackneyed lines those of us with sport experience have contradicted thoroughly before, with anecdotal and scientific evidence and explained evenly. I'll offer only this; please consider that maybe the sport advocates amongst us might know what we're talking about.

 

[dancingalone]

A reasonable peer being untrained, sure they would be effective. The axe kick requires pretty specific flexibility, but sidekick to the face or round kick to the head shouldn't be ruled out IMHO.

Varsity sports aren't rec sports, though.

We had no rec sports at my HS so I have little to draw on to picture what you mean. We did have them at university, but those people generally played at a high level (i.e. varsity in HS) if it was a sport that was offered in HS. Those type of people are easily athletes and would instinctively squelch high kicks from someone with little to moderate levels of training if they participated in something with a lot of physical contact like American football or wrestling or even basketball.

In any case, you've already conceded there may be better options for people with lesser amounts of training and talent to use in fights, so we're really not disagreeing at all. Uber-good people can do whatever they want. Others might need to consider more carefully what they choose for practical usage.