Hung Gar vs. Villari

[jamz]

That's the best rant I've read all week!


Often an accuser's words reveal much more about him than they do about you.

 

[dianhsuhe]

I take it back, I am sorry to have insulted your school and/or lineage. I have had bad experiences with that system and heard soo many horror stories about them that I jumped on the band-wagon.

I apologize for judging you prematurely and impulsively.

I do, however, stand by my statement that I would be concerned if my instructor did not know much about the origin of the kata or who created it. THAT IS JUST ME-

There are probably loads of good people in your system as there are in most systems but it would be hard to argue the track record and reputation of the USSD organization- right or wrong, most people consider them McDojo's.

Flying Crane- Thanks for your correct observation and suggestion, although you are very nearly stalking me

As far as dialogue? USSD is not an org. that I care to share the mat with.

Jamey

 

[Flying Crane]

thanks for coming back to the table.

I do, however, stand by my statement that I would be concerned if my instructor did not know much about the origin of the kata or who created it. THAT IS JUST ME-

I will comment that this is often only possible with some of the newer systems like kenpo. In many of the older systems the creator of a kata might get forgotten at some point. Especially when it crosses over into another culture. I'd say some of the non-native speakers might have a hard time remembering the names of some dead Asian guys who created their kata 200 years ago. Sometimes this info just won't survive the cultural translation and the years.

Flying Crane- Thanks for your correct observation and suggestion, although you are very nearly stalking me

I was about to say "I was here first!" but then I checked your join date. You've got me beat.

 

[LawDog]

From all good systems there will emerge many bad instructors / students.
From all bad systems there will emerge many good instructors / students.
Do not judge the system only those who emerge from them.
:argue:

 

[dianhsuhe]

Well put Mr. Cunningham!

Michael- I agree although Tak Wah Eng is a relatively current figure I think. I was more concerned that if my teacher did not know who the creator was, he may not have a good grasp on the "bunkai" for the kata, but that is also an assumption.

I am often embarrassed on these forums for reacting too quickly to certain topics. I guess, even at 39 with almost 20 years in the arts I need to put humility on the menu de jour! LOL

Take care folks,
Jamey

 

[Josh Oakley]

As far as dialogue? USSD is not an org. that I care to share the mat with.

Jamey

Apology accepted. But I have to ask... from a logical standpoint, if you had no intention of going into dialogue with me, then why did you post a response to something I said?

Also, why would you respond to me with "It would concern me if my instructor didn't know that... LOL" if you were just stating that without any concept of influencing my oppinion? And merely saying "THAT'S JUST ME" is not a valid escape. If it is just your oppinion, and you had no intent to influence another person's thinking or at least enter into a discussion, why post?

Were you just saying it to say it? Frankly, I really hope that wasn't the case. I'm hoping you were trying to influence my or someone's oppinion. Otherwise I just can't see a point to the post at all.


Plus, heck, let's compare and contrast. My instructor knows that Kata 6 was created by George Pesare, but it doesn't influence how he teaches Kata 6 one way or another. I wanted to know George Pesare's intent on certain aspects of the form. You know what George Pesare told me? "Talk to your instructor. I don't usurp authority."

So let's break this down logically: The guy who created the form would rather I learn my instructor's take on it than his. So in this counter-case, knowing who the creator is, and knowing how to get ahold of him does me and my instructor no good. Likely if my instructor's instructor wrote him he'd get the same response.

I'd also like to note that George Pesare is arguably more important a contributor to the material that wound up in USSD's material than is Tak Wah Eng.


So without going into ad hominims and without retreating from the discussion (which you entered into, let's keep in mind) let me ask you these questions, keeping in mind my counter-example:

Why does knowing the lineage of a form necessarily make one's understanding of a form any better? If knowing the lineage of a form does not necessarily improve one's understanding of the form, then why should it concern anyone to hear of an instructor who doesn't know the lineage?

 

[Josh Oakley]

Well put Mr. Cunningham!

Michael- I agree although Tak Wah Eng is a relatively current figure I think. I was more concerned that if my teacher did not know who the creator was, he may not have a good grasp on the "bunkai" for the kata, but that is also an assumption.

Counter-point: I know who the creator is and I don't have a good grasp on the bunkai for the kata.

Logically speaking, the only two factors what would determine whether my instructor has a good grasp on the bunkai is if my instructor's instructor has a good grasp on the bunkai, and if my instructor learned it in the way that his instructor was taught.

 

[shaolinmonkmark]

From all good systems there will emerge many bad instructors / students.
From all bad systems there will emerge many good instructors / students.
Do not judge the system only those who emerge from them.
:argue:

those words humble me, sir.
I thank you!

As for USSD not crediting Cerio, Funny, who gave mattera his 8th degree, and taught him the rank up to 9th then?
LOL!

 

[Josh Oakley]

Actually I never said they don't credit Cerio. I said he's not in the manual. He's very much on the website.

The question was about the manual.

 

[dianhsuhe]

Hi Josh,

The "dialogue" reference is from another board and refers to intermingling with other kenpo systems, seminars, ohana get togethers, etc. Not typing on message boards.

I have apologized...

Jamey

 

[Josh Oakley]

And your apology was accepted. And you've still dodged my response to your initial post. So I'll repost:

Keeping in mind my counter-points. Why does knowing the lineage of a form necessarily make one's understanding of a form any better? If knowing the lineage of a form does not necessarily improve one's understanding of the form, then why should it concern anyone to hear of an instructor who doesn't know the lineage?

 

[Xinglu]

If I may, I think knowing the lineage completes one's knowledge. It may or may not affect one's application in the following: if the creator was versed in TCM, they might be using dianxue and that would affect a lot of things. Furthermore, they practiced Neijia, then that might affect the flow and feel of the kata. One instructor teaches a kata differently then the next, and a lot can be lost through the generations. Knowing it's origins might help some garner more knowledge about their art and some quirks about how it might work at a deeper level.

 

[shaolinmonkmark]

If I may, I think knowing the lineage completes one's knowledge. It may or may not affect one's application in the following: if the creator was versed in TCM, they might be using dianxue and that would affect a lot of things. Furthermore, they practiced Neijia, then that might affect the flow and feel of the kata. One instructor teaches a kata differently then the next, and a lot can be lost through the generations. Knowing it's origins might help some garner more knowledge about their art and some quirks about how it might work at a deeper level.

i do concur.
I still believe alot of Hungar is in skk.

 

[LawDog]

ShaolinMonkMark,
People should visit GM Cerio's web page, there they will see the name of C.Matteria and other USSD / FVSD people listed on the lineage page.
Many of the USSD and FVSD guys that have been listed on GM Cerios web site will never state that they were originally ranked through the USSD / FVSD systems.

 

[shaolinmonkmark]

ShaolinMonkMark,
People should visit GM Cerio's web page, there they will see the name of C.Matteria and other USSD / FVSD people listed on the lineage page.
Many of the USSD and FVSD guys that have been listed on GM Cerios web site will never state that they were originally ranked through the USSD / FVSD systems.

my name is there listed as a black belt under cerio.
I hold pride to that.
First name mark.

 

[shaolinmonkmark]

my name is there listed as a black belt under cerio.
I hold pride to that.
First name mark.

http://www.nickcerioskenpo.com/system_pages/family_tree.html

 

[RevIV]

If I may, I think knowing the lineage completes one's knowledge. It may or may not affect one's application in the following: if the creator was versed in TCM, they might be using dianxue and that would affect a lot of things. Furthermore, they practiced Neijia, then that might affect the flow and feel of the kata. One instructor teaches a kata differently then the next, and a lot can be lost through the generations. Knowing it's origins might help some garner more knowledge about their art and some quirks about how it might work at a deeper level.

In respects to the Kata's taught from SGM Pesares line, I found it very useful to go back to him and learn them the original ways - same with the combinations. It also allowed me to build a line from where and who changed parts of the forms all the way from Pesare - cerio - Villari -masters - to myself. The bunkai deciphering was a different story and a lot of the things taught to me from people of the Kaju decent helped to give me a different insight to what was happening. Palama 1 for example helped me change bunkai's in 1 kata, as well as 2.

 

[Josh Oakley]

http://www.nickcerioskenpo.com/system_pages/family_tree.html

Narrows you down to five.

 

[shaolinmonkmark]

)

 

[Josh Oakley]

If I may, I think knowing the lineage completes one's knowledge. It may or may not affect one's application in the following: if the creator was versed in TCM, they might be using dianxue and that would affect a lot of things. Furthermore, they practiced Neijia, then that might affect the flow and feel of the kata. One instructor teaches a kata differently then the next, and a lot can be lost through the generations. Knowing it's origins might help some garner more knowledge about their art and some quirks about how it might work at a deeper level.

Assuming the origin is forthcoming with such knowledge.