How Wing Chun is supposed to look...in my book

[Reeksta]

It continues to amaze me just how many elements of differing arts seem to be not that different if you see what I mean. Either that or MMA fighters are just so adept at picking things up, or just trained that way. Suppose it is all about concepts and what works in the octagon, regardless where that technique came from. Must watch more MMA next year.

Absolutely. Increasingly I'm finding myself moving away from a 'style v style' mindset and instead concluding that there are simply certain ideas which work, which tend to appear in some form throughout the entire martial arts spectrum. When I compare the wing chun I'm currently learning to the stuff I learn in wrestling I'm constantly surprised at how similar the central principles and even a lot of the techniques are, and those are two arts that people would not necessarily associate with each other

 

[Transk53]

Absolutely. Increasingly I'm finding myself moving away from a 'style v style' mindset and instead concluding that there are simply certain ideas which work, which tend to appear in some form throughout the entire martial arts spectrum. When I compare the wing chun I'm currently learning to the stuff I learn in wrestling I'm constantly surprised at how similar the central principles and even a lot of the techniques are, and those are two arts that people would not necessarily associate with each other

Yeah. I was thinking about MA last night and what all of it consists of. I don't have knowledge of the histories of any particular art, but I do wonder if a very long time ago, a few concepts evolved from which the rest followed. Like a basic martial art template if you will. Covering blocks, kicks and strikes etc. Of course though, I would think that it would have been a very long time ago, if there is anything plausible with my thoughts here. I do agree though, style vs style can cause some arguments. The Wing Chun that I am going to do is part of the EWTO Wing Tsun branch or whatever term is applicable. Really not fused about whether it it this linage or that linage etc. Just want to bang on with it.

 

[Hanzou]

All the top level guys take a little from any art which will be useful to them these days. Imo wing chun techniques are not as completely absent from MMA as is widely supposed. Anderson Silva and Lyoto Machida both use chi sau as part of their training, Frankie Edgar used chain punches a lot earlier in his career, Caol Uno used a variation of bong sau defensively, Forest Griffin and Ronda Rousey are both big fans of using a high man sau to intercept overhand punches and Greg Nelson uses hand trapping principles when training g'n'p strategies to his fighters. Admittedly, with the exeption of Silva, Machida or Nelson, these people may not realise they're doing wing chun . . . but they are.
For a more direct if slightly less high profile example, check out Alan Orr and his Iron Wolves team.

I don't doubt that many fighters have looked into Wing Chun from time to time to see if there's anything to glean from its practice. That really doesn't change my argument above. Heck, fighters also practice Yoga. Are we going to now start counting Yoga as one of their fighting styles they practice?

You can utilize Chi Sau practice all you want, but if you just end up fighting like a boxer in the end, what was the point? You mention Alan Orr's team. I checked out one of his students Aaron Baum in a MMA fight, and this is what I saw;

Where's the Wing Chun in that? Where's the Chi Sau and the other stuff you mention? I see boxing, kick boxing, Bjj, and wrestling. If someone didn't tell me that guy practiced Wing Chun, I wouldn't have known it.

In comparison, this guy clearly utilizes Wing Chun in this bout;

Fast forward to 1:30, its a quick fight.

Its great to have theories and principles, but if you're tossing them all aside to fight like a standard MMA fighter, what was the point in learning them, or (worse) advertising your background in them in the first place?

 

[Tez3]

 

[Transk53]

I don't doubt that many fighters have looked into Wing Chun from time to time to see if there's anything to glean from its practice. That really doesn't change my argument above. Heck, fighters also practice Yoga. Are we going to now start counting Yoga as one of their fighting styles they practice?

So basically you're argument is that any fighter practicing Wing Chun that climbs into the cage, is going to get mullered. Not much of an argument fella, just a statement of what you think. Looking at the latter vid anyway. Unless I have missed what you are getting at.

 

[Reeksta]

I don't doubt that many fighters have looked into Wing Chun from time to time to see if there's anything to glean from its practice. That really doesn't change my argument above. Heck, fighters also practice Yoga. Are we going to now start counting Yoga as one of their fighting styles they practice?

You could say the same about any martial art these days. No top levels guys devote any significant time to individual arts any more, they cherry pick techniques and principles then apply them to the ruleset they're competing within. Some of these have come from wing chun.

Where's the Wing Chun in that? Where's the Chi Sau and the other stuff you mention? I see boxing, kick boxing, Bjj, and wrestling. If someone didn't tell me that guy practiced Wing Chun, I wouldn't have known it.

I saw someone attempting to control the centreline and maintain a strong body structure. That's wing chun. There's more to the art than spamming chain punches. As for the question 'where's the chi sau?', chi sau is a training method, not a technique. Personally I've found it very helpful in developing my wrestling (and I've been wrestling for a lot longer than I've been doing WC) and I've heard Alan Orr say that he and his students feel the same way.

 

[Reeksta]

 

[Transk53]

You could say the same about any martial art these days. No top levels guys devote any significant time to individual arts any more, they cherry pick techniques and principles then apply them to the ruleset they're competing within. Some of these have come from wing chun.

I saw someone attempting to control the centreline and maintain a strong body structure. That's wing chun. There's more to the art than spamming chain punches. As for the question 'where's the chi sau?', chi sau is a training method, not a technique. Personally I've found it very helpful in developing my wrestling (and I've been wrestling for a lot longer than I've been doing WC) and I've heard Alan Orr say that he and his students feel the same way.

Nice reply fella. Thanks for posting the vid. Interesting that

 

[Hanzou]

So basically you're argument is that any fighter practicing Wing Chun that climbs into the cage, is going to get mullered. Not much of an argument fella, just a statement of what you think. Looking at the latter vid anyway. Unless I have missed what you are getting at.

It's an opinion that is shared by people in the WC community as well;

 

[Tez3]

You could say the same about any martial art these days. No top levels guys devote any significant time to individual arts any more, they cherry pick techniques and principles then apply them to the ruleset they're competing within.
.

And that's MMA, we hope all the techniques from all the various styles flow into each other to get the win. There's a chap in the UK Sami Berik who comes from a CMA background. he's fought on our shows before. Nice guy as well as being a good fighter. Always open to questions btw if you want to ask.
ABOUT Sami Berik Official Site

 

[Hanzou]

You could say the same about any martial art these days. No top levels guys devote any significant time to individual arts any more, they cherry pick techniques and principles then apply them to the ruleset they're competing within. Some of these have come from wing chun.

While that is true, we still see remnants of the base arts within their fighting style. For example, I still can point out the Muay Thai and Bjj techniques in Anderson Silva's fighting style. I can clearly see the Judo in Ronda Rousey's fighting style. I have yet to see someone utilizing anything resembling WC in MMA. Even Alan Orr's guys don't do anything resembling WC in the ring.

I saw someone attempting to control the centreline and maintain a strong body structure. That's wing chun. There's more to the art than spamming chain punches. As for the question 'where's the chi sau?', chi sau is a training method, not a technique. Personally I've found it very helpful in developing my wrestling (and I've been wrestling for a lot longer than I've been doing WC) and I've heard Alan Orr say that he and his students feel the same way.

And I use Yoga concepts and principles to improve my Bjj.

That isn't what I was talking about.

 

[Reeksta]

I have yet to see someone utilizing anything resembling WC in MMA

So you don't think Frankie Edgar nailing Hermes Franca with lin wan kuen resembles wing chun? You don't think Caol Uno deflecting punches with bong sau resembles wing chun? You don't think Fedor pak sauing Big Nog's hand before he punches him resembles wing chun? You don't think that Forest Griffin or Ronda Rousey using a high man sau to intercept punches resembles wing chun?
Because I do.

 

[Transk53]

It's an opinion that is shared by people in the WC community as well;

Fair enough. It is not about a practitioner climbing into the cage, it was about the wrestlers etc., utilizing aspects of Wing Chun. At least that is what @Reeksta was talking about.

 

[J W]

I checked out one of his students Aaron Baum in a MMA fight, and this is what I saw;

Where's the Wing Chun in that? Where's the Chi Sau and the other stuff you mention? I see boxing, kick boxing, Bjj, and wrestling. If someone didn't tell me that guy practiced Wing Chun, I wouldn't have known it.

In comparison, this guy clearly utilizes Wing Chun in this bout;

I didn't see any Wing Chun in the second video. Holding your hands in jong sau and then charging in head first isn't good WC.

I do see WC principles at work in the first, though, even if the WC is "unrecognizable" when it's wrapped around your more typical MMA arts (boxing etc).

I think you are confusing what Wing Chun is with what you think it's supposed to look like.

It's an opinion that is shared by people in the WC community as well;

He is basically saying there that WC isn't suited to MMA because it's too violent and the MMA rules restrict its effectiveness too much. I'm not sure that's what you're trying to say?

 

[Hanzou]

So you don't think Frankie Edgar nailing Hermes Franca with lin wan kuen resembles wing chun? You don't think Caol Uno deflecting punches with bong sau resembles wing chun? You don't think Fedor pak sauing Big Nog's hand before he punches him resembles wing chun? You don't think that Forest Griffin or Ronda Rousey using a high man sau to intercept punches resembles wing chun?

Nope, it resembles standard MMA hand striking. Interestingly, none of those fighters are listing Wing Chun as a style they train in. Edgar mentions boxing, but no WC. Rousey has a boxing coach too. It would appear that to you, any punch deflection or straight punch is "wing chun", when in fact western boxing also contains punch deflection and straight punching.

Just like JW saying that Aaron Baum's striking resembles WC. Actually it looks like two amateur boxers swinging at each other. Maybe you guys are looking at Western Boxing techniques and are confusing them for WC techniques? I highly doubt that wild hook punches work with WC's underlying principles.

In any case, if I showed that Aaron Baum video, and then showed WC training and Boxing training, does anyone actually believe that a layman would say that those strikes resemble the WC training? Highly doubtful.

He is basically saying there that WC isn't suited to MMA because it's too violent and the MMA rules restrict its effectiveness too much. I'm not sure that's what you're trying to say?

In other words, if you do standard WC in MMA you're going to get killed.

Just like that poor sap in Malaysia.

 

[Tez3]

To be honest if you do 'standard' any style in MMA you are going to get 'killed' though that is a poor choice of words. The point of MMA fights is to do better than 'standard', it is to be outstanding and to win.

 

[Reeksta]

Nope, it resembles standard MMA hand striking

I'm sorry but that's just ignorant. That's like me seeing a double leg takedown or a kneebar and saying it just looks like 'standard MMA grappling' because I'm unwilling to accept that those techniques have any root in wrestling or sombo (respectively). If you're actually going to deny that some of the most well known wing chun techniques resemble wing chun then there really is no point debating with you, which is a shame because I think it's a potentially interesting area to discuss. For the record, I don't think wing chun is particularly well suited to MMA competition (mainly to do with training methodology) but to claim that no aspects of the art have found their way into the mix is, in my opinion, simply incorrect.

 

[Mephisto]

So you don't think Frankie Edgar nailing Hermes Franca with lin wan kuen resembles wing chun? You don't think Caol Uno deflecting punches with bong sau resembles wing chun? You don't think Fedor pak sauing Big Nog's hand before he punches him resembles wing chun? You don't think that Forest Griffin or Ronda Rousey using a high man sau to intercept punches resembles wing chun?
Because I do.

I think the fact that other non wc fighters demonstrate moves that might be found in wc shows that wc has potential in the ring. The problem is that to my knowledge none of the fighters you mention have actually trsined in wc. You can find combative motions in any activity if you reach far enough, indigenous dances in some cultures show combative motions. Of course your example was an actual MMA fight but I think you might be reaching. I haven't watched any of those guys fight and wondered if they knew any wc. Wc uses punches and kicks there is no reason the art shouldn't be able to be demonstrated in the ring if it's a valid system.

 

[Hanzou]

To be honest if you do 'standard' any style in MMA you are going to get 'killed' though that is a poor choice of words. The point of MMA fights is to do better than 'standard', it is to be outstanding and to win.

While that is a fair point Tez, you can still see Boxing, Bjj, Wrestling, Muay Thai, and even TKD influences in modern MMA fighters. I have yet to see any recognizable CMA influences in modern MMA.

And when I say "standard MMA hand techniques" I'm talking about hand techniques that are pulled mainly from Boxing, and Muay Thai.

 

[Tez3]

While that is a fair point Tez, you can still see Boxing, Bjj, Wrestling, Muay Thai, and even TKD influences in modern MMA fighters. I have yet to see any recognizable CMA influences in modern MMA.

Doesn't it depend though on whether you have trained enough to see CMA influences? I don't see it because I haven't trained it and therefore don't know what I'm looking for, it doesn't mean though that it's not there.