How Wing Chun is supposed to look...in my book

[Jake104]

It's more than a competition. Checkers and UNO can be a competition. Ring fighting is more than that. It can be a test of skill. A test of courage and confidence. It could be just a pay day.

 

[Tez3]

It's entertainment.

It certainly is, it's also a business. People should realise this and stop thinking that MMA is some sort of ultimate pressure test for martial arts, that if someone isn't demonstrating a particular art 'works' in the cage then that art is pants and not worth training in. We coach fighters to win against their opponents, we coach them in all the ways to win, that is not necessarily 'good' martial arts, it's effective fight winning 'arts'.

 

[Jake104]

But.....,..., I don't think it's an accurate gauge of wether a MA sucks or not!

 

[Jake104]

It certainly is, it's also a business. People should realise this and stop thinking that MMA is some sort of ultimate pressure test for martial arts, that if someone isn't demonstrating a particular art 'works' in the cage then that art is pants and not worth training in. We coach fighters to win against their opponents, we coach them in all the ways to win, that is not necessarily 'good' martial arts, it's effective fight winning 'arts'.

Hey, I think we agree!

 

[Tez3]

But.....,..., I don't think it's an accurate gauge of wether a MA sucks or not!

Well I don't think I said you did, did I?
Many do though which is why at the moment a lot of threads on MT are turning into a thread about MMA.

 

[Hanzou]

The point is Hanzou that there is no need for an argument in this thread, or any thread.

I disagree. With no arguments there is no honest discussion. With no honest discussion, there is no exchange of knowledge and information. There's nothing wrong with arguments if they are positive and respectful.

 

[Jake104]

Well I don't think I said you did, did I?
Many do though which is why at the moment a lot of threads on MT are turning into a thread about MMA.

You didn't. When I post I imagine I'm speaking on a podium to a crowd of people and I have there undivided attention. Everyone has a glazed eyed look as they marvel in the words in which I speak.... I'm delusional! Haha.

You know, I think it's more of a fan boy thing. Real MMA fighters are usually humble and don't have the time or a reason to troll forums and dis other arts. They are usually nice guys and gals.

 

[Hanzou]

It certainly is, it's also a business. People should realise this and stop thinking that MMA is some sort of ultimate pressure test for martial arts, that if someone isn't demonstrating a particular art 'works' in the cage then that art is pants and not worth training in. We coach fighters to win against their opponents, we coach them in all the ways to win, that is not necessarily 'good' martial arts, it's effective fight winning 'arts'.

Well why exactly wouldn't a fighting art work in a competition revolving around fighting? Could it possibly be that the art itself revolves more around theory than actual practice, and when forced into practice it comes up short?

 

[Jake104]

Well why exactly wouldn't a fighting art work in a competition revolving around fighting? Could it possibly be that the art itself revolves more around theory than actual practice, and when forced into practice it comes up short?

It does work. You just don't see it. A few trees just fell quietly in the forest that I think you just missed.

 

[Hanzou]

It does work. You just don't see it. A few trees just fell quietly in the forest that I think you just missed.

Sorry, but I disagree. An MMA fighter using a double leg takedown is no indication that Bjj is effective in MMA, but an MMA fighter using the Guard is. One is a distinct aspect of Bjj, the other is not.

 

[Tez3]

It's more than a competition. Checkers and UNO can be a competition. Ring fighting is more than that. It can be a test of skill. A test of courage and confidence. It could be just a pay day.

I disagree. With no arguments there is no honest discussion. With no honest discussion, there is no exchange of knowledge and information. There's nothing wrong with arguments if they are positive and respectful.

Now you have hit the nail on the head. Honest discussion yes but not arguments of the type that are on here at the moment, and no I'm not pointing the finger at you.
Not all arts are 'fighting' arts, many describe themselves as defence arts. They don't see themselves as the ones who make the first strike but who 'respond' appropriately to end a situation so that perhaps their art isn't the most optimum art for a fighting competition. However by their lights the art is fit for purpose. Not all martial artists see themselves as fighters who actively seek to fight and I think it's this that some have difficulty with, martial arts that are not into 'fighting'.

 

[geezer]

Well why exactly wouldn't a fighting art work in a competition revolving around fighting? Could it possibly be that the art itself revolves more around theory than actual practice, and when forced into practice it comes up short?

This may be true of a lot of TMA and especially of a lot of WC these days. And it's a shame. While on the subject, have you read any posts by Hendrick lately?

Anyway, I don't believe that was always the case historically. In fact I heard stories that when some of the older generation tested their stuff in fights, GM Yip was very pleased when they won, even when they mixed in other non-WC techniques to get the job done. Practice over theory.

 

[Jake104]

Sorry, but I disagree. An MMA fighter using a double leg takedown is no indication that Bjj is effective in MMA, but an MMA fighter using the Guard is. One is a distinct aspect of Bjj, the other is not.

I disagree. So you are saying a double belongs to one art? That's like saying a punch or a kick belong to this or that art. If You want to get technical all MArtial arts could be considered mixed

 

[Jake104]

BJJ came from JJJ and kosen judo so it's mixed. They didn't invent the guard, did they?

 

[Hanzou]

I disagree. So you are saying a double belongs to one art? That's like saying a punch or a kick belong to this or that art. If You want to get technical all MArtial arts could be considered mixed

Double Leg takedown is a staple of western wrestling, at least as seen in MMA circles. Wrestlers have, bar none, the best DLTs around.

What variety of arts came together to form Wing Chun? I'm genuinely curious.

BJJ came from JJJ and kosen judo so it's mixed. They didn't invent the guard, did they?

Don't believe the hype. Brazilian JJ comes from Kodakan Judo, Catch Wrestling, and street fighting. Maeda was one of the modern era's first mixed martial artists. The Gracies continued the tradition of incorporating different arts into their system.

 

[Hanzou]

This may be true of a lot of TMA and especially of a lot of WC these days. And it's a shame. While on the subject, have you read any posts by Hendrick lately?

Anyway, I don't believe that was always the case historically. In fact I heard stories that when some of the older generation tested their stuff in fights, GM Yip was very pleased when they won, even when they mixed in other non-WC techniques to get the job done. Practice over theory.

Exactly. Hell, we have video of different schools of CMA fighting in rings and rooftops in competitive matches.

Isn't Huo Yuanjia a hero in CMA history because he defeated foreign fighters in competitive matches? Now all of the sudden TMAs aren't meant for the ring or competitive fighting?

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Double Leg takedown is a staple of western wrestling,

It can come from Shuai-Chiao (Chinese wrestling) as well.

The "山西 (Shan Xi)" branch of the SC system is very famous in different kind of "single leg" and "double legs". They even claim they have more than 50 different "leg attack (single or double)" in their particular SC branch.

 

[Jake104]

Double Leg takedown is a staple of western wrestling, at least as seen in MMA circles. Wrestlers have, bar none, the best DLTs around.

What variety of arts came together to form Wing Chun? I'm genuinely curious.



Don't believe the hype. Brazilian JJ comes from Kodakan Judo, Catch Wrestling, and street fighting. Maeda was one of the modern era's first mixed martial artists. The Gracies continued the tradition of incorporating different arts into their system.

Street fighting? Last time I was wrestling on the ground in a street fight I got kicked in the head and ribs by 5-6 guys. No joke, true story. Hawthorne CA. At the Thifty gas station. I Was winning the fight. Then his friends from the pool hall across the street ran over and literally kicked my face in.

 

[Jake104]

Street fighting? Last time I was wrestling on the ground in a street fight I got kicked in the head and ribs by 5-6 guys. No joke, true story. Hawthorne CA. At the Thifty gas station. I Was winning the fight. Then his friends from the pool hall across the street ran over and literally kicked my face in.

Doesn't mean ground fighting is not effective in a street fight. Just means kicking someone in the head while they are on the ground is a staple of western street fighting.

 

[Tez3]

We've just had an off duty policeman killed when he and his colleagues were attacked by a group who recognised them as police. The chap who was killed had head injuries as did two of the others who were hurt. it's assumed they were taken to the ground and kicked most likely.

Now all of the sudden TMAs aren't meant for the ring or competitive fighting?

I don't think anyone is saying all of a sudden TMA's aren't meant for that. It's just that a lot of TMA's see themselves as defensive rather than competitive, remember the saying 'no first strike in karate'? That's a good debating point in it's self but the fact remains a lot of people don't see their arts as being for competitive purposes. Remember your Shotokan history?