How Well...
- Thread starter MJS
- Start date
What kind of ring fighting? I'd think that UFC style ring fighting would prepare someone quite a better than Olympic TKD ring fighting. Boxing would probably be pretty good too, you'd learn how to give an take a hit. Even highschool or college wrestling would probably serve someone pretty well since you'd be competing against someone all out, no holding back (within the rules), that is going to be a lot better than non contact sparing would.
How well is 'prepared'? How do you score 'prepared'? Is a Navy SEAL 100% prepared, the stereotypical nerd 0%, non contact sparing 20%, boxing 50%, UFC 70%? Just throwing those out there, of course I have no way of backing up those numbers, just a SWAG.
Should be an interesting thread.
How well is 'prepared'? How do you score 'prepared'? Is a Navy SEAL 100% prepared, the stereotypical nerd 0%, non contact sparing 20%, boxing 50%, UFC 70%? Just throwing those out there, of course I have no way of backing up those numbers, just a SWAG.
Should be an interesting thread.
Deaf Smith
Master of Arts
For the actual fight, that is once the fist start flying, I feel it helps alot.
BUT, there is alot more to a fight than the fight. It's what led up to the fight that matters more.
If you fail to see the indicators an assault is going to happen....
If you fail to keep them at a distance...
If you fail to take into account the other guy may sucker punch you...
If you fail to see his friend about to blind side you...
If you fail to see that gun/knife/club/chain....
Well if you fail any of those (and other things) then it don't matter what your training was at fighting cause you lost the fight before it started.
Deaf
BUT, there is alot more to a fight than the fight. It's what led up to the fight that matters more.
If you fail to see the indicators an assault is going to happen....
If you fail to keep them at a distance...
If you fail to take into account the other guy may sucker punch you...
If you fail to see his friend about to blind side you...
If you fail to see that gun/knife/club/chain....
Well if you fail any of those (and other things) then it don't matter what your training was at fighting cause you lost the fight before it started.
Deaf
I think it is better then nothing. I have known some people in traditional martial arts over the years that thought they were ready (prepared) And found out that the mean streets were just that. You just never know until that time comes.
Very good points.
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My apologies for being vauge. Yes, I was talking about UFC/MMA style fighting.
Prepared...well, I suppose that'll vary from person to person. For the sake of the thread, lets say that it means that you'll be able to survive an encounter in the real world. The person who made the comment in question, in his opinion, feels that if you're fighting MMA style, that it will prepare you better than someone that trains in a more traditional art. For the sake of the thread, we'll say that traditional falls into the category of Karate, TKD, Ninjutsu, etc.
I hope so.
Good points. IMO, I would say that there are things that ring fighting would help you with and things that it would not, going off of the list that you provided.
Agreed. IMO, there is alot of garbage out there, thats being passed off, as things that're effective, when in reality, those things'll be likely to get the person doing them, hurt or killed.
StudentCarl
3rd Black Belt
It's an edge...how much depends on the details.
1. Ring experience and conditioning helps maximize your physical attributes. Together your attributes and conditioning affect your potential.
2. Ring experience helps overcome your fear of contact. This is critical to facing the adrenal load.
3. The more tested, trained, automatic techniques in your repertoire, the better you'll respond given the adrenaline flood.
4. Does your training include bridging to weapons, something that is usually a different planet from ring work...and may be decisive.
I agree with Deaf's comments above about where you are if you are so flat-footed that you didn't see anything coming.
1. Ring experience and conditioning helps maximize your physical attributes. Together your attributes and conditioning affect your potential.
2. Ring experience helps overcome your fear of contact. This is critical to facing the adrenal load.
3. The more tested, trained, automatic techniques in your repertoire, the better you'll respond given the adrenaline flood.
4. Does your training include bridging to weapons, something that is usually a different planet from ring work...and may be decisive.
I agree with Deaf's comments above about where you are if you are so flat-footed that you didn't see anything coming.
blindsage
Master of Arts
Too many assumptions to have to make to answer this question. How you train is what matters, not the system or style.
I've been punched in the face training with a Wing Chun sifu, does that not count as learning how to take a hit or practicing under pressure just because it's 'traditional'?
During medium contact sparring I've had a female Kajukenbo instructor half my size (literally) toe kick me in the kidney with a kick I never saw coming, is that not 'real' preparation for SD because it's not MMA?
My school regularly works on mulitple attacker scenarios, is that not good for SD because the style is 'traditional' and not we're not slugging it out in the ring when we do it?
I've been punched in the face training with a Wing Chun sifu, does that not count as learning how to take a hit or practicing under pressure just because it's 'traditional'?
During medium contact sparring I've had a female Kajukenbo instructor half my size (literally) toe kick me in the kidney with a kick I never saw coming, is that not 'real' preparation for SD because it's not MMA?
My school regularly works on mulitple attacker scenarios, is that not good for SD because the style is 'traditional' and not we're not slugging it out in the ring when we do it?
Thats not an easy question to answer, remember there are different types of violence, for social violence any kind of contact fighting sport will prepare you to apply those techniques against another human being especially since social violence is a competition of sorts. Now criminal or asocial/combative violence thats a different story...
BLACK LION
Black Belt
BLACK LION
Black Belt
The question IS easy to answer... I have to swallow my ego, pride and ignorance so I can be ultimately honest with myself.
If I am trained to compete in the ring in a sanctioned , convwentional manner then I am not the wild animal that I need to be to face a threat willing to do whatever it takes to put me down... It is not about him trying to win but them having predatory dominance over thier perceived prey...
If you I not train unconventionally and asymetrically to be as unfair as possible and likewise train to maintain predatory dominance over any would be threats then I am not repared to face the acutality that is seeping around in the shadows out there. I would be grossly unprepared and lacking necessary tools to end it the way it needs to be ended.
Destiny favors choice, not chance so leave nothing to uncertainty or coincidence... You do not have to risk your life in order to fight for it especially if you are prepared to face the worst of the worst.
If I am trained to compete in the ring in a sanctioned , convwentional manner then I am not the wild animal that I need to be to face a threat willing to do whatever it takes to put me down... It is not about him trying to win but them having predatory dominance over thier perceived prey...
If you I not train unconventionally and asymetrically to be as unfair as possible and likewise train to maintain predatory dominance over any would be threats then I am not repared to face the acutality that is seeping around in the shadows out there. I would be grossly unprepared and lacking necessary tools to end it the way it needs to be ended.
Destiny favors choice, not chance so leave nothing to uncertainty or coincidence... You do not have to risk your life in order to fight for it especially if you are prepared to face the worst of the worst.
** Posting a reply before reading what others have posted, so I apologize if redundant. **
No. It does not.
Now, does the cardio carry over to your self defense? Yes.
Can a technique be translated to the real world? Yes.
But directly preparing for the Rules of the Ring means you are preparing to operate/spare/"fight" by a known set of rules, so those rules limit your options and mind set.
Great thread MJS!
Cardio, attributes, the ability to take and deliver contact and more is just some of what ring sports can give you. Could this be an edge in a violent encounter? Certainly! However, none of the violence I have ever been involved with through work of course was ever like when I had been in a martial related match. No, in general it was quicker, more sudden and violent without the time to prepare, etc. So the answer is possibly a yes or maybe a no as in that particular moment it will come down to the individual and their ability to take care of business and make their skill sets work!
Cardio, attributes, the ability to take and deliver contact and more is just some of what ring sports can give you. Could this be an edge in a violent encounter? Certainly! However, none of the violence I have ever been involved with through work of course was ever like when I had been in a martial related match. No, in general it was quicker, more sudden and violent without the time to prepare, etc. So the answer is possibly a yes or maybe a no as in that particular moment it will come down to the individual and their ability to take care of business and make their skill sets work!
Chris Parker
Grandmaster
Hi,
This is really not an easy question to answer, I'm afraid Black Lion. While I appreciate the answer you gave, you missed a major part of the question, which MJS cunningly hid in the thread title. The full question is "How well do you feel that ring fighting prepares you for a confrontation in the real world?" And that opens itself up to many other questions, most obviously "what kind of confrontation?"
But before I get to that, I would like to cover a little more ground first. We have established that what we are talking about is MMA-style ring fighting (I'm noting that this is distinct from the training itself, but I feel that the two go together... after all, someone is not likely to enter an MMA bout without having some training in preparation, so I'll mention that as well), so we'll examine that a bit first.
When it comes to MMA-style competition, there are some very substancial differences between it and a real violent encounter, leading to very different training methods, and both having very different aims. That obviously then leads to certain approaches, strategies, and tactics that are geared up towards success in the ring, rather than in a self defence situation. This, of course, doesn't mean that they cannot work in an SD situation, just that that is not what they are geared for.
These include, but are not limited to, working within a specific rule-set (which can train you to miss certain openings, or look for inappropriate actions/techniques), training for long engagements (multiple rounds, which can lead to an expectation of having time to establish rhythms,, wear someone down etc, with the focus of a single opponent), looking for "scoring" techniques (knockouts, submissions, point-scoring kicks and strikes, lending to the tactic of wanting to stay engaged in a situation, rather than looking for the option of an escape), and the obvious expectation of a single opponent, well trained in a similar skill set to the one you have trained in and are using, with the opponent similarly limited.
The more the training is geared towards competition, the further away from self defence it will be. The techniques may be able to be utilised, but the training will dictate the response you experience under pressure. And, while the techniques may indeed be highly effective, the tactics may be not ideal, and could limit the effectiveness of the techniques themselves.
To show what I mean by that, we'll go through the way both an MMA fight happens, and a violent assault (in this case, just a random drunken situation at a bar).
An MMA fight and a SD encounter have very different timetables. The timetable for MMA involves a period of time general preparation (regular training in a range of skills suited to the environment expected, a competitve encounter with specific rules and expected technical considerations), and then a period of specific preparation (usually geared towards a certain known opponent, who's approach, tactics, methods, and preferences can be studied and prepared for). When it comes to the fight itself, the timing is pre-determined (you know when it will start, and where, and against who), and you usually get a certain amount of time for the pre-fight (during which you can mentally and emotionally prepare, as well as physically, and could be half an hour or more), then the fight itself, which is typically also determined in length (say, 3 x 5 minute rounds), and then there is a managed post-fight (with the physical and mental aspects often managed by people around you). Finally, there is the ability to then rest, taking time off training, as you will know if you have another fight coming up, and when it is, so you can determine how long to take off.
An SD encounter, on the other hand, if we assume training (hey, it is a martial arts forum....), then there is any amount of time for general preparation (ideally covering far greater range than the limited aspects of any competitive system, including escape tactics and more), which could be anything from a few minutes to years, or decades. Specialist preparation is usually no more than you simply seeing the guy get angry, or maybe noticing a few pre-fight triggers (if you are lucky...), and that obviously also covers the pre-fight. The duration of the encounter is unknown, as are a large number of other aspects, such as number of people, weapons, aspects of the environment (unless you are there very frequently), and more. And the post fight is rarely managed in any way, you may be injured, you will certainly experience the drain of the post-adrenal dump, during which it is entirely possible that you will be attacked again. And as you never really know when this could happen, you should prepare for it again as soon as you are healed enough to.
And the question of what type of encounter you will experience still needs to be addressed. All we have is "a confrontation in the real world", which could be anything from the aforementioned drunken assault, through to a mugging, through to road rage, to an attempted rape, to simple raised tempers which can be verbally defused. Each of these require a different responce, and with some of them the hardwired MMA response is, well, irresponsible. The need to stay and engage is not advised, knocking out someone who is yelling but not attacking (if they don't show signs of escalating) can be assault, a mugging, particularly if weapons or groups are involved, can be handled by complying, which can be the smarter way to go (let go of ego there...).
Physically, an MMA-style experience, if the base of your understanding of a fight, will lead you to expect a much bigger opening distance than you will often encounter in an assault, as well as only expecting a single opponent with no weapons (at the least unconsciously, as that will be what you will have taught yourself to expect). So you may think that it is not really helpful at all. However, it has a number of things going for it. Many have already mentioned the experience of being able to give and recieve a hit, and this really shouldn't be underestimated, however there is a far more powerful preparation that MMA gives you. Confidence in a physically violent encounter.
One of the big advantages a street predator has is that they are often experienced in hurting people, or at least having people scared of them, and that gives them the confidence to "ply their trade", as it were. So one of the best ways to be prepared to handle such an encounter is simply to be confident in your own abilities to handle it, and the constant testing of technique and ability in the ring that MMA competitors go through instills that confidence, often in spades. So although the tactics are not ideal, and the techniques may in some situations be ill-advised, the confidence in self that it supplies cannot be discounted. And in that regard it can help prepare you for a real world confrontation very well. Just try to make sure that you don't overstep the situation as required...
Phew, that was a long one....
This is really not an easy question to answer, I'm afraid Black Lion. While I appreciate the answer you gave, you missed a major part of the question, which MJS cunningly hid in the thread title. The full question is "How well do you feel that ring fighting prepares you for a confrontation in the real world?" And that opens itself up to many other questions, most obviously "what kind of confrontation?"
But before I get to that, I would like to cover a little more ground first. We have established that what we are talking about is MMA-style ring fighting (I'm noting that this is distinct from the training itself, but I feel that the two go together... after all, someone is not likely to enter an MMA bout without having some training in preparation, so I'll mention that as well), so we'll examine that a bit first.
When it comes to MMA-style competition, there are some very substancial differences between it and a real violent encounter, leading to very different training methods, and both having very different aims. That obviously then leads to certain approaches, strategies, and tactics that are geared up towards success in the ring, rather than in a self defence situation. This, of course, doesn't mean that they cannot work in an SD situation, just that that is not what they are geared for.
These include, but are not limited to, working within a specific rule-set (which can train you to miss certain openings, or look for inappropriate actions/techniques), training for long engagements (multiple rounds, which can lead to an expectation of having time to establish rhythms,, wear someone down etc, with the focus of a single opponent), looking for "scoring" techniques (knockouts, submissions, point-scoring kicks and strikes, lending to the tactic of wanting to stay engaged in a situation, rather than looking for the option of an escape), and the obvious expectation of a single opponent, well trained in a similar skill set to the one you have trained in and are using, with the opponent similarly limited.
The more the training is geared towards competition, the further away from self defence it will be. The techniques may be able to be utilised, but the training will dictate the response you experience under pressure. And, while the techniques may indeed be highly effective, the tactics may be not ideal, and could limit the effectiveness of the techniques themselves.
To show what I mean by that, we'll go through the way both an MMA fight happens, and a violent assault (in this case, just a random drunken situation at a bar).
An MMA fight and a SD encounter have very different timetables. The timetable for MMA involves a period of time general preparation (regular training in a range of skills suited to the environment expected, a competitve encounter with specific rules and expected technical considerations), and then a period of specific preparation (usually geared towards a certain known opponent, who's approach, tactics, methods, and preferences can be studied and prepared for). When it comes to the fight itself, the timing is pre-determined (you know when it will start, and where, and against who), and you usually get a certain amount of time for the pre-fight (during which you can mentally and emotionally prepare, as well as physically, and could be half an hour or more), then the fight itself, which is typically also determined in length (say, 3 x 5 minute rounds), and then there is a managed post-fight (with the physical and mental aspects often managed by people around you). Finally, there is the ability to then rest, taking time off training, as you will know if you have another fight coming up, and when it is, so you can determine how long to take off.
An SD encounter, on the other hand, if we assume training (hey, it is a martial arts forum....), then there is any amount of time for general preparation (ideally covering far greater range than the limited aspects of any competitive system, including escape tactics and more), which could be anything from a few minutes to years, or decades. Specialist preparation is usually no more than you simply seeing the guy get angry, or maybe noticing a few pre-fight triggers (if you are lucky...), and that obviously also covers the pre-fight. The duration of the encounter is unknown, as are a large number of other aspects, such as number of people, weapons, aspects of the environment (unless you are there very frequently), and more. And the post fight is rarely managed in any way, you may be injured, you will certainly experience the drain of the post-adrenal dump, during which it is entirely possible that you will be attacked again. And as you never really know when this could happen, you should prepare for it again as soon as you are healed enough to.
And the question of what type of encounter you will experience still needs to be addressed. All we have is "a confrontation in the real world", which could be anything from the aforementioned drunken assault, through to a mugging, through to road rage, to an attempted rape, to simple raised tempers which can be verbally defused. Each of these require a different responce, and with some of them the hardwired MMA response is, well, irresponsible. The need to stay and engage is not advised, knocking out someone who is yelling but not attacking (if they don't show signs of escalating) can be assault, a mugging, particularly if weapons or groups are involved, can be handled by complying, which can be the smarter way to go (let go of ego there...).
Physically, an MMA-style experience, if the base of your understanding of a fight, will lead you to expect a much bigger opening distance than you will often encounter in an assault, as well as only expecting a single opponent with no weapons (at the least unconsciously, as that will be what you will have taught yourself to expect). So you may think that it is not really helpful at all. However, it has a number of things going for it. Many have already mentioned the experience of being able to give and recieve a hit, and this really shouldn't be underestimated, however there is a far more powerful preparation that MMA gives you. Confidence in a physically violent encounter.
One of the big advantages a street predator has is that they are often experienced in hurting people, or at least having people scared of them, and that gives them the confidence to "ply their trade", as it were. So one of the best ways to be prepared to handle such an encounter is simply to be confident in your own abilities to handle it, and the constant testing of technique and ability in the ring that MMA competitors go through instills that confidence, often in spades. So although the tactics are not ideal, and the techniques may in some situations be ill-advised, the confidence in self that it supplies cannot be discounted. And in that regard it can help prepare you for a real world confrontation very well. Just try to make sure that you don't overstep the situation as required...
Phew, that was a long one....
Nothing can prepare you for a "real world" confrontation. No class, no style. MMA style training can help, like other things (RBSD, etc) can. The best you can do is simulate, and some things will simulate certain elements better than others will. MMA is great for getting one used to physical demands (mechanical accuracy, getting hit, etc), and RBSD is good for others (pre-fight awareness, non-competition tactics, etc).
Neither one is complete or better than the other. Just different.
Chris Parker
Grandmaster
Hmm, I'm not sure I'd entirely agree with that. I would say that there is nothing that will give you the experience except for the experience itself, but to say nothing prepares you is a little incorrect. That's like saying that all that study doesn't prepare you to be a doctor. So they do prepare you, but the question asked was "How well?" Think of it more like Army boot camp in terms of preparation, it's not exactly the same as being in a warzone, but it is preparation for what you will encounter.
Chris Parker
Grandmaster
No, I am afraid you quoted the opening post verbatim. The first part of the question is the title of the thread. MJS was being sneaky.... That's why it starts with a lower-case "d" for "do". So the entire question as posed is (Thread title) "How well...." (opening post) "do you feel that ring fighting prepares you for a confrontation in the real world?"
