How to defeat a Wrestler

[MJS]

Who said WC/WT is an "unbeatable art"? That's stretching it a bit, since it always depends on the practitioner that applies it. I think it's one of the best self defense arts out there, yes, but nothing is unfallable.

Actually, you kinda gave that impression here.

"As for WC/WT being the ultimate art in my opinion. Well sure"

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/ultimate[1]

d: the best or most extreme of its kind

I never said it was better than Arnis and kali or other weapon based arts, simply that it incorporates weapons as much as anyother balanced or "well rounded" art. Although, I'm finding that alot of people don't get as far in WC/WT to learn the weapons training. Eitherway, the principles are largely the same. A weapon is an extention of your arm, you use it very similar to how you fight open handed, whatever style.

Hmm..IIRC, in past discussions, I had said that many arts cover a wide variety of areas, ie: weapons, ground work, etc. I also suggested that if one wanted to expand, looking at another art would be necessary. That comment is usually met with people saying that their art has it all. My usual reply is I beg to differ.

I don't see as many limitations in WC/WT I guess as other people might. I guess the style or "lineage" of what I'm taught pretty much covers most bases. I do think it's a superior form of self-defense than some other arts, but again, to call it the "ultimate" would be based on preference and speculation. I would call upon WC/WT before anything else I've EVER trained, any other style I've ever worked with in the past.

See above.

For a test of self defense technique do this: take any technique you learn from anywhere anystyle and try to execute it while standing in a door frame, or lying down on the floor in a narrow door frame. Can it be done in that kind of position? With only that much space to work with? If it can't, I wouldn't train it as much. Chunk it.

Well, of course environment is going to dictate what you can/can't do. Let me give this as an example. Many times, people ask if techiques are trained on both the left and right side. So, a tech. that would normally be done for say a right punch, do that same tech. for a left punch. Now, some do this, and some dont. The ones that dont usually say that there're other techs. that address the left, so why bother trying to modify something. So the same can be said about trying to modify a stand up tech for a ground attack. There are specific ground fighting techs. that address a mount escape, so instead of playing around with a stand up tech., I'm going to use one specifically for the ground.

You get attacked for real that's about all the space you may have, and that "what if" senario is better to be prepared for and made comfortable than not, and finding yourself in a "tight spot" just to Only Then find out that your grappling won't work in the hallway to your apartment, or your spinning kick doesn't work between two parked cars, or that you have a hard time lunging deep in the isle of a bus. Bad times to find that out. Self defense isn't for the mats, the ring, or the dojo, it should be designed what it's intended to be used for. The street.

Yup, many times I've said that the goal of SD should be to be able to adapt on the fly and we should be able to deal with the situation presented to us and modify as necessary. So yes, in those tight quarters, we certainly won't be rolling on the ground, but we will be in the standing grappling/clinch range.

 

[MJS]

Been a long time since I saw that fight. Barely saw him tap. Didn't they fight again? oh, well.

AFAIK, that was the only time they fought.

As for fighting at the Gracie's Academy, I sure wouldn't fall for that one. lol! Neutral ground is a MUST, you don't fight anyone on their "turf" unless your a bully, crazy, or just .... There are legal issues to consider too, what if you beat Gracie and he sued you for disturbing his place of business? In Texas that's really serious offense, don't know about other states, but it doesn't seem like a good idea. What if you beat him and his other students and black belts decided to "bano" (gang jump) you right there who's to stop that from happening?

What if we offered the same challenge to BJJ stylists to come to our school and match fight? Would they? I think you'd have the same stalemate, one person saying "no, come to me", the other, "no, YOU come over here." lol!
Neutral ground is the best. A tourney, or such, this would make it fair to all involved.

Did you ever see the long exchange between Emin and Rorion? An offer was made to fight in the UFC, someone backed out because of one reason or another. Another place was suggested, someone backed out. I mean really, if they wanted to fight bad enough, stop the excuses and make it happen.

See, this is why people shouldn't make the claims that their art is the best. Gracie always said, "Anywhere, anyone, anytime" and when people take them up on that, someone comes up with an excuse. People talk crap about Kenpo all the time. Ya know what, I could care less. I don't walk around claiming that its something its not. Does this mean I am ashamed of my art? Of course not. If someone wants to think its something less, thats fine.

 

[Yoshiyahu]

Hey guys we got way off topic...originally the topic was



Never really knew...
Man I never really knew what Wing Chun was before I youtubed it. I mean Ive seen the style just never put a name to it. I love this style of fighting. Too bad there are no schools in my area.


We got to get back on topic here. May we can start up a thread concerning UFC...or add some comments to an old one....


Here is a possible thread that may interest you:

How to defeat a Wrestler:

http://martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=70343

AFAIK, that was the only time they fought.



Did you ever see the long exchange between Emin and Rorion? An offer was made to fight in the UFC, someone backed out because of one reason or another. Another place was suggested, someone backed out. I mean really, if they wanted to fight bad enough, stop the excuses and make it happen.

See, this is why people shouldn't make the claims that their art is the best. Gracie always said, "Anywhere, anyone, anytime" and when people take them up on that, someone comes up with an excuse. People talk crap about Kenpo all the time. Ya know what, I could care less. I don't walk around claiming that its something its not. Does this mean I am ashamed of my art? Of course not. If someone wants to think its something less, thats fine.

 

[Yoshiyahu]

In your opinion what must a Wing Chun Disciple do to make his Kicks Strong and not weak...how should he practice it so it stands out. Whats a good way to develop a Kick that can send a wrestler flying if he is foolish enough to shoot straight in on you.


Also Do you believe Wing Chun can stand against a Wrestler with out playing the wrestlers game?

I absolutely reject the notion that Wing Chun kicks are not powerful . As with everything it depends of the pedigree of the person you are trained by .
Unless you have gone around to every Kwoon in the world and held a kick shield for them it is a bit of a generalisation to say they have no power .
The many branches of Wing Chun are varied and have different ways of doing things , just because you have felt the power of one lineage or even one school and deemed it lacking that might not be the case for every lineage or Kwoon .

Case in point one of the instructors at our school was held up by a bloke at an atm and he hook kicked him in the thigh and broke the bloke's femur ( our hook kick only travels about 3 feet but is amplified by latching the attacker into the kick) I would say that's plenty of power .

The point I'm trying to make is that not all Wing Chun is created equal and in the commercial world we live in people won't spend enough time on the basics as they should to build a solid stance .

Indeed in my own lineage in our Sigungs school in Hong Kong the students don't get taught to kick till after about 4 years , they mostly do chi sau for 5 or 6 hours a night 6 days a week, he requires that their stance is rock solid and they have thorough understanding of Sil Lum Tao form .

Sigung thinks that any one thats been training for less than 10 years is still a beginner . But believe me if you are hit by these people you do not get back up .

Now I ask you what westerners in commercial schools are going to train like that , they expect to learn a new trick every night before they've even mastered the last one and think they should be learning the pole 3 months after they join up , and if they don't get what they want they walk out and go to some charlatan who will give it to them .
End of rant .

 

[mook jong man]

In your opinion what must a Wing Chun Disciple do to make his Kicks Strong and not weak...how should he practice it so it stands out. Whats a good way to develop a Kick that can send a wrestler flying if he is foolish enough to shoot straight in on you.


Also Do you believe Wing Chun can stand against a Wrestler with out playing the wrestlers game?

For strong kicks you have to have a solid base , ie a good stance , develop speed in your kicks by using only the muscles needed to execute the kick , this is achieved by repetition and also you must train power by kicking various types of equipment heavybags , hand held kick shields etc.

In regards to kicking a wrestler I would not recommend it at all , he is already trying to get to your legs , throwing out a kick is just handing it to him on a plate .

Also Do you believe Wing Chun can stand against a Wrestler with out playing the wrestlers game?

It depends on what you define as playing the wrestler's game , I am not governed by any rules so I will do what ever it takes . I have done shootfighting before so I might use techniques from that or I might use Wing Chun.
It depends on what the posture of the attacker is , at waist height , diving for my boot laces , head up or down , face exposed etc , and at what stage I recognise the attack is coming .

 

[Si-Je]

AFAIK, that was the only time they fought.



Did you ever see the long exchange between Emin and Rorion? An offer was made to fight in the UFC, someone backed out because of one reason or another. Another place was suggested, someone backed out. I mean really, if they wanted to fight bad enough, stop the excuses and make it happen.

See, this is why people shouldn't make the claims that their art is the best. Gracie always said, "Anywhere, anyone, anytime" and when people take them up on that, someone comes up with an excuse. People talk crap about Kenpo all the time. Ya know what, I could care less. I don't walk around claiming that its something its not. Does this mean I am ashamed of my art? Of course not. If someone wants to think its something less, thats fine.

Guess they didn't want to fight that bad then.
I'm so tired of the old addage of the "gracie anytime anywhere" open challenge. It's obviously just not true. He wouldn't fight anytime and anywhere in this scenario. Whatever the reason. Emin didn't make that bold statement, so him "backing out" isn't to me isn't a "disgrace" or detriment to his word or character.

Anyways, will try to get a fight sceduled soon, but since these people like to have fighters fight for free or peanuts in pay, this may take us awhile. We have to cover the cost of registering and medical ourselves, and we just don't have it right now. Hubbie's doing this for himself and his love of the art. We've both realized that even if he wins, it won't matter to anyone, they'll have plenty of excuses to downplay his victory over a BJJ, wrestler, or MMA fighter.

 

[Yoshiyahu]

Thankyou for your response very interesting?

For strong kicks you have to have a solid base , ie a good stance , develop speed in your kicks by using only the muscles needed to execute the kick , this is achieved by repetition and also you must train power by kicking various types of equipment heavybags , hand held kick shields etc.

In regards to kicking a wrestler I would not recommend it at all , he is already trying to get to your legs , throwing out a kick is just handing it to him on a plate .


It depends on what you define as playing the wrestler's game , I am not governed by any rules so I will do what ever it takes . I have done shootfighting before so I might use techniques from that or I might use Wing Chun.
It depends on what the posture of the attacker is , at waist height , diving for my boot laces , head up or down , face exposed etc , and at what stage I recognise the attack is coming .

 

[MJS]

Guess they didn't want to fight that bad then.
I'm so tired of the old addage of the "gracie anytime anywhere" open challenge. It's obviously just not true. He wouldn't fight anytime and anywhere in this scenario. Whatever the reason. Emin didn't make that bold statement, so him "backing out" isn't to me isn't a "disgrace" or detriment to his word or character.

Just for clarification, I was not pointing fingers at one particular person. Both sides are just as much to blame for the fight not happening. IMO, it seems like it was alot of the old saying, "All talk, no action."

For your reading enjoyment. Yes, its a long read.

Anyways, will try to get a fight sceduled soon, but since these people like to have fighters fight for free or peanuts in pay, this may take us awhile. We have to cover the cost of registering and medical ourselves, and we just don't have it right now. Hubbie's doing this for himself and his love of the art. We've both realized that even if he wins, it won't matter to anyone, they'll have plenty of excuses to downplay his victory over a BJJ, wrestler, or MMA fighter.

I'm not up to date on the payscale for fighters, but I have to wonder....a newbie to the UFC vs. someone who has been there for a while....who is going to get the higher pay? I mean, I'd think that if you've already proven yourself and are on the level of a Randy or Chuck, you're going to get more, than if you were fighting for the first time in the UFC in the prelim. matches. I mean, even in the real world, you don't get top pay at your job, if you've only been there for a month. You work your way up, you prove yourself and gradually you get your pay raises.

 

[dungeonworks]

Guess they didn't want to fight that bad then.
I'm so tired of the old addage of the "gracie anytime anywhere" open challenge. It's obviously just not true. He wouldn't fight anytime and anywhere in this scenario. Whatever the reason. Emin didn't make that bold statement, so him "backing out" isn't to me isn't a "disgrace" or detriment to his word or character.

How is it not true??? Ever seen any of the "Gracie Jiujitsu in Action" series??? Show me a Wing Chun or another martial artist(s) that step or have stepped up as they have. I'm not talking those of "verbal" record, but those with actual evidence such as the library of video tape that the Gracie's have. Yes, you can go into any of the Gracie Family run dojo's to this day and have a crack at the $10k. They've done it for years and years.

Anyways, will try to get a fight sceduled soon, but since these people like to have fighters fight for free or peanuts in pay, this may take us awhile. We have to cover the cost of registering and medical ourselves, and we just don't have it right now. Hubbie's doing this for himself and his love of the art. We've both realized that even if he wins, it won't matter to anyone, they'll have plenty of excuses to downplay his victory over a BJJ, wrestler, or MMA fighter.

MMA is not the career if you want money. Rashaad Evans just made $130,000 WITH a $60,000 bonus for fight of the night...and that was for taking the 205 lb. belt, with an undefeated 18-0-1 MMA record, and the marketability from a hit reality TV show. Most local MMA events, here in Michigan, they fight for free or in rare cases (fights in the Indian Reserves) under $100 ($700-$1000 if they compete and win a 4-8 man tourney) because in many states, ametuer MMA is all that is legal and because there are not near as many (if any) ametuer regulations.

 

[jarrod]

MMA is not the career if you want money. Rashaad Evans just made $130,000 WITH a $60,000 bonus for fight of the night...and that was for taking the 205 lb. belt, with an undefeated 18-0-1 MMA record, and the marketability from a hit reality TV show. Most local MMA events, here in Michigan, they fight for free or in rare cases (fights in the Indian Reserves) under $100 ($700-$1000 if they compete and win a 4-8 man tourney) because in many states, ametuer MMA is all that is legal and because there are not near as many (if any) ametuer regulations.

KC area you can get $200-$500 your first pro fight IF you fall in with a good sized promotion. hardly good money. most fighters i know get most of their money off of the ticket sales. like DW said, it's not a high paying career.

jf

 

[MJS]

Found these links:
http://www.fighting-mma.com/articles/ufc-its-time-to-pay-up.php

http://www.fighting-mma.com/mma-news/ufc-fighter-salaries.php


There are more out there, which I'm sure would give more info. I just posted the above as an example. Something else to consider...how many times in a year is each person going to fight? If you fight 3 times a year, making $10,000 for each fight...is that enough to survive in todays world? Now, someone like Chuck, who may make 6 figures for each fight...he will probably be better off, but don't forget, he's built himself up, vs. someone who is just getting their feet wet.

 

[dungeonworks]

Found these links:
http://www.fighting-mma.com/articles/ufc-its-time-to-pay-up.php

http://www.fighting-mma.com/mma-news/ufc-fighter-salaries.php


There are more out there, which I'm sure would give more info. I just posted the above as an example. Something else to consider...how many times in a year is each person going to fight? If you fight 3 times a year, making $10,000 for each fight...is that enough to survive in todays world? Now, someone like Chuck, who may make 6 figures for each fight...he will probably be better off, but don't forget, he's built himself up, vs. someone who is just getting their feet wet.

Usually on Sherdog and MMAweekly, they put up salary payouts and list any bonuses for things like Fight of the Night, KO of the Night, Sub of the Night...ect. Usually the UFC doubles the salary for such bonuses capping them at $60k and they do not include sponsors payments, which is where the fighters actually get ahead financially. One overlooked factor to casual MMA fans is that these guys usually have to pay sparring partners and trainers and any medical out of pocket.

Also, to stay on topic and not hijack this thread I would like to make a note on my comments. I am not stating grappling or Wing Chun/Tsun is better or worse. I am saying that their is a lot to learn from BJJ/GJJ that is applicable to most if not all principles of WC/T. To be more speciffic, I think the principles of WC/T can IMPROVE A PLAYERS JIUJITSU. Another gained attribute of combining them is fittness levels which is applicable to any physical conflict. You may have the exception to the rule or freakish WC/T player that has uncanny ability to adapt his/her WC/T and be freakishly ridiculously near impossible to take to the ground altogether, but for a guy like me that was 35 and brand new to WC with experience in a few different styles, I will need a crutch before it is realisticly possible for me to grasp WC concepts to that level. My Sifu's disciple is one of those guys that would fall under "freakish" ability to avoid the ground! LOL He has sensitivity nearing JEDI-LIKE ability! LOL As for Sifu himself, I doubt I would be conscious beyond 3 seconds of my best day and that is saying a lot IMVHO.

 

[jarrod]

Usually on Sherdog and MMAweekly, they put up salary payouts and list any bonuses for things like Fight of the Night, KO of the Night, Sub of the Night...ect. Usually the UFC doubles the salary for such bonuses capping them at $60k and they do not include sponsors payments, which is where the fighters actually get ahead financially. One overlooked factor to casual MMA fans is that these guys usually have to pay sparring partners and trainers and any medical out of pocket.

Also, to stay on topic and not hijack this thread I would like to make a note on my comments. I am not stating grappling or Wing Chun/Tsun is better or worse. I am saying that their is a lot to learn from BJJ/GJJ that is applicable to most if not all principles of WC/T. To be more speciffic, I think the principles of WC/T can IMPROVE A PLAYERS JIUJITSU. Another gained attribute of combining them is fittness levels which is applicable to any physical conflict. You may have the exception to the rule or freakish WC/T player that has uncanny ability to adapt his/her WC/T and be freakishly ridiculously near impossible to take to the ground altogether, but for a guy like me that was 35 and brand new to WC with experience in a few different styles, I will need a crutch before it is realisticly possible for me to grasp WC concepts to that level. My Sifu's disciple is one of those guys that would fall under "freakish" ability to avoid the ground! LOL He has sensitivity nearing JEDI-LIKE ability! LOL As for Sifu himself, I doubt I would be conscious beyond 3 seconds of my best day and that is saying a lot IMVHO.

you're not going to get any sympathy here, dungeonworks! WC is a complete & superior art with nothing to gain by associating with other arts. :roflmao:

jf

 

[Si-Je]

With WC/WT you don't need other arts to balance out you fighting range.
And Wing Chun concepts fitting in with BJJ concepts?!? seriously? Don't swallow that BJJ propoganda.

 

[dungeonworks]

With WC/WT you don't need other arts to balance out you fighting range.
And Wing Chun concepts fitting in with BJJ concepts?!? seriously? Don't swallow that BJJ propoganda.

I disagree....strongly. It is every bit dependent on the practitioner, their skill level, and their physical attributes...and YES, Wing Chun concepts could very well be integrated into the BJJ system as noted by Carlos Gracie Jr. He being somewhat of an expert on the subject, well, I would find it hard to disagree given his pedigree and documented success in NHB/Vale Tudo matches.

 

[MJS]

With WC/WT you don't need other arts to balance out you fighting range.
And Wing Chun concepts fitting in with BJJ concepts?!? seriously? Don't swallow that BJJ propoganda.

"As for WC/WT being the ultimate art in my opinion. Well sure"

"Who said WC/WT is an "unbeatable art"?


So, pretty much you're saying that it is the ultimate art.

 

[GBlues]

With WC/WT you don't need other arts to balance out you fighting range.
And Wing Chun concepts fitting in with BJJ concepts?!? seriously? Don't swallow that BJJ propoganda.

Yeah that's because wing chun/wing tsun, is so well designed to work in kicking range, punching ranges, trapping ( which is what it was actually designed for), and grappling ranges. Makes me wonder why Bruce Lee advocated so much cross training if wing chun has everything anybody will ever need. I mean hell, we should all stop studying our particular styles because she's found the only one that will work perfectly in every situation, and it's WING CHUN! LOL! Sorry I had to go there.

Furthermore this thread has been hijacked numerous times and is grossly off topic. This has nothing to do with how to defeat a wrestler. THis has become a wing chun/wing tsun is so much better than everything else out there, and a no BJJ or mma or this style or that is so much better than wc/wt. GET REAL! If you like it, it works for you, you enjoy it, great! But there are flaws in every style, system and art known to man! If you refuse to believe that then you are blind. Now, the original question again is " How to defeat a wrestler" we have a person who has asked this question, and has received truthfully very few answers or suggestions. So lets get off of the art bashing, and the gracie's did this or didn't do that, and get back on topic. Cause' personally I find for myself that since there are supposed to be some very knowledgeable martial artists on this forum, that I too, might learn something of value. THus far, I ain't learned much! I've learned that BJJ and JJJ from the videos shown look an awful lot alike, now let's see some videos on how beat a wrestler when your not a wrestler.


Please

?

 

[MJS]

Yeah that's because wing chun/wing tsun, is so well designed to work in kicking range, punching ranges, trapping ( which is what it was actually designed for), and grappling ranges. Makes me wonder why Bruce Lee advocated so much cross training if wing chun has everything anybody will ever need. I mean hell, we should all stop studying our particular styles because she's found the only one that will work perfectly in every situation, and it's WING CHUN! LOL! Sorry I had to go there.

Don't be sorry...its the truth.

Furthermore this thread has been hijacked numerous times and is grossly off topic. This has nothing to do with how to defeat a wrestler. THis has become a wing chun/wing tsun is so much better than everything else out there, and a no BJJ or mma or this style or that is so much better than wc/wt. GET REAL! If you like it, it works for you, you enjoy it, great! But there are flaws in every style, system and art known to man! If you refuse to believe that then you are blind. Now, the original question again is " How to defeat a wrestler" we have a person who has asked this question, and has received truthfully very few answers or suggestions. So lets get off of the art bashing, and the gracie's did this or didn't do that, and get back on topic. Cause' personally I find for myself that since there are supposed to be some very knowledgeable martial artists on this forum, that I too, might learn something of value. THus far, I ain't learned much! I've learned that BJJ and JJJ from the videos shown look an awful lot alike, now let's see some videos on how beat a wrestler when your not a wrestler.


Please

?

Hmm..I wouldn't say it drifted that far. I commented earlier in the thread, that the best way to defend or defeat a particular art, would be to study something similar. Want to keep up with a good puncher...work with a boxer. Want to be better at stick and knife....go to the FMAs. Want to be a better grappler....look for Sambo, Judo, or BJJ or even wrestling. As far as the bashing goes....par for the course. Sometimes I have to wonder if people bash something because they know deep down that its really worth something, but are too proud to admit it.

Mike

 

[Si-Je]

I disagree....strongly. It is every bit dependent on the practitioner, their skill level, and their physical attributes...and YES, Wing Chun concepts could very well be integrated into the BJJ system as noted by Carlos Gracie Jr. He being somewhat of an expert on the subject, well, I would find it hard to disagree given his pedigree and documented success in NHB/Vale Tudo matches.

What? What is his "pedigree" in Wing Chun? How is he an "expert" on wing chun? When did this happen? If you want to swallow a clever marketing ploy to get folks to cross-train into BJJ then that's one thing. But, BJJ techniques and "concepts" have nothing to do with WT/WC concepts. Show me how the 5 principles of WC/WT fit with BJJ technique and concepts.

And why would the physical attributes of a Wing Chun student or practitioner have anything to do with their "need" to compensate for these "short comings" with BJJ? Don't tell me the same old stuff about how BJJ is designed for smaller people defending against larger opponents. I totally disagree from experience and being a smaller person. It does not work on larger opponents. Sigh.
I see here the death of Wing Chun espectially in America. If WC/WT practitioners and teachers alike are supplementing their wing chun with BJJ instead of fully teaching Wing Chun this is a crying shame. And a sham.
But, each to whatever crutch needed. You don't believe in the art, fine. I can't change folk's minds in this, ya'll have already decided this is what you want to do.

 

[MJS]

What? What is his "pedigree" in Wing Chun? How is he an "expert" on wing chun? When did this happen? If you want to swallow a clever marketing ploy to get folks to cross-train into BJJ then that's one thing. But, BJJ techniques and "concepts" have nothing to do with WT/WC concepts. Show me how the 5 principles of WC/WT fit with BJJ technique and concepts.

I won't comment on Bruce Lee...I'll save that for someone who could comment better than I. However, as far as the BJJ goes...well, I beg to differ. As I said before when talking about specific techs. I'd rather use a proven escape or counter, instead of trying to figure something out by translating a standup tech to the ground.

And why would the physical attributes of a Wing Chun student or practitioner have anything to do with their "need" to compensate for these "short comings" with BJJ? Don't tell me the same old stuff about how BJJ is designed for smaller people defending against larger opponents. I totally disagree from experience and being a smaller person. It does not work on larger opponents. Sigh.
I see here the death of Wing Chun espectially in America. If WC/WT practitioners and teachers alike are supplementing their wing chun with BJJ instead of fully teaching Wing Chun this is a crying shame. And a sham.
But, each to whatever crutch needed. You don't believe in the art, fine. I can't change folk's minds in this, ya'll have already decided this is what you want to do.

So WC is basically the ultimate art then? Out of curiosity, what is your background with BJJ? How long have you trained in it, and who did you train with? Perhaps its not the art, but the person doing the art. In other words, if you don't have a solid understanding of how to apply something, of course you're going to have issues.