How rules affect style

[skribs]

I came across this video today. It talks about the 19th century style of boxing compared to the 20th century, and how adding padded gloves completely changed the sport. The head becomes a more viable target when you're not worried about breaking your hands. This changes everything. The guard you use is different if you're protecting your head than protecting your body. Your tactics are different if you're headhunting than if you're going for body blows. Some credit the high risk of permanent brain injuries in boxing with the addition of padded gloves to the sport.

What I find interesting is the older stance very much resembles the type of fighting stance you would expect to see in an east Asian martial art. The basic fighting stance we used in our white belt Taekwondo class is a slightly more stylized version of this. I've seen similar stances in Karate videos on youtube. It also resembles the basic fighting stance we would use in Hapkido.

 

[drop bear]

Have you watched modern bare knuckle boxing?

 

[GojuTommy]

modern bare knuckle isn't actually bare knuckle since they still wrap their hands.
minor point, but any way as far as i've heard there indeed have been a lot more serious hand injuries in modern bareknuckle boxing than regular boxing.

modern bare knuckle is still pretty young, and still heavily influenced by regular gloved boxing. if bare knuckle boxing survives for another 20-30 years it will likely not be as head punch heavy as it currently is.

any way, rules heavily effect how styles are taught and trained look at karate and BJJ as great examples. point fighting has had a massive effect on how karate is trained in a LOT of dojos. it's not just the rules, but the interpretation of the rules and how strictly those rules are enforced. in the 70s the contact allowed in point fighting was a lot heavier than it tends to be now.
in BJJ they prided themselves on their level of activeness in competition as what made them so effective, fast forward 20-30 years to today, and you have BJJ gyms completely focused on BJJ competitions and nothing else meaning there's an entire generation, maybe even two now of BJJ practitioners who know nothing but, sit down on your butt and scoot towards your opponent.
competition is important for styles to grow and and to help hone the skills of individuals, but competition eventually also leads to watering down of a style in most cases.

a school that uses competition simply as another form of training tool will likely provide the best all around martial arts education

 

[wab25]

Have you watched modern bare knuckle boxing?

There are two variables in play, not one. The first is whether or not gloves are used. The second is the frequency of fights. If you are fighting 2 to 3 times a year, you have time for your hands to heal between fights. If you are fight 2 to 3 times per week, that is a lot less time for hands to heal.

I suspect that both variables play into the change in stance.

Another factor would be the removal of grappling from boxing.

 

[jks9199]

I've been disappointed in the little bit of modern bare-knuckle I've watched, because they're "just boxing" without gloves. You're not seeing the classical difference in targets, and avoiding hitting the head because you don't have big gloves protecting your hands. I'm not sure how much they're wrapped -- but it seems to have taken the fear of hitting hard surfaces like foreheads away.

With that said -- rules CERTAINLY influence style. The shift in boxing stances is an easy example -- but look at the difference in fighting stance from sport/point karate to kickboxing, and from kickboxing to MMA...

Stance is also shaped by the weapons used, and armor provided. An easy example -- police pistol shooting has, in the last 30 years, moved from modified Weaver stances, with the gun side forward and angled to an isosceles stance with the feet parallel. Why? Body armor. Weaver style stances presented a narrower target, but less coverage. Isocseles stances put the biggest part of the body armor in front. You see the same sort of thing in more classical arts, too.

 

[drop bear]

I've been disappointed in the little bit of modern bare-knuckle I've watched, because they're "just boxing" without gloves. You're not seeing the classical difference in targets, and avoiding hitting the head because you don't have big gloves protecting your hands. I'm not sure how much they're wrapped -- but it seems to have taken the fear of hitting hard surfaces like foreheads away.

With that said -- rules CERTAINLY influence style. The shift in boxing stances is an easy example -- but look at the difference in fighting stance from sport/point karate to kickboxing, and from kickboxing to MMA...

Stance is also shaped by the weapons used, and armor provided. An easy example -- police pistol shooting has, in the last 30 years, moved from modified Weaver stances, with the gun side forward and angled to an isosceles stance with the feet parallel. Why? Body armor. Weaver style stances presented a narrower target, but less coverage. Isocseles stances put the biggest part of the body armor in front. You see the same sort of thing in more classical arts, too.

So you don't think that it was just pugilists talking a big game. Because there was no good way to test it?

And there are differences but they are subtle.

So there are less combinations. Less sitting in the pocket. Generally more movement.

And this is because smaller hands land a bit more efficiently.

Also. Breaking hands hitting the body is common even in glove boxing. Because you miss and bounce your thumb off their elbow. So body punching doesn't necessarily save your hands.

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

So you don't think that it was just pugilists talking a big game. Because there was no good way to test it?

And there are differences but they are subtle.

So there are less combinations. Less sitting in the pocket. Generally more movement.

And this is because smaller hands land a bit more efficiently.

Also. Breaking hands hitting the body is common even in glove boxing. Because you miss and bounce your thumb off their elbow. So body punching doesn't necessarily save your hands.

It took 16 months to rehab my right thumb from exactly this. My left ring knuckle is a tad shorter after two breaks in the fourth metacarpal.

 

[SifuBoza]

It took 16 months to rehab my right thumb from exactly this. My left ring knuckle is a tad shorter after two breaks in the fourth metacarpal.

Wtf you break your fist against somebodys head ahaha nice move

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

Wtf you break your fist against somebodys head ahaha nice move

Reading is fundamental. Give it a shot.

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

Wtf you break your fist against somebodys head ahaha nice move

That hand got that way by touching an untouchable. Im sorry that you are mad because I told you some truth you didn’t want to hear. It’s good for you, much more nutritious than the unadulterated horse pucky you are trying to get people to swallow. If you want to learn real gung fu, I’m here for you. Fair warning, you will get touched.

 

[SifuBoza]

That hand got that way by touching an untouchable. Im sorry that you are mad because I told you some truth you didn’t want to hear. It’s good for you, much more nutritious than the unadulterated horse pucky you are trying to get people to swallow. If you want to learn real gung fu, I’m here for you. Fair warning, you will get touched.

IN kung fu you never use your fists for head. First lesson to learn

 

[drop bear]

Bare knuckle boxing wrap.(probably)

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

IN kung fu you never use your fists for head. First lesson to learn

It didn’t happen that way. Read the earlier posts.

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

IN kung fu you never use your fists for head. First lesson to learn

Learn to read, BEFORE you post. Thumb damaged by hitting elbow when shooting punch to the body.

 

[geezer]

It took 16 months to rehab my right thumb from exactly this. My left ring knuckle is a tad shorter after two breaks in the fourth metacarpal.

That looks nasty!

So looking back at the era of old-time bare-knuckle boxing, the era of John L. Sillivan & Co., think about the consequences of a serious hand injury without modern surgery and physical therapy to rehab ...especially for a tradesman who lived by working with his hands.

Those are factors that might have also contributed to avoiding "headhunting". Just speculation.

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

That looks nasty!

So looking back at the era of old-time bare-knuckle boxing, the era of John L. Sillivan & Co., think about the consequences of a serious hand injury without modern surgery and physical therapy to rehab ...especially for a tradesman who lived by working with his hands.

Those are factors that might have also contributed to avoiding "headhunting". Just speculation.

You should see the other hand. It was pretty early in my martial arts. More than 20 years ago. It works fine. I reduced the fracture myself and wrapped it after. It should have had surgery but I was young and broke so I just straightened it and x rayed it my self at the vet I worked at. I did a decent job because it works. That 4 th metacarpal is very thick because of the large amount of bone callous that built up and down the length of the transverse fracture. It’s about a half inch shorter but no big deal.

 

[geezer]

....It should have had surgery but I was young and broke so I just straightened it and x rayed it myself at the vet I worked at. I did a decent job because it works

At the vet? You must be a total animal!

I'm impressed.

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

At the vet? You must be a total animal!

I'm impressed.

I accept the truth you speak.

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

At the vet? You must be a total animal!

I'm impressed.

I am a Surgical technologist, Hyperbarics tech, veterinary tech, and was a zookeeper. My animal related career is currently on hold in favor of human medicine for purely financial reasons. Exotic animal veterinary medicine (zoo med) is my first career and my first love.

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

At the vet? You must be a total animal!

I'm impressed.

People often think that. I am rather volatile, and am known to be aggressive when challenged. I am in the process(15 years so far)of being trained (tamed) by my wonderful and patient wife who was raised right.