How Rough are 7, 8, 9th dan gradings in Karate and other martial arts?

[Maddogkull]

How Rough are 7, 8, 9th dan gradings in Karate, Kung Fu and other martial arts?? Are they hard?? What kind of stuff goes on when your grading for a black belt that high?

 

[MJS]

How Rough are 7, 8, 9th dan gradings in Karate, Kung Fu and other martial arts?? Are they hard?? What kind of stuff goes on when your grading for a black belt that high?

Most of the time, there is no physical test, but instead, just time in grade, what you've given back, what you've done for the art, etc. IMHO, I dont think its necessary to have a physical test at those levels. If a physical test is given, IMO, it should be a much more technical type test, rather than what you'd see for say 1st degree.

 

[Maddogkull]

What about for the lower levels dan belts. I.E. 2nd, 3rd, 4th,5th, 6th??

 

[searcher]

My Roku-dan test was nothing hard. Mostly forms and technical stuff, but I was young enough to still get down with some hard sparring and I still am.

I have a looooong time before my next test(unless I get to test for my EPAK BB this year).


As far as 1st-5th dan tests, the hardest one, IMO, is the 1st Dan test. It is the most physically demanding and we require several months to prepare a student for the test. I know some don't feel that the test should be any harder than a standard class, but we make it hard to see how the student deals with it. We have been acused of being over the top and even sadistic in our testing process, but it is just what we feel is needed for Dan grading with us. I don't have any problems with different testing procedures, our is just the way we like it.

 

[MJS]

What about for the lower levels dan belts. I.E. 2nd, 3rd, 4th,5th, 6th??

One of my hardest tests was my 1st degree. 2nd was up there, but not as bad. 3rd was more technical. The focus of that test was more of a thinking test than physical.

As far as the 4th, 5th and 6th test...well, obviously I havent made it that far yet, but IMO, once you hit those levels, that is when the time in grade, giving back, etc. should all come into play.

 

[SahBumNimRush]

In my experience of seeing the only 7th dan test, it is primarily about what you have given back to the art. There was a physical test, but it was a technical test more focused on knowledge of the art, not necessarily execution (since my sah bum nim was 62 or so at the time of his 7th dan test). At that age after being a hard fighter and an ex-marine for 40+ plus years, the body takes its toll.

For my last test (5th dan), it was the middle of the road between knowledge meeting the execution of the art. It was an extremely physical test, but the thesis defense (which is part of every black belt test in my association) was much more difficult. I had wrote and submitted a 65 page thesis on my knowledge of our art and what I believe to be the ultimate goals and principles of it.

I have since expounded upon that, and I now have 223 pages. I hope to some day publish it, whether it is only within my association or on a grander scale.

There, that's my .02

 

[SahBumNimRush]

What about for the lower levels dan belts. I.E. 2nd, 3rd, 4th,5th, 6th??

1st Dan is by far the most physically demanding, and less on the mental testing. Many fail their 1st dan test, and we require 1 year minimum between 1st gup and 1st dan, with a minumum of 5-6 months training preparing for the test. Hard sparring, critical grading of forms/techniques, self-defense, and 4 breaks of your choice (adult males are required to one concrete/cinder block). The thesis defense is very basic, what does Tae Kwon Do mean to you, and what have you learned from your short time studying it (minumum of 3 pages).

2nd Dan is equally as physically demanding, but a bit easier since you've already went down this road once before with your 1st dan test. The breaking requirements go up a bit, and the thesis defense starts getting a bit harder.

3rd Dan is also as equally demanding as those before it, and the breaking again gets more difficult and you are expected to have both hand to hand and weapon self defense techniques to demonstrate (usually against a knife). The thesis topic now shifts to a specific topic of your chosing to expound upon.

4th Dan starts becoming more mental of a test and less of a physical one, although it is still a very phsyical test. The thesis topic now shifts to how to contribute to the art plus expounding upon one specific topic of your chosing about the art.

I believe I already described my 5th dan test, but to give some more detail to it.. . All 14 forms performed, some backwards and forwards, starting from one technique of the examiners chosing (telling you the form name) and you are expected to either finish it to the end or reverse it back to the beginning. The purpose of this is for the ability to instruct. If you are conducting a class of 30-50 students you have to be able to see a particular movement that is out of place, sometimes out of the corner of your eye. You need to understand the forms inside and out, forwards and backwards to have a compitent ability to teach, not just conduct. Self defense hand to hand, then I defended against an attacker armed with ssang bong (double short stick) empty handed. Sparred a few different bb's, then performed my breaks 6 stations all were 3 board breaks and a side kick speed break through 10 inches of concrete. Then of course after you are physically exhausted, you are tested on your mental faculties.. . Kwan Jang Nim always tries to twist your words on you, seeing if you dig yourself a hole and can climb back out of it. And give your thesis dissertation.

This is only the way our association examines their students, I do not know how others are graded or what their tests are like. As a rule there is a year added as minimum time served between each dan rank (1 year minimum from 1st gup to 1st dan, 2 years minimum from 1st dan to 2nd dan, 3 years minimum from 2nd dan to 3rd dan, etc.. .)

 

[ralphmcpherson]

What about for the lower levels dan belts. I.E. 2nd, 3rd, 4th,5th, 6th??

I have my first dan grading in june. I will have to demonstrate self defence against 4 or 5 attackers , I will spar someone of my rank followed by someone 1st dan or higher, I have a timber break which is a jump spinning hook kick to break thick timber boards and I have to do koryo form and then the GM will call my previous forms at random and I have to do them ( he may only call a couple but I dont know which ones so I have to have all of them up to scratch).

 

[dbell]

When I took my 8th Dan testing in Aikido a couple of years ago, it was a two week test, in which my grading panel had me teach students at each stage, new student up to someone that just received 2nd Dan, what they would need to get the next belt. The testing started with me demoing every move, by belt level and explaining what I was doing as I did it. After doing the demos to the panel, I had to fight one person, then two people, then three people, then four people, then five people, etc up to eight people. Don't get me wrong here, you are only fighting one or two at a time at this point, as they will get in each other's way if you are doing it right. They were able to do what ever they wanted, not only Aikido, and I was restricted to Aikido moves. I had to write a dissertation about Aikido and what it meant to me today vs when I started 38 years ago. From what I understand, after I had done all this, the panel (of 5) talked to the students I had just taught over the past two weeks, then sat amongst themselves and talked about my martial past, how I taught there, some of my prior years students that they knew, and who knows what else.

A few days letter I received the Certification...

 

[Grenadier]

At the earlier dan rankings, it's more of a matter of what have you been able to take from the system. Thus, it's important to scrutinize such candidates for promotion, in order to make sure that they've learned something substantial.

At the higher dan rankings, it becomes more of a matter of what you have given back to the system. Many times, higher dan rankings are awarded by the chief instructor of the system, or through a panel of high ranking black belts, with no formal exam.

 

[dbell]

I should probably add that I was probably tested because I had spent the prior 2.5 years in a Friary (I was teaching my Brothers Aikido and Judo though, we didn't have any swords in the Friary, although I was teaching Kendo outside of the Friary...) and prior to that had spent a few years training UNDER a 3rd Dan Aikidokan (what can I say, she had great Ki, and a VERY strong Aikido knowledge base that was from a slightly different school than I have been studying under, we did train each other, but I was the lucky one there!). I think that it was felt I might not be ready for an advancement, but they wanted to see, so I was called to a test, which I apparently passed. Many Aikidokan above 5th Dan are given their advancement from time in "service" based on what they have done, how they teach, and their understanding of the art.

 

[ATC]

At our school the 3rd Dan test is the most demanding physiclly. After that it becomes more technical and knowledge based. Also after 3rd you better be giving back to the art as well. Giving back may include opening your own school. Or producing a national champion at something. Also helping your community in some way.

I only have one more demanding test left and that is my 3rd Dan test. Just trying to keep the body together long enough to make it to and through that test. Maybe another 2 years away. Body don't fail me now.

 

[GreatLakes]

7th, 8th, and 9th dan gradings are pretty much meaningless.
You don't see fighters in the UFC touting such titles.
They are pretty much McDojo titles used in place of a real fight record.

As far as getting those "gradings," the only thing you really need is cash.

 

[seasoned]

7th, 8th, and 9th dan gradings are pretty much meaningless.
You don't see fighters in the UFC touting such titles.
They are pretty much McDojo titles used in place of a real fight record.
As far as getting those "gradings," the only thing you really need is cash.[/quote]


You paint with a wide brush my friend. I will admit there is rank abuse at the higher levels of the dan ranks, but on the other hand there are dedicated martial artists there also. The important thing is that the dedicated ones that have paid their dues, legitimately put the time in, are respected by their peers and their instructor, know, the difference. When one spends a life time in the arts, a lot of changes take place within. When a person starts out training, they don't know where that training will take them, they train for the love of it, or they quit. After many years in the arts, a person should learn that there is more to their rank then just a fighting ability. Granted, that fighting ability should be there, but, one of the changes that needs to take place, is the feeling that you have to prove something to someone. Add humility, respect for people that deserve it, along with a deep seated love for the arts, and it makes the time spent, and the rank bestowed, well worth it. :asian:

 

[Kwan Jang]

For our association, the test for 4th-7th degree (7th is the highest rank we are currently using in our system) is the same. We have a mastery testing every 3-4 years and there are differences between the individual tests, but all testing on any individual test go through the same thing. Also, we are on an every other test rotation for rank promotion, but are expected to go through the test each time it comes up whether we are going up for rank or not. For example: I tested for 5th in 2000, went through the test in 2003 as "support team", tested for 6th in 2006, went through it again as "support team" last year and will test for 7th on the next mastery. ("If one tests, we ALL test").

We are kept to a strict mandatory training and nutrition program for a year prior to the test which we must document in both our journals and online. This training includes cardio, weight training as well as working our martial skills. One of our other 6ths, Tom Callos, took the idea of the training our pre-test training phase and created his own "Ultimate Black Belt Test" to market to MA school owners, though Tom did throw in some of his own stuff as well. If you look on his UBBT website, you can get an idea of how the training requirements are, though much of the community involvement and sensetivity stuff is Tom's.

The actual test is 5 days and 4 nights run along the format of "Hell Week" in BUDS for the Navy SEALS. We are kept moving through most of this with very little food or sleep. The technical part of my 6th degree test included mastering 14 -boxing defenses,7-double stick strikes, 6-sticks and kicks, Kick boxing patten, Kick boxing combinations, Kick boxing 12-corner block and counter, Lock and block stick, Lock and block stick and knife, Stick flow, Counter against the flow, Counter w/ the flow, 9-count sinawalli, 5-Knife disarms, Knife against knife (using shock knives), Knife counter thrust, CDT gun disarms, Bo staff fighting form, Grappling pattern, Grappling defenses, NHB/MMA fighting pattern, Choo Moo 4, Free sparring Boxing, Free sparring Grappling, Free sparring Kickboxing, Free sparring MMA/NHB (judged/graded by Bob Cook, the head MMA coach at AKA and Frank Shamrock, 5x UFC champion. BTW, on last years test, the MMA sparring was nearly continuous for over an hour), Adrenal Stress challenge, and mastering our teaching methods.

The rest of the testing is to test our mastery of ourselves and to push us past all of our comfort zones under extreme conditions. These have included numerous team building exercises (often with either logs or way up in the air- I hate heights), 18,000 ft. tandem jumps, sweat lodges, firewalks, ect. We've trained with SWAT teams, Marine forced recon, SEALS, and did some of their simulations over the years. My instructors work with and have helped train these guys at various times and we have been allowed on bases for our training that is not the norm for civillians. It's one thing to be a bad man under peak conditions (welcome to third degree), it's another to be able to keep your composure when swimming with your hands tied (the water is a great equalizer) or when you are being hit with tear gas. Especially when you have had very little food or sleep and haven't bathed in several days.

While some schools/orgs. have these rankings as merely a token test, for us it is a chance to grow and to continue pushing ourselves beyond what we thought was our limits. I'm 45 and my instructor is 62 and he is right in there going through this with us and with the kids in their twenties. BTW, KJN Ernie gets in there and spars and rolls on a regular basis with many top MMA fighters. Bob (and Frank used to for several years) has taught a MMA class at our headquarters school for years and often brings in some of the AKA fighters to use our cage and train with us. In the sparring, we'll pair up pretty much by size age and gender, but the testers in their fifties and sixties are doing the same things as those in their twenties and thirties. Sometimes the sneaky, older ones will still keep the younger ones in their place.

Regarding Great Lakes comments, while ther are "belt factories" and McDojos out there who greatly elevate rank that isn't deserved, my guess is that the majority who have these ranks have done quite a bit to earn them. I know that our people have worked for it. Some may argue that we require too much, but for us, the growth process in achieveing it is what it is all about. Personally, I wouldn't have it any other way. To me, it wouldn't really mean all that much if it were a token test or just handed to me because I've been training for 35(+) years.

 

[MJS]

7th, 8th, and 9th dan gradings are pretty much meaningless.
You don't see fighters in the UFC touting such titles.
They are pretty much McDojo titles used in place of a real fight record.

As far as getting those "gradings," the only thing you really need is cash.

So, the UFC is the measuring ground for all in the martial arts? LMAO! Please tell me you're not a UFC/MMA nutrider, here to derail this thread.

See, technically this can work both ways...the TMAs have belt ranks, while the UFC has belts. And BTW...what exactly does a fight record have to do with anything? IMO, doesnt mean much. All it means, is that on a set day, at a set time, with a pre-determined opponent, that one person won and one person lost.

Edit: Lets not derail this thread with stuff like this. If you want to talk about the UFC, titles and records, please start a new thread.

 

[Ken Morgan]

The pass rate for 8th dan for Kendo in the ZNKR is about 1%. For iaido, if memory serves me right, it’s about 7%.

 

[The Last Legionary]

7th, 8th, and 9th dan gradings are pretty much meaningless.
You don't see fighters in the UFC touting such titles.
They are pretty much McDojo titles used in place of a real fight record.

As far as getting those "gradings," the only thing you really need is cash.

Please tell me you're not one of those brain damaged gym rats who think the UFC is a real fight. Lets see you try your mad matt skillz against someone with a knife, gun or bat.

I smell something, smells like troll.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

How Rough are 7, 8, 9th dan gradings in Karate, Kung Fu and other martial arts?? Are they hard?? What kind of stuff goes on when your grading for a black belt that high?

Generally, once you get past about fourth or fifth dan in most arts, the gradings have more to do with what you have done for the art rather than what the art as done for you. Many systems have no new material past about fourth or fifth; just a new form at each grade, and that is about it, though there are exceptions.

Many schools and/or systems introduce weapons curriculum in the dan grades, so the emphasis on the training changes as well.

As a general rule, there are age minimums for high dan grades, so the tests tend not to be geared towards forcing you to show your physical prowess or endurance, but rather about precision and depth of knowledge.

Daniel

 

[Rich Parsons]

7th, 8th, and 9th dan gradings are pretty much meaningless.
You don't see fighters in the UFC touting such titles.
They are pretty much McDojo titles used in place of a real fight record.

As far as getting those "gradings," the only thing you really need is cash.

Hi Great lakes,

How are you?

Could you define what you mean by "Real Fight" Record?


Thanks

****
Edited in:

So, the UFC is the measuring ground for all in the martial arts? LMAO! Please tell me you're not a UFC/MMA nutrider, here to derail this thread.

See, technically this can work both ways...the TMAs have belt ranks, while the UFC has belts. And BTW...what exactly does a fight record have to do with anything? IMO, doesnt mean much. All it means, is that on a set day, at a set time, with a pre-determined opponent, that one person won and one person lost.

Edit: Lets not derail this thread with stuff like this. If you want to talk about the UFC, titles and records, please start a new thread.

MJS, My apologies. I read your post on the second page after I had quoted and posted from the first page. While I am curious to GreatLakes definition maybe it should be a split or separate thread.