How many kata is too many kata?

[tonbo]

Great gravy!!!

I would lean to the side that says that 80 forms is a bit excessive, but I could see that each one might have something to teach.

If you have that many forms in the style, talk to your instructor. See what they apply to, and what the purpose (generally) of each is. Find out if there are "core" forms (i.e., ones that may act as "keys" to some of the other forms). Are any of the forms "short" versions of another, or are multiple forms combined into one of the others? There are many questions to ask, to find out why so many forms are necessary.

My opinion is very much in line with the "general" opinion here. You won't master the forms, even if there are only 5 or 10. You may get really, really good at them, but mastery is waaaaaay out there. Once you find out about your forms, work with your instructor to tailor your forms practice. He/she should have some good advice to help you along.

Above all else, *enjoy* your forms practice. You will get much, much more out of it.

Peace--

 

[Old Fat Kenpoka]

OK, Sorry. You asked for an opinion and I gave it. Don't diss all Kenpo people because of my opinion. Don't try and banish me to an MMA forum because I gave an honest answer...You asked a very general question and I gave a very general response.

I spent 20 years practicing Kata really hard. I did about 25 different forms including 4 weapons forms. One day I woke up and realized I had spent all my time doing forms. Compared with my contemporaries who did not spend as much time on Kata: I couldn't spar as well , I couldn't hit with as much power, and I couldn't execute the techniques against a real opponent as effectively. So, love your katas, but you asked the question and I gave my opinion.

 

[Sauzin]

I spent 20 years practicing Kata really hard. I did about 25 different forms including 4 weapons forms. One day I woke up and realized I had spent all my time doing forms. Compared with my contemporaries who did not spend as much time on Kata: I couldn't spar as well , I couldn't hit with as much power, and I couldn't execute the techniques against a real opponent as effectively. So, love your katas, but you asked the question and I gave my opinion.

I apreciate your opinion. From the sounds of it different people, practicing different kata, show vastly different results. Personally I think a big part is how you practice kata, which is why I brought up this discussion. But your kata, practiced your way, didn't work for you. OK, I respect that, but please understand that kata have worked for melenia for hundreds of thousands of people, that cannot be discounted due to your experiance.

I would lean to the side that says that 80 forms is a bit excessive, but I could see that each one might have something to teach.

I hear you, loud and clear. I have attempted to respectfully ask many of the questions you mentioned of my instructor. From my understanding he seems to think that the more kata you have the more well rounded your art is. He brings in kata that have movements that he likes, and thinks he can't get elsewhere. He also brings in kata that he feels complement or fill in the gaps of areas in the system that he believes are missing. So you've got 18 or so empty hand kata originally, then you've got a sister style and he likes 4 or 5 from that system, then there's his favorite kata from his first style, then there's a couple of kata from a group of Go-Ju guys he used to work out with. And then you’ve got weapons where we start out with about 30 or so then he’ll start working more on one weapon and feel that he doesn’t have a complete complement of techniques with the kata he already has so he’ll add 2 or 3. You times that by about 10 different weapons and you’ve got your extra 20 or 30 kata. Altogether we may be over 80. I currently know 65.

Now please, let me emphasize. I have nothing but the up most respect for my sensei. He has invested years of his time into my training and asked for nothing. He has spent over 30 years studying on Okinawa, and nearly 25 with Secichi Odo. There are very few people in the world who understand and practice Kobudo at the level he does. I seriously doubt there is anyone on the planet who understands more about Odo’s art then he does. So please understand, I mean no disrespect to him. I am simply frustrated at my own limitations and abilities in learning the number of kata he has as a requirement in his system. I wish that I could take 30 (or less) kata and practice the hell out of them, but every time I come to class there’s a different kata he expects me to know. To meet those expectations I fear I will fail in my own to understand and truly know my kata.

 

[Liam Digby]

To try and stay with the original question.

In the system I train (Wado Ryu) the founder, Hironori Ohtsuka, said that nine katas were sufficient, and that the additional kata were just repeating or reinforcing points made in the original nine. Bear in mind that Ohtsuka has own uses for kata application, very different from the normal methodology.

Just incase anyone's interested the katas of Wado Ryu are:
Fundamental nine, Pinans one through to five, Kushanku, Naihanchi, Sieshan, Chinto.

Additional forms:
Bassai, Jitte, Jion, Ni Sei Shi, Rohai, Wanshu. (have I missed one out?)

There were others that Ohtsuka toyed with, which some people claim are the "lost katas of Wado" and there are some organisations trying to reinvent these additional katas, all very interesting I'm sure, but from my angle the first nine are more than enough. I am against the idea of collecting forms like boyscout badges.

 

[tonbo]

Sauzin:

Personally, I think that 80 katas is a bit excessive, as I have said. I can see why your instructor has included all of them--you have explained that point pretty well. Also, I do see that you have plenty of respect for your instructor, and don't wish to put him down in any way.

The problem is that training, no matter how rigid or formalized, is still an individual accomplishment at heart. No one else can make you better but YOU. In a great sense, your instructor has set a tone for your training: he has incorporated all these different katas because of things that *he* sees as missing. He is building his art from his own foundations. Nothing wrong with that--he sees that there are areas that he wants to build up, and is taking pains to build those areas.

Now comes *your* training. The art itself is rigid--your instructor makes the curriculum what it is. The expression of the art is fluid and, above all else, *personal*. That many katas may not work for you, and you may not get out of the katas the same thing that your instructor does.

Currently, I have about 14 katas/forms that I am currently "working" with: 10 I have down pretty well, 1 I am mostly through with (different style) and getting past the "mechanical" stage, 1 I am in the stages of learning the first few moves, and 2 that I am more or less dabbling in (with an eye on seriously working on them when I get the others down more). This is plenty for me to handle; once I get basics down, or the "theme" of the kata, it becomes easier. However, I think I would go nuts quickly if I had to learn a new kata every other week. Burnout would happen way too fast.

Again, I would recommend talking with your instructor. Tell him about your frustration. Let him know that you mean no disrespect and appreciate what he is doing with the art, but that you are getting overwhelmed and would like to concentrate on certain forms. My guess is that he will be understanding. You are not on his level, and shouldn't be held to his performance standards. He should be willing and able to help you out.

I can appreciate your frustration--I've been there myself, when I had only a few katas to learn!! The way I see it, if you can't have fun with your katas, and play with them while you work them (emphasizing differing speeds, alternating power strikes, etc.), then you are not truly getting the depth you need. (Again...PERSONAL OPINION!!!). Also, you should be aware of the "1000 vs. 10" philosophy: "I don't fear the 1000 techniques you have practiced only once; I fear the 10 techniques you have practiced 1000 times" (yeah, paraphrased). Do you really learn all that much from 80 katas brushed over, or do you learn more from 8 katas you have worked on for months/years? Yep, you already know the answer, grasshopper.....

One last thing.....since your instructor is bringing in katas from other styles: has he thought about putting together his own forms that would incorporate the things he feels are missing from his style? Doing so, I would think he could distill down the number of katas......but then again, that's just me......

Good luck!!

Peace--

 

[RyuShiKan]

Originally posted by Old Fat Kenpoka
I spent 20 years practicing Kata really hard. I did about 25 different forms including 4 weapons forms. One day I woke up and realized I had spent all my time doing forms. Compared with my contemporaries who did not spend as much time on Kata: I couldn't spar as well , I couldn't hit with as much power, and I couldn't execute the techniques against a real opponent as effectively. So, love your katas, but you asked the question and I gave my opinion.

You intentionally gave what you knew to be a volatile response that was really not even part of the question.

If all you did was dance around then yes……you wasted your time.
Your teacher should have showed you the applications of kata and how to practice them on a partner with realistic timing, however, certain applications you can’t use for “sparring” if you are wearing gloves………so I am guessing your teacher didn’t know the applications or maybe just didn’t want to show you………..I would be willing to be he most likely didn’t know them.

 

[Old Fat Kenpoka]

Your guess is wrong. My instructor knew and understood the techniques and he taught them. Actually, I found your post a rather insulting personal attack. But I will respond with a thoughtful logical argument because my original post was an honest opinion based on informed experience.

Practicing techniques from Kata is one of the things that Kenpo does exceptionally well. Most Kenpo katas are self-defense techniques strung together. Every technique in these Kenpo katas is practiced full speed, hard contact on an Uke. We practice variations and what-ifs for each technique as well. The techniques are often taught several belts before the kata is learned. There is no style I have ever heard of that practices as many techniques with as much contact as Kenpo. And, there is no style I have ever heard of that practices their Kata techniques with as much intent as Kenpo.

How can you reasonably debate the merits of 10 vs 20 vs 50 vs 80 Katas when you don't know if Sauzin's instructor is providing the instruction you claim I missed? You can only legitimately ask Sauzin the same question you've just asked me and then, based on your criteria, say that either all or none are valuable based on the instructor's teaching method.

My original post was a direct answer to the original question: How many Katas are too many? Since techniques can and should be practiced outside of the kata as done in Kenpo and in my training, why bother to learn the katas at all? If the student can already do the techniques in the air, and on a partner, then what is the value of memorizing and practicing Kata solo? I'll tell you again. The benefit is the same as the benefit of Tai Chi. And, Martial Arts students can spend their time training to fight or training to do Tai Chi.

 

[RyuShiKan]

Originally posted by Old Fat Kenpoka
Your guess is wrong. My instructor knew and understood the techniques and he taught them. Actually, I found your post a rather insulting personal attack. But I will respond with a thoughtful logical argument because my original post was an honest opinion based on informed experience.

If I was wrong then we wouldn’t be having this discussion.

Originally posted by Old Fat Kenpoka
Practicing techniques from Kata is one of the things that Kenpo does exceptionally well.

I see so now you say Kempo practices techniques from kata well……..before you said it was a waste of time.

Originally posted by Old Fat Kenpoka
If the student can already do the techniques in the air, and on a partner, then what is the value of memorizing and practicing Kata solo? I'll tell you again. The benefit is the same as the benefit of Tai Chi

I see……….and just what do you think the benefits, or should I say the lack of, of doing Tai Chi are?

 

[Old Fat Kenpoka]

Ryushikan: I don't want to fight on this forum. I do want to debate the merits of Kata with regard to the original question as to how many is the right amount.

Kata should not be the method for teaching technique. In many martial arts, Kata techniques are a supplement to the basic curriculum and training practice of the art. The technique only exists in terms of the Kata and does not exist separately on its own merits. Technique instruction needs to focus on application exactly as you argued in your earlier post.

Part of our argument is a chicken and egg question. Which came first: the kata or the technique?

Often, the Kata is taught and then the student learns the application. I think this is backwards. The student should learn the technique first. Then if the student wants to learn the mental discipline and moving meditation of Kata then so be it.

If the student already knows the technique and its applications, and the student wants to learn self-defense or fighting, then the practice of Kata is a waste of time.

So, Kata for me is a waste of time: I already know the techniques and how to execute them and I should have spent more time increasing my power and improving my sparring.

 

[RyuShiKan]

Originally posted by Old Fat Kenpoka
I do want to debate the merits of Kata with regard to the original question as to how many is the right amount.

Really? Considering you started this line of dialogue I got the impression this is where you wanted to take it………..

 

[chufeng]

And, Martial Arts students can spend their time training to fight or training to do Tai Chi.

Interesting...how is it that you infer "doing" TaiJi is a waste of time?

Perhaps your instructor knew the applications...and showed them to you...and had you practice them...WHY then did you have difficulty applying them in "sparring?" Because people don't spar like they do one-step? OK...Why don't people spar like they do one-step? Because they are afraid of getting hit.

There are three kinds of attacks...the pattycake, tentative, "let's see what he does if I throw this" stuff...the drive straight through and "damn the topedoes" type attack...and the set-up...

The application from kata will work against all three types...if you understand it.

...and there is the rest of what martial ways are about...it goes beyond fighting...if all you want to do is mix it up....then go for it.

But Martial Ways have so much more to offer than fighting skills.

:asian:
chufeng

 

[yilisifu]

Absolutely! And Taiji IS designed for actual fighting, although too many people nowadays just practice it for health and don't learn the real art. Yilichuan practicioners are able to actually use their Taiji in unrehearsed one-step AND fighting.

It's just a matter of training the right way.

 

[tonbo]

If doing kata is a waste of time, since you are only doing your moves in the air, is practicing the moves in the air also a waste of time? Should you not bother working on techniques unless you have a body present that you can apply techniques to?

I would say that kata does indeed have merit. No, you won't get the full benefit of feeling how a strike lands, or judging your power. However, you *can* work on balance, focus, stances, proper form, and flow (to name a few things). Katas are also good for working breathing and other health-related aspects (which I assume is the reference to Tai Chi).

There are a variety of ways to practice your katas, and each can teach you *something*, if done right. I would further agree with what's been said about individual practice......if you are just making motions in the air, you aren't going to learn or train *anything* with your katas, and you are better off not doing them.

And Tai Chi? Well, I think that Tai Chi suffers a horrible misconception: that it is a glorified form of moving Yoga. It isn't. Yes, it is generally performed slowly and in a meditative fashion; however, if you have ever seen it applied full speed and with internal energy, it can be just as devastating as any other martial art. Remember: Tai Chi was slowed down intentionally; it was not created as a slow art.

Just a few general thoughts.....as always, your mileage may vary.

Peace--

 

[Sauzin]

Alright I would just like to address a few things here.

I totally understand where the kenpo guy is coming from in regards to American kenpo and like styles. Styles relating to the three primary forms of Okinawan karate (Shuri-te, Tomori-te, and Naha-te) have a different perspective on kata then most Ed Parker kenpo groups. Okinawan kata aren’t just a combination of techniques with specific applications; they are a study of body movement and transitioning. Interpretations of the movements found in kata and their transitions can be used to form an endless number of specific techniques. A punch in a kata is not just a punch. It’s a block, a throw, a grab, a pull, and in some cases that involve a step it is also a kick. With this many interpretations of a punch you can just imagine what they are doing with other movements, and I say “movements” because you really can’t single out just techniques in a kata as it negates the transition in-between which is where the real treasure in kata lies. Our techniques come from kata but they are not in kata. So you see when you come to a karate forum and talk kata, you’re really talking an entirely different language then what you practiced.

In regards to the question of if I have been taught applications. Yes from a very early rank, from a very practical perspective. That is one of many things I really admirer about my Sensei. His real world understanding of how combat mechanics work, which he is always more then happy to demonstrate. While he understand the distraction “what if”s can cause in a classroom he is always happy to entertain the willing and is never threatened by a challenge to prove that something works.

The amount of time we spend in class on application is about a 50/50 spit with kata. This is great for my art, but at the same time means that I really have to invest the time outside of class if I want to run through all of my kata and keep them up to date. Also with so many kata my teacher struggles to get as many corrections in with the time he has as possible, and then gets very frustrated when some of them are forgotten due to the number of different kata and different corrects he goes over in one class. It’s a bit hard to keep straight when we’re talking 10 or 15 different kata each class. By the time you’re being corrected on your 4th or 5th kata things start to get jumbled.

Last night at class my instructor made some remarks that inferred that it looked like I had just been taught a couple of kata I was running through. Problem is I learned them 3 years ago.

-Sauzin

 

[Nightingale]

Kenpo is pretty much one kata and one or two sets (more of a collection of strikes than an actual form) per belt, and this is enough for me. The sets and forms get more difficult as your skill increases, of course.

 

[chufeng]

but at the same time means that I really have to invest the time outside of class if I want to run through all of my kata and keep them up to date.

In YiLi, it is an EXPECTATION to work on things outside of scheduled class time. When you go to college, you don't just spend the time in class learning; you are expected to do at least 2 to 4 hours for every hour of class time...the same is true of martial arts...if you simply go to class and train there, but invest none of your own time outside of class, you'll never get where you want to be.

:asian:
chufeng

 

[RyuShiKan]

Kata is the vehicle which you use to understand technique........then apply it.

Anyone that is taught kata is just dancing or kicking and punching in the air should change their instructor.

 

[yilisifu]

Amen.

 

[D.Cobb]

Originally posted by Old Fat Kenpoka
One Kata is too many if your training time is limited. What do you get by studying Kata? I'll tell you. You get good at Tai Chi. I spent too much time practicing and teaching Kata. I should have spent all my time conditioning, working the bag, and sparring. So should you.

Can you say TROLL?

 

[RyuShiKan]

Yes.............and I can say uninformed too.