How many kata is too many kata?

[Sauzin]

I have a relatively simple to ask but in depth to answer, question and I would appreciate any comments or reasoning related to it. How many different kata (either empty handed or kobudo) do you think it is necessary to practice to gain their maximum benefit? Do you think there is a point where a person could know or practice too many different kata? Let’s assume the normal time constraints of a single working male. For example do you think 13 empty handed kata is a good number or perhaps 4, or perhaps 32? With Kobudo do you think 50 is appropriate, or 10? What is your reasoning?

Thank-you in advance for your insight and time.

-Paul Holsinger

 

[Old Fat Kenpoka]

One Kata is too many if your training time is limited. What do you get by studying Kata? I'll tell you. You get good at Tai Chi. I spent too much time practicing and teaching Kata. I should have spent all my time conditioning, working the bag, and sparring. So should you.

 

[kenmpoka]

Originally posted by Sauzin
I have a relatively simple to ask but in depth to answer, question and I would appreciate any comments or reasoning related to it. How many different kata (either empty handed or kobudo) do you think it is necessary to practice to gain their maximum benefit? Do you think there is a point where a person could know or practice too many different kata? Let’s assume the normal time constraints of a single working male. For example do you think 13 empty handed kata is a good number or perhaps 4, or perhaps 32? With Kobudo do you think 50 is appropriate, or 10? What is your reasoning?

Thank-you in advance for your insight and time.

-Paul Holsinger

It depends on who you're teaching. What is the purpose, Competition or self defense?
In order to choose a few, first you have to study them, find out the bunkai and then choose a few to avoid repetition. This goes for empty hand and Kobudo. Catch 22!

 

[RyuShiKan]

Originally posted by Old Fat Kenpoka
One Kata is too many if your training time is limited. What do you get by studying Kata? I'll tell you. You get good at Tai Chi. I spent too much time practicing and teaching Kata. I should have spent all my time conditioning, working the bag, and sparring. So should you.

Once again the un-informed, narrow minded, uneducated “anti-kata” faction rears it’s head.
The poster of this thread was not asking whether kata had worth or not but how many kata is enough.
So why don’t you go over to the kenpo section or MMA section if you want to bring up that debate.

 

[angrywhitepajamas]

depending on what it is that you want to learn from the style. Kata can be a method of training your self in the varyations of the basic movements while still having a solid core set of well practiced movements. I my self have only enough time to practice eight kata a day with quality. But My focus is more upon depth of knowledge rather that the breadth (ie my memory is poor so I would be lost if there was 34 kata in a particular style).
Don't get me wrong breadth of knowledge is good, but its just not my thing.

thanks for your time and now I gotta go back to practice.

 

[Jill666]

Jeez I'll work on one or two at most, and give the others a run-through.

I probably have about 30 (including weapons) which is too many- I feel I've studied six years and if I never learned another kata in the next six years I wouldn't run out of material. There's a boatload of lessons waiting to be discovered in all those forms.

Depending where you are in your study- I lean toward lucky thirteen.

My opinion. If you do all that other stuff- sparring, lifting, studying distance, timing, strikes, pressure points, gravity, etc. I really think 13 is plenty to go back to time and again.

Ok, I'm wide open- I picked a number, now bring it!

:samurai:

 

[Matt Stone]

All are One.

Firstly, you shouldn't judge a style by how many or how few forms they practice. They practice the number they practice, period. If you like that style of MA, then study it and don't worry about how many forms you will have to learn.

Secondly, forms do not teach you "tai chi," regardless of what Mr. Discouraged-By-Poor-Teachers says. When you have a teacher that knows what forms are for, how to dissect and interpret what they contain, then the forms provide you a method of visual cues to remind you how a technique is meant to be performed, it will teach you rhythm, distance and timing of techniques, as well as providing conditioning and endurance training. Many things accomplished through one exercise.

Thirdly, you will never, ever "master" all the forms of your style. After you have learned them all, you will likely gravitate toward one or more of them as they will suit your personality and method of fighting. Learn them, dissect them, and milk them for all they hold. When you have learned a form thoroughly enough, you will find the breakdowns of other forms to be far easier than they were before.

In the end, All are One.

Gambarimasu.
:asian:

 

[redfang]

Originally posted by RyuShiKan
Once again the un-informed, narrow minded, uneducated “anti-kata” faction rears it’s head.
The poster of this thread was not asking whether kata had worth or not but how many kata is enough.
So why don’t you go over to the kenpo section or MMA section if you want to bring up that debate.

Not all kenpo practitioners are anti-kata. Please don't generalize a sentiment across all practitioners of an art.

 

[jfarnsworth]

I preferrably want to learn more than what I have. Even though each are repetitious they provide answers to understanding whichever art you practice. By repetition I mean stances, strikes, blocks, kicks etc. are repeated over again. This just engrains muscle memory plus give you more practice on each category. That's just my take. BTW between the forms and sets I have total 18. Not counting the TKD forms that I rarely practice. Alsol, I'm not trying to toot my own horn here but that's how I feel.:asian:

 

[arnisador]

Please, keep to the topic of the thread--for those arts that use kata/forms, what is the ideal number of forms to practice?

-Arnisador
-MT Admin-

 

[Bob Hubbard]

Right now, I'm working on 1 open hand and 3 stick forms. The 3 stick forms can be assembled into 1 larger form, once you learn the flow of things.

The open hand form is interesting. I've pulled some knife and stick and possibly a sword varrient out of it so far, and am still digging into the possibilities.

I dont see the sence in 'collecting' forms, but I do see it in really 'seeing' em.

How many is too many? when you are simply dancing, and not learning. Even the simplist form has something to tell us, if we listen right.

:asian:

 

[arnisador]

I started a similar thread in the CMA forum some while ago. I find the question interesting. See also this thread, which has another version in this forum I believe

Modern Arnis has 8 empty-hand anyos (kata) and four with weapons (single stick). The weapons ones are fairly simple; the empty-hand ones are drawn from Shotokan. Forms are not stressed in Modern Arnis, but I have also studied Okinawan Karate (kyu levels only) where of course they are.

My personal opinion w.r.t. Karate is that, where forms are concerned, less is more. But then, I used them more for training specific moves than for inspiration as to strategies and applications--I was not only an underbelt but it was before the resurgence of popular interest in grappling-style bunkai. In the latter case one might prefer an encyclopedia.

 

[chufeng]

I am with Yiliquan1 on this...

That is why having a "master" in more than one art is so "foreign" to me...

You will never master your system...so pick one or two forms to master and REALLY work on them...(of course you need to learn the other forms...but the depth you go into will never be the same as your core forms)...dissect them, look at them from eight directions, look at them backwards...now forwards again with a difference in the distance...what is hidden? look for it.

And, as Yiliquan1 said, once you've begun to REALLY understand one form, the others reveal their secrets, as well...

If you remain a general practitioner, you will never get to the heart of the system.

IMHO
:asian:
chufeng

 

[chufeng]

In YiLiQuan, we have a form called GanBaHu...chasing eight tigers...I told Yiliquan1 that it really is the same as Naihanchi Shodan...

WHAT ???

Karate is not the same as CMA...

Yes, it is...

On the surface the forms are very different, but they are very similar when you look at specific movements and applications within the form.

Yiliquan1 has since changed his initial impression of my assessment...he now agrees with me

My ability to see the similarities came from really learning one form very well...VERY WELL...and applying the lessons of that form to all of my forms...AND, having worked (twice) with Oyata Sensei, in a seminar, I can say that HE showed me how the systems are similar...I remembered the pearls he dropped...and incorporated them into my observation and practice...

Does that mean that spending one, or two, or three days with a master will make you an adept at the art of the master? NO, of course not...but the lesson can be applied to the things you already do...

All are One...

:asian:
chufeng

 

[Matt Stone]

Originally posted by chufeng
And, as Yiliquan1 said, once you've begun to REALLY understand one form, the others reveal their secrets, as well...

I only said that because I learned it from you, Yilisifu and RyuShiKan... I figure if that many folks say something, there might be a little truth to it...

As for the Naihanchi Shodan - Gan Ba Hu comparison... Not only are they similar, but I am using my training in Naihanchi Shodan to unlock Gan Ba Hu for me! By training on Naihanchi repreatedly, aspects of Gan Ba Hu are revealing themselves through the similarity of movement and technique.

All really are one.

Gambarimasu.
:asian:

 

[yilisifu]

And THAT kind of in-depth study is how forms are intended to be studied...not just run through quickly so one can say, "OK, I did my forms today."

 

[RyuShiKan]

Originally posted by redfang
Not all kenpo practitioners are anti-kata. Please don't generalize a sentiment across all practitioners of an art.

Have no fear........I realize he is the exception and not the norm.

His argument is like a broken record in so many threads on so many forums I didn't think it needed to be played again here.

 

[Kirk]

Originally posted by RyuShiKan
His argument is like a broken record in so many threads on so many forums I didn't think it needed to be played again here.

AMEN!!!!!

 

[Sauzin]

One Kata is too many if your training time is limited. What do you get by studying Kata? I'll tell you. You get good at Tai Chi. I spent too much time practicing and teaching Kata. I should have spent all my time conditioning, working the bag, and sparring. So should you.

Geeze, well everyone has their own opinion but karate is kata so if you don't practice kata then your in the wrong forum. And if you don't think kata trains defense then, well, let me know when your bag starts fighting back, OK?

As far as the rest of the replies, thank-you. Most everyone here shares my view in general. Personally I don't understand "Masters" of multiple styles either.

Firstly, you shouldn't judge a style by how many or how few forms they practice. They practice the number they practice, period. If you like that style of MA, then study it and don't worry about how many forms you will have to learn

I can't say I entirely understand this statement. Is this to say that the number of forums in a system is irrelevant?

Thirdly, you will never, ever "master" all the forms of your style. After you have learned them all, you will likely gravitate toward one or more of them as they will suit your personality and method of fighting. Learn them, dissect them, and milk them for all they hold. When you have learned a form thoroughly enough, you will find the breakdowns of other forms to be far easier than they were before.

The difficulty I find in this is, with say 80 or more forms, all of my time is spent running through as many as I can in a sometimes hopeless effort not to forget them. I find that to spend the time focusing or dissecting one or two is to forget one or two other forms.

Would it be appropriate to study the system and then at some given point choose what kata that are best focused on and those that are best left behind in hopes of refining the few, or is it best to just run through as many as you can hoping not to forget one or two?

Thank-you again for this educating discussion.

-Paul Holsinger

 

[chufeng]

If you continue to run through as many as you can, you can't claim to really know any forms...you are simply imitating the instructor...it is far better to REALLY understand one, two, or three forms than it is to be able to perform 50 or 60 forms...
The number of forms people are required to learn has grown in the last 150 years, or so...one, two, or three was far more common in the past. Trust me, I've been where you're at in your confusion...I used to do what you are doing...and I found out that I really wasn't digging deeply enough. So, I focused on three forms...yes, I had to relearn the others all over again, but when I went back to them, they were much easier to perform and a lot of the stuff I missed in the interpretations became obvious.

:asian:
chufeng