How easy is it to KO or kill your target with a completely unexpected sneak attack from behind?

[Bullshidog]

One of the things that the RBSD community loves to bash towards martial arts is that martial arts expect you to train for one-on-one encounters and ignore the fact that irl most "fights" are won through surprise sucker punch.

In fact RBSD doctrines in most schools emphasize so much that one doesn't need any skill; hell one doesn't even need weapons to kill because you simply run at your target when they are just walking straight unaware in the park and punch him from behind and he will get knocked out unconcious.

Popular media caught on with this RBSD doctrine and a modern cliche today in war movies and crime thrillers is the killer, often a peasant recruited to join a revolutionary organization or the local mafia, runs up to his victim, a well-trained soldier or policeman, and stabs him in the back and the police or soldier falls and dies instantly. We aren't even talking about vital points like the neck being stabbed, we talking about some random area in the back. A specific example is The Battle of Algiers where Algerian FLN rebels finally decided to make their move and went around stabbing French police officers with knifes and killing 10 or so of them without the French police even realizing they were even dead by the time they fell to the ground.

In some revenge stories where a nerd gets bullied, the nerd doesn't even necessarily use a weapon, he just finds the bully who beat him up a week ago and punch him on the back of the head 5 times out of rage and the bully falls on the ground covering his head out of pain and he couldn't get back up to hit the guy because the sneak attack caught him off guard and hurt so much.

Now I ask because years ago one guy pissed me off so much that the next day I snuck out of the cafeteria during lunch and followed him in the hallway and suddenly ran at him and began punching him. I think I hit him 8 or 9 times but he still wouldn't fall to the ground. In fact after the 8th or 9th punch, he suddenly turned around and grabbed my arm and started wrestling with me when some students were passing by we both stopped and ran out of fear of getting suspended.

When I think of this incident it makes me wonder is all the "sneak attacks" RBSD hypes as being the winner of fights and # killer in the streets is over exaggerated?

 

[Flying Crane]

One of the things that the RBSD community loves to bash towards martial arts is that martial arts expect you to train for one-on-one encounters and ignore the fact that irl most "fights" are won through surprise sucker punch.

In fact RBSD doctrines in most schools emphasize so much that one doesn't need any skill; hell one doesn't even need weapons to kill because you simply run at your target when they are just walking straight unaware in the park and punch him from behind and he will get knocked out unconcious.

Popular media caught on with this RBSD doctrine and a modern cliche today in war movies and crime thrillers is the killer, often a peasant recruited to join a revolutionary organization or the local mafia, runs up to his victim, a well-trained soldier or policeman, and stabs him in the back and the police or soldier falls and dies instantly. We aren't even talking about vital points like the neck being stabbed, we talking about some random area in the back. A specific example is The Battle of Algiers where Algerian FLN rebels finally decided to make their move and went around stabbing French police officers with knifes and killing 10 or so of them without the French police even realizing they were even dead by the time they fell to the ground.

In some revenge stories where a nerd gets bullied, the nerd doesn't even necessarily use a weapon, he just finds the bully who beat him up a week ago and punch him on the back of the head 5 times out of rage and the bully falls on the ground covering his head out of pain and he couldn't get back up to hit the guy because the sneak attack caught him off guard and hurt so much.

Now I ask because years ago one guy pissed me off so much that the next day I snuck out of the cafeteria during lunch and followed him in the hallway and suddenly ran at him and began punching him. I think I hit him 8 or 9 times but he still wouldn't fall to the ground. In fact after the 8th or 9th punch, he suddenly turned around and grabbed my arm and started wrestling with me when some students were passing by we both stopped and ran out of fear of getting suspended.

When I think of this incident it makes me wonder is all the "sneak attacks" RBSD hypes as being the winner of fights and # killer in the streets is over exaggerated?

The cafeteria??? Are you in grade school?

 

[Tony Dismukes]

The primary danger of a sucker punch or sneak attack isn't that it knocks you out cold or kills you instantly. (Although a one-punch knockout is much more likely when the victim doesn't see it coming.)

The danger is that the victim starts out the fight hurt, disoriented, confused, off-balance, and with his structure thoroughly compromised. This gives a huge advantage to the attacker, who can continue with a barrage of attacks without worrying about the victim defending or counter-attacking effectively.

If weapons are involved, it gets much worse. Getting stabbed in the kidneys probably won't kill you instantly (like you see in the movies). instantly. Very likely, you won't even know you've been stabbed. You'll think someone just punched you. That won't be a lot of consolation when you fall over from internal bleeding 15 minutes later.

 

[Tez3]

A specific example is The Battle of Algiers where Algerian FLN rebels finally decided to make their move and went around stabbing French police officers with knifes and killing 10 or so of them without the French police even realizing they were even dead by the time they fell to the ground.

You do know that there wasn't an actual 'Battle of Algiers'? It's a film, covering the years of the insurgency there. The stabbings you describe are fiction.
I'd suggest that you don't know much about RBSD either.

 

[Buka]

I don't think it's a good idea to talk about killing on what most of us consider a respectable forum.

 

[jks9199]

I'm not exactly sure where the original post is going.

Yes, people are much harder to knock out, whether head on or by surprise, than fiction portrays. Think about how many boxing matches end in KOs... Then, of course you also want to think about the harm done in those... Hell, Mickey Spillane, Sam Spade, or most any of the other "hard-boiled" detectives would be gibbering idiots after a year or two, what with the number of concussions they absorb.

At the same time, an attacker with the true advantage of surprise and ambush has a lot of ability to inflict injury on their victim. There's a reason the mantra of a lot of types of tactical operations is "Speed, Surprise, and Violence of Execution."

 

[K-man]

One of the things that the RBSD community loves to bash towards martial arts is that martial arts expect you to train for one-on-one encounters and ignore the fact that irl most "fights" are won through surprise sucker punch.

I think you have a strange idea of RBSD. I teach Krav which I consider to be reality based. I don't bash any other martial arts. In fact I train two others as well. Some martial arts are more 'real' than others and some are less suitable than others for the street. We train to fight or escape from multiple attackers in Krav, just as I teach in karate classes as well. As to the 'fact' that most fights are won through a surprise sucker punch ... hmm!

In fact RBSD doctrines in most schools emphasize so much that one doesn't need any skill; hell one doesn't even need weapons to kill because you simply run at your target when they are just walking straight unaware in the park and punch him from behind and he will get knocked out unconcious.

I have never heard of any martial art school suggesting you run up behind someone and punch them from behind. In Australia that would get you a quick one way trip to a very restrictive environment. As to any martial art that doesn't require skill ... really?

When I think of this incident it makes me wonder is all the "sneak attacks" RBSD hypes as being the winner of fights and # killer in the streets is over exaggerated?

The killer in the street from sucker punches is when the guy being sucker punched hits his head on the ground. I tend to think of it as a coward's punch. It does not have any place in RBSD.

 

[RTKDCMB]

The killer in the street from sucker punches is when the guy being sucker punched hits his head on the ground. I tend to think of it as a coward's punch. It does not have any place in RBSD.

it has no place in any martial art or society.

 

[Zero]

The killer in the street from sucker punches is when the guy being sucker punched hits his head on the ground. I tend to think of it as a coward's punch. It does not have any place in RBSD.

Agreed, I find it hard to follow the OP, is he saying the sucker punch in the form of running up behind someone and bashing them in the back of the neck or head with a fist or baseball bat is part of RBSD?

 

[Zero]

it has no place in any martial art or society.

Agreed, to simply use this as a form of attack is one of the worst kind of gutless sicknesses out there.

...Although, I do see a blind-side attack as being justifiable in certain situations, such as in the instance of you coming across an assailant(s) assaulting a family member or other victim and you simply move in and crack them in the jaw or from behind to end the assault and without warning. You are doing this in defence of another, the assailant has already broken the law and is a threat to someone else and it may be you could not handle the assailant(s) one-on-one in any event. You may also reasonably believe that there is not time to call out (or that they would not listen or stop in any event) and so to protect another's life you simply need to act without forewarning.

That may be the best option in those circumstances. You may have "defence of others" as a possible mitigator in that kind of instance and I would see that as acceptable in the eyes of the law and also as morally condonable before society.

But again, other than those kind of situations, this whole idea of sucker punching or king-hitting is reserved for the most cowardly of scum on this planet.

 

[Chris Parker]

One of the things that the RBSD community loves to bash towards martial arts is that martial arts expect you to train for one-on-one encounters and ignore the fact that irl most "fights" are won through surprise sucker punch.

No, RBSD doesn't "bash towards martial arts", or anything similar.

In fact RBSD doctrines in most schools emphasize so much that one doesn't need any skill; hell one doesn't even need weapons to kill because you simply run at your target when they are just walking straight unaware in the park and punch him from behind and he will get knocked out unconscious.

No, they don't.

Popular media caught on with this RBSD doctrine and a modern cliche today in war movies and crime thrillers is the killer, often a peasant recruited to join a revolutionary organization or the local mafia, runs up to his victim, a well-trained soldier or policeman, and stabs him in the back and the police or soldier falls and dies instantly. We aren't even talking about vital points like the neck being stabbed, we talking about some random area in the back. A specific example is The Battle of Algiers where Algerian FLN rebels finally decided to make their move and went around stabbing French police officers with knifes and killing 10 or so of them without the French police even realizing they were even dead by the time they fell to the ground.

Movies aren't anything to do with RBSD, and nothing you've mentioned is anything close to "RBSD doctrine", whatever that might be.

In some revenge stories where a nerd gets bullied, the nerd doesn't even necessarily use a weapon, he just finds the bully who beat him up a week ago and punch him on the back of the head 5 times out of rage and the bully falls on the ground covering his head out of pain and he couldn't get back up to hit the guy because the sneak attack caught him off guard and hurt so much.

Again, movies… reality… very different things…

Now I ask because years ago one guy pissed me off so much that the next day I snuck out of the cafeteria during lunch and followed him in the hallway and suddenly ran at him and began punching him. I think I hit him 8 or 9 times but he still wouldn't fall to the ground. In fact after the 8th or 9th punch, he suddenly turned around and grabbed my arm and started wrestling with me when some students were passing by we both stopped and ran out of fear of getting suspended.

Yeah… first off, self control is going to be key. Second, doing ineffectual actions leads to ineffective results…

When I think of this incident it makes me wonder is all the "sneak attacks" RBSD hypes as being the winner of fights and # killer in the streets is over exaggerated?

I don't think you actually have much exposure to RBSD, honestly… as this is not what is ever mentioned or meant.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

Agreed, I find it hard to follow the OP, is he saying the sucker punch in the form of running up behind someone and bashing them in the back of the neck or head with a fist or baseball bat is part of RBSD?

Yeah, it's kind of unclear. At first glance I thought he was just reacting to the fact that RBSD training deals (among other things) with the danger of a surprise attack and he wanted to know if a surprise attack was really that dangerous. On second read, it almost seems to suggest that he thinks RBSD advocates ambushing people from behind.

Bullshidog, could you clarify your point?

 

[BeeBrian]

One of the things that the RBSD community loves to bash towards martial arts is that martial arts expect you to train for one-on-one encounters and ignore the fact that irl most "fights" are won through surprise sucker punch.

In fact RBSD doctrines in most schools emphasize so much that one doesn't need any skill; hell one doesn't even need weapons to kill because you simply run at your target when they are just walking straight unaware in the park and punch him from behind and he will get knocked out unconcious.

Popular media caught on with this RBSD doctrine and a modern cliche today in war movies and crime thrillers is the killer, often a peasant recruited to join a revolutionary organization or the local mafia, runs up to his victim, a well-trained soldier or policeman, and stabs him in the back and the police or soldier falls and dies instantly. We aren't even talking about vital points like the neck being stabbed, we talking about some random area in the back. A specific example is The Battle of Algiers where Algerian FLN rebels finally decided to make their move and went around stabbing French police officers with knifes and killing 10 or so of them without the French police even realizing they were even dead by the time they fell to the ground.

In some revenge stories where a nerd gets bullied, the nerd doesn't even necessarily use a weapon, he just finds the bully who beat him up a week ago and punch him on the back of the head 5 times out of rage and the bully falls on the ground covering his head out of pain and he couldn't get back up to hit the guy because the sneak attack caught him off guard and hurt so much.

Now I ask because years ago one guy pissed me off so much that the next day I snuck out of the cafeteria during lunch and followed him in the hallway and suddenly ran at him and began punching him. I think I hit him 8 or 9 times but he still wouldn't fall to the ground. In fact after the 8th or 9th punch, he suddenly turned around and grabbed my arm and started wrestling with me when some students were passing by we both stopped and ran out of fear of getting suspended.

When I think of this incident it makes me wonder is all the "sneak attacks" RBSD hypes as being the winner of fights and # killer in the streets is over exaggerated?

I've never heard of RBSD so I'll have to look that up.

I've never truly sucker punched someone, but I have attacked people before while they were off guard. Like, they were making fun of me and while they were busy laughing, a lunged and hit their faces.

I was a kid during those times, pre-pubescent, so my punches weren't that strong and I wasn't trained at anything. The only time when I truly hurt an opponent from a sucker punch was when I punched him 5 more times after the initial punch. The other times I did it, it was with a single punch, and at best they got stunned for 3 seconds.

In order for one punch to work, it has to be hard and it has to hit the right spot. I'm sure if Tyson or Foreman decided to sucker punch someone, they would knock them out. Power and Precision = Death. Frailty and Clumsiness = Your death.

 

[BeeBrian]

it has no place in any martial art or society.

Unless you're in the Military and you were ordered to assassinate someone.

Martial Art is about fighting. I think people need to realize that the original, historical purpose of martial arts was to win in a fight.

 

[Tez3]

Unless you're in the Military and you were ordered to assassinate someone.

Martial Art is about fighting. I think people need to realize that the original, historical purpose of martial arts was to win in a fight.

What makes you think it's the military's job to 'assassinate' people?
Are you saying you don't think we know what martial arts are or don't know our history?

As for punching people because they are laughing at you, that is assault and something that cannot be condoned. If they are laughing at you why should you care, you should suck it up and walk away as they simply aren't worth you going to prison for. I don't care if you were a kid, you should not have punched the guy once never mind continuing to punch him again and again. Boasting about it on here isn't mature behaviour either is it?
A punch doesn't have to be that hard, it needs to hit the right spot. Assuming because you can hit hard that the person you hit goes down every time is quite an iffy assumption that can get you hurt. I've seen guys take hard punches in their stride and not drop.

 

[BeeBrian]

What makes you think it's the military's job to 'assassinate' people?
Are you saying you don't think we know what martial arts are or don't know our history?

As for punching people because they are laughing at you, that is assault and something that cannot be condoned. If they are laughing at you why should you care, you should suck it up and walk away as they simply aren't worth you going to prison for. I don't care if you were a kid, you should not have punched the guy once never mind continuing to punch him again and again. Boasting about it on here isn't mature behaviour either is it?
A punch doesn't have to be that hard, it needs to hit the right spot. Assuming because you can hit hard that the person you hit goes down every time is quite an iffy assumption that can get you hurt. I've seen guys take hard punches in their stride and not drop.

The essence of serving in a military force is to fight. And that involves killing.

I wouldn't fault WW2 German soldiers for killing another man. I don't know if I should go as far as not fault them for blindly following Hitler's orders of murdering innocent Jewish people, but if I was a soldier serving under the Nazis and they told me to spray bullets against a battalion of American/Jewish/British/French soldiers who maybe will do the same thing if their own superiors told them so, I would do it. I don't know if I can handle the PTSD, but I'll do it. This isn't even about loyalty as much as it is work ethic. lol

 

[Tez3]

The essence of serving in a military force is to fight. And that involves killing.

I wouldn't fault WW2 German soldiers for killing another man. I don't know if I should go as far as not fault them for blindly following Hitler's orders of murdering innocent Jewish people, but if I was a soldier serving under the Nazis and they told me to spray bullets against a battalion of American/Jewish/British/French soldiers who maybe will do the same thing if their own superiors told them so, I would do it. I don't know if I can handle the PTSD, but I'll do it. This isn't even about loyalty as much as it is work ethic. lol

That's a soldier's life though, being an assassin isn't really the work of an infantry soldier it's more of a spec forces/sneaky beaky type of thing.

 

[Zero]

I've never heard of RBSD so I'll have to look that up.

I've never truly sucker punched someone, but I have attacked people before while they were off guard. Like, they were making fun of me and while they were busy laughing, a lunged and hit their faces.

I was a kid during those times, pre-pubescent, so my punches weren't that strong and I wasn't trained at anything. The only time when I truly hurt an opponent from a sucker punch was when I punched him 5 more times after the initial punch. The other times I did it, it was with a single punch, and at best they got stunned for 3 seconds.

In order for one punch to work, it has to be hard and it has to hit the right spot. I'm sure if Tyson or Foreman decided to sucker punch someone, they would knock them out. Power and Precision = Death. Frailty and Clumsiness = Your death.

Dude (!!), all of what you go on to then say is sucker punching!! Some guy laughing off guard and you then punch them = sucker punch!!

 

[Chris Parker]

I've never heard of RBSD so I'll have to look that up.

Reality-Based Self Defence… and don't worry, I don't think the OP has ever heard of it either…

I've never truly sucker punched someone, but I have attacked people before while they were off guard. Like, they were making fun of me and while they were busy laughing, a lunged and hit their faces.

I was a kid during those times, pre-pubescent, so my punches weren't that strong and I wasn't trained at anything. The only time when I truly hurt an opponent from a sucker punch was when I punched him 5 more times after the initial punch. The other times I did it, it was with a single punch, and at best they got stunned for 3 seconds.

In order for one punch to work, it has to be hard and it has to hit the right spot. I'm sure if Tyson or Foreman decided to sucker punch someone, they would knock them out. Power and Precision = Death. Frailty and Clumsiness = Your death.

Er…. okay….

Unless you're in the Military and you were ordered to assassinate someone.

Martial Art is about fighting. I think people need to realize that the original, historical purpose of martial arts was to win in a fight.

The military, by and large, don't assassinate people. Spec ops do, but the larger military don't.

Oh, and in many cases, you're quite off base in your estimation of the "original, historical purpose of martial arts", for the record…

 

[BeeBrian]

Oh, and in many cases, you're quite off base in your estimation of the "original, historical purpose of martial arts", for the record…

Oh, but I'm not. lol

Muay Thai originated in Thai and Cambodian armymen. It was their version of the Marine Corps Martial Arts System.

Jujutsu came from the Samurai.

Boxing has been there since Sumeria and was banned at 393 AD by the Roman empire because it was deemed too bloody... even for gladiatorial standards.

I've done my homework a long time ago.