How does your art deal with two armed attackers?
- Thread starter Loki
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B
Black Bear
Guest
Dude, that depends on, like SO MANY THINGS. We do train with multiple armed attackers.
How mobile are you? Who are you with? What are you armed with? What is the layout of the space? What are the weapons? What is the attack (dynamic vs. static line, threat, etc.)?
With multiple attackers the principle of stacking usually applies, provided there's room to move in all directions (or even if not). Different types of weapons and attacks call for you to engage or disengage in different ways, depending on the maximum, optimum, and mininum range of the weapon.
It's kind of absurd to talk about in the abstract. Throw a picture on the screen and a trained self-defenser will tell you in a second what they do and why. Like:
"The one with the stick is nearest me, and swinging. I evade backward. As the stick crosses my entry line I shoot in with a forearm to the throat and wrap the hand with the stick to pre-empt the punyo. Rake face, while pivoting to the right away from the knife guy ("stacking"), eyegouge, headbutt-elbow-knee, tear off ears, push (via his face) into the second attacker, evaluate that the second guy is off his feet, grab my son around the waist and run".
As you can see, this only makes sense in a very specific situation. It could easily be said, "Wrong--the guy with the knife was closest--and he eviscerated you!" or "You should ALWAYS take the knife guy first so you can immobilize the weapon-bearing limb!"or "Why didn't you deploy your own tac folder and disarm the first guy with it?"
But then if I said deploy a tac folder, someone would say, "Haha, fool--this happened while you were working in a secure facility--you didn't have your folder with you! Shoulda grabbed a lunch tray and rammed it end-first into the guy's teeth!"
Or someone could say, "That's not gonna work, you fool, they set it up as a canyon ambush, between a trailer truck and a building. You have no room to move!" If I can move, I will. If I can pull a weapon, I will. If I can shoot in and get one guy on his heels right away, I will. Otherwise I do something different.
There's no such thing as a set technique for "DEFENSE AGAINST: one guy with stick and one guy with knife".
Fluid situation + fixed response = your body fluids fixed into cement (i.e. you have become a stain on the floor)
It's like Lego pieces being put together. All there is left is skills, drills, and principles. For instance, when there's two armed guys, you're in greater danger, so your freedom to escalate your use of force is greater. On the other hand, as Tony Blauer has said, "what if it's the midget from the Wizard of Oz, and he's now 74 years old and has a butterknife?"
How mobile are you? Who are you with? What are you armed with? What is the layout of the space? What are the weapons? What is the attack (dynamic vs. static line, threat, etc.)?
With multiple attackers the principle of stacking usually applies, provided there's room to move in all directions (or even if not). Different types of weapons and attacks call for you to engage or disengage in different ways, depending on the maximum, optimum, and mininum range of the weapon.
It's kind of absurd to talk about in the abstract. Throw a picture on the screen and a trained self-defenser will tell you in a second what they do and why. Like:
"The one with the stick is nearest me, and swinging. I evade backward. As the stick crosses my entry line I shoot in with a forearm to the throat and wrap the hand with the stick to pre-empt the punyo. Rake face, while pivoting to the right away from the knife guy ("stacking"), eyegouge, headbutt-elbow-knee, tear off ears, push (via his face) into the second attacker, evaluate that the second guy is off his feet, grab my son around the waist and run".
As you can see, this only makes sense in a very specific situation. It could easily be said, "Wrong--the guy with the knife was closest--and he eviscerated you!" or "You should ALWAYS take the knife guy first so you can immobilize the weapon-bearing limb!"or "Why didn't you deploy your own tac folder and disarm the first guy with it?"
But then if I said deploy a tac folder, someone would say, "Haha, fool--this happened while you were working in a secure facility--you didn't have your folder with you! Shoulda grabbed a lunch tray and rammed it end-first into the guy's teeth!"
Or someone could say, "That's not gonna work, you fool, they set it up as a canyon ambush, between a trailer truck and a building. You have no room to move!" If I can move, I will. If I can pull a weapon, I will. If I can shoot in and get one guy on his heels right away, I will. Otherwise I do something different.
There's no such thing as a set technique for "DEFENSE AGAINST: one guy with stick and one guy with knife".
Fluid situation + fixed response = your body fluids fixed into cement (i.e. you have become a stain on the floor)
It's like Lego pieces being put together. All there is left is skills, drills, and principles. For instance, when there's two armed guys, you're in greater danger, so your freedom to escalate your use of force is greater. On the other hand, as Tony Blauer has said, "what if it's the midget from the Wizard of Oz, and he's now 74 years old and has a butterknife?"
Rick Wade
Master Black Belt
Most people that attack do have two arms. LOL :ultracool
Sorry couldn't resist. Just kidding
In American Kenpo we start teaching two man attack or multiple attacks at blue belt and go from there. At that point you have the base moves to start working multiple attacks at once.
V/R
Rick English
Sorry couldn't resist. Just kidding
In American Kenpo we start teaching two man attack or multiple attacks at blue belt and go from there. At that point you have the base moves to start working multiple attacks at once.
V/R
Rick English
FearlessFreep
Senior Master
Well...since our school is a Christian business....prayer is always a good first line of defense...
B
Black Bear
Guest
Rick Wade, that's actually a good one.
OP
OP
Loki
Black Belt
Ooooookay, let me be a bit more specific: You're in a dojo, so you can maneuver all you like, you're wearing your uniform and they're both at a distance from you.Black Bear said:
I didn't get too specific (thought these are details I admit I should have included) because I'm interested more in your analysis of the situation rather than if you'd use a hook or a jab. Placing them is exactly is options you can include, since different positioning has different consequences.
Move to Canada where we have medicare. Fighting to armed opponents is going to get you hurt, no matter how good you are.
Use a weapon of your own. Anything. Attempt to face of empty handed and you'll get hurt as Andrew noted. A weapon of your own gives you a better chance...preferrably a smith and wesson.Andrew Green said:
I have to agree with the last 2 posters. Anytime you're dealing with more than 1 person, getting out of that situation ASAP is key, and moreso when there are weapons. If getting away immediately is not an option, using something as an equalizer is your next best option.
Mike
Mike
OP
OP
Loki
Black Belt
In an attempt to get this post back on track, the question is what tactics would you use? what kind of thinking? Obviously it's a really bad situation to be in in the first place and if you can you should run, but what kind of thinking would you employ to get out alive if you're cornered?
We go about it this way:
A) The stick is a better weapon to use since it has longer range, and is also more dangerous to me, so that's why I'd charge at the attacker and disarm him, keeping him between me and the knife guy, and then bash them both. Keeping the knife wielder between me and the stick guy isn't a good idea, as he can swing the stick over his friend's head and get me.
B) If the knife is closer, he's the immediate threat. I'd defend against him and disarm if possible, and the moment the stick guy gets too close I charge at him and continue like A. If I have the knife, I can throw it (or anything else for that matter) at him to disorient before charging.
We go about it this way:
A) The stick is a better weapon to use since it has longer range, and is also more dangerous to me, so that's why I'd charge at the attacker and disarm him, keeping him between me and the knife guy, and then bash them both. Keeping the knife wielder between me and the stick guy isn't a good idea, as he can swing the stick over his friend's head and get me.
B) If the knife is closer, he's the immediate threat. I'd defend against him and disarm if possible, and the moment the stick guy gets too close I charge at him and continue like A. If I have the knife, I can throw it (or anything else for that matter) at him to disorient before charging.
KyleShort
Green Belt
Hmm, I think you may be over analyzing. Being attacked by multiple armed assailants while you are unarmed is bad. No strategy you train will pan out when it must. Just train hard and fight hard. Run if you can, talk if you can't.
I can understand wanting to collect techniques and strategies and discuss the what-if's to death, but there comes a point when it is no longer feasible to even entertain it.
I can understand wanting to collect techniques and strategies and discuss the what-if's to death, but there comes a point when it is no longer feasible to even entertain it.
Old Fat Kenpoka
Master Black Belt
In order to deal with multiple armed attacker, Kenpo utilizes fast hand movements and "checks" to block and off-balance attackers. These unique Kenpo skills enable the Kenpoist to quickly grab his cell phone and dial 911. 
FearlessFreep
Senior Master
Probably the increasing complexity of possibilities. A single person with four limbs can move in a lot of ways...but they are anchored to the person so you can work against what they can do. Two people doubles the number of weapons but also geometrically increases the number of possible positions they may be in, just in their own bodies, and then you add in the number of positions they can be in in relationship to each other.
In one on one...you can say "if your opponent does this...you can do that" but with multiple attackers it becomes "if one person does A while the other does B...you can do..." and the possible permutations is *much* higher.
Probably good to practice multiple attackers to get used to improvising, but too many combinations to effectively come up with repetitive, muscle-memory based reactions
In one on one...you can say "if your opponent does this...you can do that" but with multiple attackers it becomes "if one person does A while the other does B...you can do..." and the possible permutations is *much* higher.
Probably good to practice multiple attackers to get used to improvising, but too many combinations to effectively come up with repetitive, muscle-memory based reactions
M
Mark Weiser
Guest
The very first thing you would have to do is line them up so that when and if the attack comes the two attackers would be in a linear attack towards each other giving you a momentary pause to move to the side of the closet attacker and then go to town on this attacker making sure the attacker is between you and the second attacker. Even if the first attacker is taken out you can still use that body as a sheild to ward off any potential attack from the other person while trying to find an EXIT! ALWAYS find an exit ASAP
KenpoTex
Senior Master
We spent a lot of time discussing multiple attackers on this thread , you might find some of it interesting. Granted, the focus of this thread was on multiple attackers who are all larger, but multiple attackers are bad news no matter what size they are, or how they're armed.
As far as I'm concerned, the first strategy is to run like hell. Failing that, shoot them (all of them). Failing that, attack the one closest and mess him up as bad as you can; lather, rinse, repeat.
And...at any time feel free to return to the first strategy of running like hell.
As far as I'm concerned, the first strategy is to run like hell. Failing that, shoot them (all of them). Failing that, attack the one closest and mess him up as bad as you can; lather, rinse, repeat.
And...at any time feel free to return to the first strategy of running like hell.
Paul Genge
Green Belt
The danger with having a predefined set of strategies is that the situation you find yourself in will never be quite like the ones you have planed for. In systema we do a lot of multiple opponent work including working in and against crowds.
In systema we learn to breath correctly to help calm our fear and reduce tension in our bodies. In some situations we concentrate on moving and escaping and in others we apply more direct work. Instead of learning these through set piece techniques we use a nuber of games that get the point across at a level our bodies understand.
I would definately agree with the concept of getting a weapon if one is to hand, but becoming fixated on that could be what gets you killed.
Most attacks have some sort of build up. This includes threats and posturing. During this phase it is often possible to escape if your own pride does not get in the way. If due to your location or other factors you cannot escape your work has to be very direct and efficient. In any multiple opponent situation you cannot afford to be grappling or rolling around the floor. As soon as you get tied into one opponent you are a sitting target for the other attackers.
The best defence of all is not to be stupid enough to place yourself in the situation in the first place.
Paul Genge
Russian Martial Arts Northwest (UK)
In systema we learn to breath correctly to help calm our fear and reduce tension in our bodies. In some situations we concentrate on moving and escaping and in others we apply more direct work. Instead of learning these through set piece techniques we use a nuber of games that get the point across at a level our bodies understand.
I would definately agree with the concept of getting a weapon if one is to hand, but becoming fixated on that could be what gets you killed.
Most attacks have some sort of build up. This includes threats and posturing. During this phase it is often possible to escape if your own pride does not get in the way. If due to your location or other factors you cannot escape your work has to be very direct and efficient. In any multiple opponent situation you cannot afford to be grappling or rolling around the floor. As soon as you get tied into one opponent you are a sitting target for the other attackers.
The best defence of all is not to be stupid enough to place yourself in the situation in the first place.
Paul Genge
Russian Martial Arts Northwest (UK)
Loki said:
Keep in mind that the techniques that we learn are giving us a foundation to further build off of. If we rely too much on always doing that preset technique in the exact fashion, we are not gaining anything. When I would do technique lines with students, I'd often have the 'attackers' do an attack that the student was not familiar with. 9 times out of ten they'd stand there with that deer in the headlights look on their face, wondering what to do. They would say, "I havent learned a defense for this attack yet." My reply was, "Do you know how to move? Do you know how to punch, kick and block?" Yes would be the reply from the student. I'd then say, "Then do it!!!!" Sure they didn't do that preset, textbook fashion technique, but they did what what needed to do, and that was to defend themselves.
We can learn 20 preset multi man attacks against weapons, but the fact remains, is that scenario is not going to play out in the exact same fashion as it did in preset tech. #1. Instead we need to take the concepts and ideas that we learned as a foundation, and learn to build off from there. We need to react...period!!! Not sit there and think, "Hmmm...ok, which one of the 20 multi man attack techniques am I going to do in this situation?"
Mike
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