How do we safeguard young girls when approached like this.....
- Thread starter Tez3
- Start date
I have so many thoughts about this, but I don't seem to be able to make them coherent...
One of them though.
I'm a wandery person. If I go into town or something I very rarely take a direct line. I'll go from A to B via 17 other places that I don't stop at.
It's likely happened that I've completely inadvertently "followed" someone for an indeterminate amount of time/distance.
Had they turned around and pointed a lens at me, what weight would my truthful explanation of "I'm having a wander" carry? Would the police just say "oh right, no problem, carry on" if someone reported me for tailing them?
In fact, why would I have to justify my being in a place at all? I go lots of places for no real reason.
To be continued...
One of them though.
I'm a wandery person. If I go into town or something I very rarely take a direct line. I'll go from A to B via 17 other places that I don't stop at.
It's likely happened that I've completely inadvertently "followed" someone for an indeterminate amount of time/distance.
Had they turned around and pointed a lens at me, what weight would my truthful explanation of "I'm having a wander" carry? Would the police just say "oh right, no problem, carry on" if someone reported me for tailing them?
In fact, why would I have to justify my being in a place at all? I go lots of places for no real reason.
To be continued...
I'm quite sure the vast majority of 12 year old girls are fully aware people exist who would want to do them harm.
The real question is how do we (and subsequently said 12 year old girl) identify them?
You would be surprised how many young girls are actually quite naïve, we are so used to seeing precocious children on the television and films that we forget that it isn't true of most of them.
if you read my OP it's not just about being followed which most people wouldn't notice but of stopping, asking directions and the girl's name, all done in a manner designed, deliberately to scare the girl. No sane man these days would stop a young girl on their own and ask directions and then her name. No man should be such a creep as to scare girls deliberately just to get some kind of sexual thrill out of it.
It is a sad reflection on our times but it's what it is and we have to do our part not to make matters worse.
If you read the last two paragraphs of the forum post you pasted into your OP, you'll see reference to "follow a girl until she notices you", or "look for a girl walking by herself and follow her, after a while they notice you".
The way it reads is that this particular person found the "chase" excited him after the first instance involving direct contact (stopping to quiz them, then following) and he progressed to the following without contact - causing distress by simply being present.
A girl getting approached and quizzed is a different situation to 'just' being obviously followed around and much easier to identify (but unfortunately, not particularly easier to prepare for or deal with).
If I read it? do you think I haven't read it? Are you trying to be obtuse about this?
Have you ever followed someone deliberately? It's more than possible to follow someone, whether accidently or deliberately, without them noticing. However the sub makes it a point to ensure the girl would notice him, he acts in a manner that causes suspicion and fear, you meandering around a town would not do that even if someone noticed you so it's unlikely that you would get anyone in your face though why you are making this about you I'm not sure.
I would and have told 12 year old children the exact same thing. I elaborated as needed with them but for the most part 12 year girls are (like other 12 year olds) are smart enough to understand. Many have already gone through the process of making friends and meeting someone that they don't like, or someone who doesn't like them.
Before I teach anything about self defense, I want to make sure that their mindset is where it needs to bee so they don't base their decision off of "oh he won't do that, he's too nice." There are many examples of people who we never thought "would do such a thing." Bill Cosby for example. 12 year old children these days often have a better grasp of things then my generation and the generation before me. They are exposed to more than I was as child. The key part of telling a 12 year old what I posted is to talk to the 12 year old as a person, or as an elder giving youth a life lesson (this works better for me, even with my son).
I try not to talk to them as a child "who doesn't understand." The reason why is because I give real life examples that they can refer to and think about. For example, this post about stalking women as being fun, could be an example of what some predators think. Show the 12 year old, ask them what do they think about it, how does it make them feel? But only ask them these question after you have given them information to work with.
Talks like this were common when I worked in the Youth Development field. Our main goal was to keep children from making costly mistakes and to steer them from trouble and bad influences.
But the moment you talk to the 12 year old like a child will be the exact same moment they will ignore you and do the opposite of what you told them, just to "prove a point." Once they get into that mindset, then the only way they will learn is through the hard way.
They are naive about somethings, but at that age they have the intelligence to learn even if they don't fully believe what is coming out of an adults mouth. I always try to educate them on what to look out for vs just saying don't do this. By giving them the warning signs to look out for they can compare what they see to what they were told. The more warning signs that they can spot the more likely they feel that the adult is right. Provided the lecture that the adult gave also included what do to, when they see the warning signs, then at least they will have some pre-thought out options, vs trying to think of what to do on the fly.
it's not fool proof but it's them something to work with, which is better than going in totally naive and clueless.
Anarax
Master Black Belt
IMO, younger people should be taught action priority for the given situation. The FB live isn't a bad idea, but not everyone knows what FB live is nor have a strong understanding of how technology works. A potential outcome with the FB live option is escalation from the stalker. If you're still alone when you use the FB live threat that may increase the likelihood of them getting violent. Getting on the phone immediately with the police and at the same time looking for the most crowded area would be my first priority. I believe there are phone apps that send a distress signal when activated, check with your local law enforcement to see which ones are compatible with their systems and what they recommend.
I think confrontation in these type of situations should be a last resort and only done if cornered with no exit. Depending on the laws in your area, pepper spray is a great option. However, they must be trained in how to use it effectively and safely(for the user).
I think confrontation in these type of situations should be a last resort and only done if cornered with no exit. Depending on the laws in your area, pepper spray is a great option. However, they must be trained in how to use it effectively and safely(for the user).
Some people will get real benefit from a one-off course. Those fall into two groups: those who suddenly understand they are capable of fighting back (these are people who are able to hit and struggle reasonably using only their athleticism) and those who suddenly understand they need training to be able to do what they want so they go and get started. The first group is pretty limited, and some one-off classes won't include any (I've probably seen only a handful of these among women). The second group is probably smaller than it should be, given these folks are going to a SD seminar.
Outside those two groups, one-off seminars don't provide much long-term benefit. To me, those groups are the reason I ever do them.
That's a realistic issue. I've caught myself being behind the same person for extended periods on many occasions. I noticed this driving just yesterday - it would have been easy for this driver to think I was following them (especially since they sort of cut me off when they got in front of me the first time). I can see how someone could easily get the impression they are being followed if they were either overly sensitive to it (had a scare previously, for instance) or I just did something that looked fishy (one of those times when I suddenly realize I'm going the wrong way and turn to walk the other direction, just as they happen to pass me). It'd certainly be embarrassing to have someone ask me on live video what the hell I'm doing. It could even screw up someone's career (suppose someone is considering hiring me as a consultant for a big project, and sees that video on Facebook).
All the same, when someone is actually following, it's a tactic that ensures they know they're not going to go unrecognized. I'm on the fence about this.
I doubt this is anything new, Tez. We just hear about it more (and more quickly) because our information flow has changed. And we recognize many things as being improper that would previously have been dismissed (like a lot of the stuff out of Hollywood in the last few months).
I was just meaning that children aren't always as 'grown up' as children portrayed in films and television programmes. Comedies etc rely on the child actors portraying 'smart' kids for the laughs etc, and dramas wouldn't portray normal life which can be quite pedestrian for television, films etc.
Oni_Kadaki
Green Belt
This sounds like an attempt at rebranding stalking to be "innocent." The individual in the OP followed this girl for the express purpose of making her feel uncomfortable and in fear for her safety, which plays right into the NY definition of stalking. Doesn't that earn the piece of **** following the girl in this scenario a face full of pepper spray?
hoshin1600
Senior Master
i want to address a few issues that were brought up. the predators post said (paraphrased) the girl notices and goes from walking to walking briskly, to running. she tires to quicken her pace and lose me. meaning she is taking a path that is purposeful to prove to herself that he is following her. notice he said she quickens her pace to a run. i do not think anyone meandering though a busy area like a shopping mall is going to be running. when someone is following you in this manner he is purposeful and will be looking at her at certain points. now i do not want to speak for the other gender but i believe we all know when someone is making glances at us and i think women are more in tune to men looking at them in undesirable ways.
while a theoretical case could be made that filming the potential stalker might entrap innocent men, i find it highly doubtful in the real world. sexual predators do not want to be caught. the last thing they want is to be on camera. (it ruins any alibi of "i wasnt there, it wasnt me") they will find another target if they feel in danger of being exposed. in the case it really was an abduction there would be photographic evidence for police to use for investigations.
as far as confrontation, i do not think it would escalate. ill have to think about this some more but i do not think so. this is about a young girl i have a feeling its not going to turn into a fight but i could be wrong.
also it doesnt have to be confrontational. i do think that approach works well in many cases but it takes courage. the girl could do what girls tend to do...take selfies.
consistently pointing the phones camera lens in his direction. the point is he is going to know he is on camera and the hope is he will abandon his target for someone else.
using the phone camera is a tactic, it doesnt have to be Facebook live, it could be used anyway the person feels will work in that particular situation.
the underlying principal is to "create a strategic stalemate". this means taking defensive actions as soon as possible. calling the police because you think someone is following you would not be my advise. first off, most times the victim is not sure where that line is , when should they call. its like having chest pain. do i call the doctor? do i call an ambulance? i dont want to look like a fool calling the ambulance and the EMT"s for heartburn. maybe ill wait a bit and see if i feel better.
sometimes its obvious, most times its not.
so what i advise is to react as soon as you think something is happening. but that doesnt mean press the panic button and call the police (who are not going to be much help anyway). you dont jump in absolutes. you make smaller incremental moves creating that "strategic stalemate" where it will cause a reaction of either defusing the attempted attack or forcing the assailants hand to reveal himself if he is determined. in which case you now know the extent of the danger and can jump from 0 to 60 in flight or flight mode, color RED. by acting in this manner you should have put yourself in a better position to defend yourself. Cross the street, leave the premises, move closer to the door, position yourself to conceal your draw, cover/ concealment, get ahead of the crowd. its not yelling fire in a movie theater, its small and subtle so if its a false alarm you can recoup and go about your day. but the sooner you react the more effective it is.
while a theoretical case could be made that filming the potential stalker might entrap innocent men, i find it highly doubtful in the real world. sexual predators do not want to be caught. the last thing they want is to be on camera. (it ruins any alibi of "i wasnt there, it wasnt me") they will find another target if they feel in danger of being exposed. in the case it really was an abduction there would be photographic evidence for police to use for investigations.
as far as confrontation, i do not think it would escalate. ill have to think about this some more but i do not think so. this is about a young girl i have a feeling its not going to turn into a fight but i could be wrong.
also it doesnt have to be confrontational. i do think that approach works well in many cases but it takes courage. the girl could do what girls tend to do...take selfies.
consistently pointing the phones camera lens in his direction. the point is he is going to know he is on camera and the hope is he will abandon his target for someone else. using the phone camera is a tactic, it doesnt have to be Facebook live, it could be used anyway the person feels will work in that particular situation.
the underlying principal is to "create a strategic stalemate". this means taking defensive actions as soon as possible. calling the police because you think someone is following you would not be my advise. first off, most times the victim is not sure where that line is , when should they call. its like having chest pain. do i call the doctor? do i call an ambulance? i dont want to look like a fool calling the ambulance and the EMT"s for heartburn. maybe ill wait a bit and see if i feel better.
sometimes its obvious, most times its not.
so what i advise is to react as soon as you think something is happening. but that doesnt mean press the panic button and call the police (who are not going to be much help anyway). you dont jump in absolutes. you make smaller incremental moves creating that "strategic stalemate" where it will cause a reaction of either defusing the attempted attack or forcing the assailants hand to reveal himself if he is determined. in which case you now know the extent of the danger and can jump from 0 to 60 in flight or flight mode, color RED. by acting in this manner you should have put yourself in a better position to defend yourself. Cross the street, leave the premises, move closer to the door, position yourself to conceal your draw, cover/ concealment, get ahead of the crowd. its not yelling fire in a movie theater, its small and subtle so if its a false alarm you can recoup and go about your day. but the sooner you react the more effective it is.
Anarax
Master Black Belt
I agree that photographic evidence is damaging, but it has to reach the police to be useful. Many criminals don't think like we do and won't evaluate situations 3-dimensionally. Meaning, they might think if they get the phone they'll prevent the photos from being shared. There have been instances of armed robbers shooting the victims because they recognized the perpetrator.
I'm not saying it's guaranteed that it will, but some criminals act irrationally. I also specified it would be dangerous if they did the FB live threat alone opposed to other people around. The FB live with people around isn't a bad idea, given it will also garner attention from people near by.
It may, I favor calling the police because it might prevent the other targets from being victimized, among other reasons.
Using the heart attack example, calling the paramedics when you have slight discomfort in your chest for a few seconds is probably jumping the gun. However, knowing the signs and symptoms of a heart attack vs heartburn will help in making better educated decisions, the same goes for stalking. Teaching them where the line of paranoia ends and reasonable suspicion begins is important. It's more than if they simply feel they're being followed, but there are visual ques that strongly support they are being followed.
If there's a reasonable suspicion that they're being followed then the police will be helpful. I've had friends and family call because of stalking suspicions, both on foot and vehicular. The police responded within a reasonable amount of time and were quite helpful. I can't say you'll get a timely response every time, but the police should respond if there's a reasonable suspicion. Essentially, I think it comes down to when(situational parameters) law enforcement will help opposed to if.
hoshin1600
Senior Master
@Anarax your widening the scope of the situation. the op had a specific situation and that calls for as specific an answer as can be given. by widening the scope it adds variables to the problem that in turn creates needless complexity. this often happens when people are just trying to win the argument rather then a solution to the problem. if you prefer to call the police, sure... that is one solution. i am only presenting my advise on how to address the issue and give students some better tools. problems need solutions and these need to be thought through in a deep and meaningful way. if we are to be teachers who give advise to others who will in turn rely on our instruction when their lives hang in the balance, then we need to seriously think though our responses and follow each line of thought to its conclusion. nothing in self defense is 100% we deal in percentages and probabilities. always trying to increase our chance of survivability.
for this reason i am going to respond to your post. its not to argue but rather to bring more clarity to my own previously given answers.
taking a photo may dissuade the predator but could also be used to find the victim in the case it was an actual abduction.
https://www.quora.com/How-many-people-mistake-heart-blockages-for-heartburn
"I do know ...(the numbers), however, that a very large group of people can’t tell the difference between the two. Doctors in Emergency Rooms use tests to make sure you are not having a heart attack because they are not always sure themselves."
"unless you have a lot of experience with both types of pain I say to you, that you should go to the Emergency Room immediately."
no one wants to go to the hospital and pay that bill if its not a heart attack. so they wait,, ill wait to see if it goes away. sometimes it goes away and sometimes they collapse and die. that was my point. there is a threshold and a big area of being unsure. you dont know when you should act because your not sure. your actions will not be definitive.
for this reason i am going to respond to your post. its not to argue but rather to bring more clarity to my own previously given answers.
in the OPs post there is a situation where a young girl is being followed. we know from the predators on line comments that (at this time) he has no intention of abduction and only intends on scaring her. she does not know this. my thinking is that it would be a good response in her situation to get the predators pictures and several of them in not video. if this is a real abduction then the police investigation will go though her on line interactions with a fine tooth comb. if right before her last sighting she posted a video or several photos of a man, (even if he is in the back round) you can guarantee that lead will be followed up on.
taking a photo may dissuade the predator but could also be used to find the victim in the case it was an actual abduction.
we are discussing a specific situation. the predator is following the victim. this is a premeditated behavior. it is in no way an impulsive act. this is not irrational behavior.
follow this line of thought though. the predator is following the victim, if the situation is in a lone dark ally then there would be no question about him following her and his intentions. she should run ...and fast to a safe location. there should be no confrontation initiated on her part. however the situation as i understood it, is that this could be happening in a crowded public space. this allows the predator to follow without causing suspicion and puts doubt in her mind and allows him the alibi " i wasnt stalking, i was just window shopping". my advise was directed at this situation where the victim has some doubt.
if a was a predator i wouldnt stand on the street corner trying victim after victim, like casting a fishing pole in the water. you select the target very carefully and then proceed, if the attempt goes bad you get out and find another location on a different day. there will not be much the police can do. the predator will be long gone.
you must not be in the age bracket where you need to worry about these things yet, but my analogy is very accurate.
https://www.quora.com/How-many-people-mistake-heart-blockages-for-heartburn
"I do know ...(the numbers), however, that a very large group of people can’t tell the difference between the two. Doctors in Emergency Rooms use tests to make sure you are not having a heart attack because they are not always sure themselves."
"unless you have a lot of experience with both types of pain I say to you, that you should go to the Emergency Room immediately."
no one wants to go to the hospital and pay that bill if its not a heart attack. so they wait,, ill wait to see if it goes away. sometimes it goes away and sometimes they collapse and die. that was my point. there is a threshold and a big area of being unsure. you dont know when you should act because your not sure. your actions will not be definitive.
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