How come ?

Burnerbob

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An "Oriental Master" leaves his style and starts a new one, everybody praises him as the next best thing since sliced bread ?
He is idolized for what he has done, and kudos placed upon him, yet when an "American" does the same thing he is chastised and labeled as a glory seeker.
All of the arts were derived from others example Judo was an off shoot of Jiu-Jitsu, Kempo or Kenpo, and so on. Yet these were founded by "Oriental Masters".
 
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Sukerkin

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I'm not certain this is entirely true is it?

There is a world of difference between the legitimacy of a 'branch' of a ryu created by someone of seniority and some young black-belt who decides that he's 'great' enough to found his own 'style'.

Is there a certain someone you have in mind?
 
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Burnerbob

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I am not talking about some "Young Black Belt", rather seasoned veterans.
Yes Richard Barathay comes to mind, but there are others. Grand Master Peter Urban is another and I have trained with them as well as other greats both American and Oriental. While Urban stayed with the ideals of Go Ju, Barathay took ACK one step beyond.
Grand Master Gene Perceval (Bushido 40) while still maintaining his allegiance to Tae Kwon Do taught us many years ago to adapt to what best fits your situation.
I have nothing but high respect and admiration for these three, and it erks me to no end when people who have never even met them can criticise them.
I for one will cherish all that I have learned from them and other greats, for it is through them I am who I am today.
 

JadecloudAlchemist

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There is nothing really wrong with creating your own style be that Asian,or not.


As I said in the "create your own style" thread

Most people create a style based on interperation which may lead to Ego strokes.

I think there is a higher chance in modern times of non Asians creating there own style and in some cases the drive is money and greed.
 

MJS

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An "Oriental Master" leaves his style and starts a new one, everybody praises him as the next best thing since sliced bread ?
He is idolized for what he has done, and kudos placed upon him, yet when an "American" does the same thing he is chastised and labeled as a glory seeker.
All of the arts were derived from others example Judo was an off shoot of Jiu-Jitsu, Kempo or Kenpo, and so on. Yet these were founded by "Oriental Masters".

Here's something to think about. The arts we see today, were all founded by masters, many years ago. Those arts still exist to this day. Generations produce more top level teachers, and the art continues to get passed on. So, why would one of those current day masters, find it necessary to run out and make it seem like they created something new?

You have many people who trained with Ed Parker. While those people may have their own interpretations of how to perform a given technique, the fact remains that they're not running around making it seem like they're the founder of some new style of Kenpo. Why would they? I mean, they could call the art Combat Kenpo, but is it really anything different than what Parker was teaching?

Additionally, there're so many arts out there today, why does anyone feel the need to do this? If people do, I still maintain that its ego driven. Those people have some complex about themselves, and feel that unless they brag about training in 8 different arts, holding 8 7th degree black belts, and the claim that they're some founder, that they won't amount to anything. Its sad.
 
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punisher73

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An "Oriental Master" leaves his style and starts a new one, everybody praises him as the next best thing since sliced bread ?
He is idolized for what he has done, and kudos placed upon him, yet when an "American" does the same thing he is chastised and labeled as a glory seeker.
All of the arts were derived from others example Judo was an off shoot of Jiu-Jitsu, Kempo or Kenpo, and so on. Yet these were founded by "Oriental Masters".

I don't think that is always the case, I just don't think we hear about it as much since many of the styles in question the founder is dead.

Although, I think that here in the US anyways it does seem to be the pattern that there can be no new innovations or approaches and anything new is just a junk style or a rip off of something else.
 

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In some instances, like with one of my three masters, certain people do have the skill but over time have made either subtle changes to the art they were taught or have over time created some of their own items. In order not to confuse the public, they shed the organization name and take on another name. As an example, my white crane and Yang tai chi master, Jeff Bolt, is the senior student of Dr. Yang Jwing Ming. However, we have never been a part of the YMAA organization. When Dr. Yang use to come to Houston to do seminars, he acknowledged that some of Jeff's acumen was as good as his, i.e. fa jing, candle punching, long fist. Jeff also created a two person 5 part chin na set that incorporated many of the techniques he was taught by Dr. Yang. Until he closed the school 2 years ago because he was out of country on business and recently got married, he had named the school, "Jeff Bolt's Kung fu & Tai chi." Dr. Yang never took offense to this. Jeff also behind the scenes learned alot from Madame Wong Ju Rong and Dr. Cheng de Wu, who he sponsored to the US i n 1989, and for awhile they were embedded in the school.

On the other hand, my other two masters still call their schools Ying Jow Pai Ng Wei branch of Lau Ying Jow (Leung Shum), and Wang's School of Kung Fu Fighters (Ricky Anderson for Wang Fui Yen).

I will say though, in my humble opinion, two things should occur before doing this: first, have a legitimate master either give permission or tacit understanding, and second, a person should have at least 25-30 years of strong background before doing so, and verifiable to the public and the martial arts community.

This is my humble opinion. I totally disagree with people who do otherwise. Also, to the three masters one person mentioned, I have seen two of the three perform at Madison Square Garden when I worked and trained there, and they are awesome. Dillman's pressure point acumen is controversial, and Mr. Barathy's breaking is superhuman, but in person both were unexplainable, and I am not one to be awed easily now.
 

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How many new arts do you see coming from Oriental Masters these days? I don't know of any new ones that are groundbreaking...Gracie JJ is fairly new, but it's a build on top of JJ, not a completely new art.

How many of those arts that came from Oriental Masters from so many years ago professed to be the only art you would ever need, and that it could trump any other art out there?

The fact remains that the martial arts that we study now originated mostly in the East. Not all of them, but the majority.

I'm not saying that someone can't come up with their own art from the West, but honestly, how much more can we do beyond flying that would be new concept?

Look at things objectively instead of being defensive about certain instructors. All of the "Oriental Arts" have some type of distinction about them...sure, they were offshoots of other arts. But you can tell the difference between Judo and Jiu Jitsu, Kenpo and Shotokan.

How many of these "shiny new" American arts are really, truly distinct?

None that I've seen.
 

YoungMan

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Because many times the American isn't creating anything new, and in fact is creating some "new art" for less than honorable reasons (money, ego etc.)
99% of the time, American-made martial arts are simply the same car with a different paint job.
Peter Urban promoted himself to 9th Dan if I recall correctly.
 

jks9199

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It wasn't always (or, possibly, ever) done without problems and acrimony.

But it may have been handled in a very different way. Westerners and Easterners often have problems when they compare responses or actions; there's often things hidden in plain sight.

I've seen two ways that "new" styles start. Some start organically. Someone trains, whether in one system or several, and learns and adapts, and starts getting successful. If they've got the right mindset, they systematize their training or they simply start sharing it with people. Occasionally, along the same lines, someone makes an intuitive leap that leads them from their training to something new. (Steve Perry did a nice job describing this process in The Musashi Flex. This organic process isn't so much a case of inventing something new as figuring out what the "creator" was doing anyway, if that makes sense.

The other way is what we're seeing a lot of lately here in the US. Someone decides to invent their own style, often to be able to market something commercially or an even more ego driven process... Or someone splits off from their teacher, and distances themselves by renaming what they do. (Note that this is different from starting a new organization after a split; in that case, folks are still teaching whatever, just under "new management.") This commercial or ego driven process puts folks off -- and all too often, it's done by someone who hasn't really got the depth in anything to know that, at best, they're reinventing the wheel.
 
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Burnerbob

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Because many times the American isn't creating anything new, and in fact is creating some "new art" for less than honorable reasons (money, ego etc.)
99% of the time, American-made martial arts are simply the same car with a different paint job.
Peter Urban promoted himself to 9th Dan if I recall correctly.
Your recollection is wrong. Master Urban received his "Tenth Degree" from the Budokukai (an examining board of well respected high ranking members) under "Grandmaster" Richard Kim with the blessings of O'Sensi Yamaguchi (founder of Go Ju).
 

Xue Sheng

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An "Oriental Master" leaves his style and starts a new one, everybody praises him as the next best thing since sliced bread ?
He is idolized for what he has done, and kudos placed upon him, yet when an "American" does the same thing he is chastised and labeled as a glory seeker.
All of the arts were derived from others example Judo was an off shoot of Jiu-Jitsu, Kempo or Kenpo, and so on. Yet these were founded by "Oriental Masters".

First not all "Oriental Masters" that created a style or for that matter called themselves a master succeeded. Some only managed to get laughed out of the area or beaten severely.

Second; Those "Oriental Masters", If you are talking People like Wang Xiangzhai (founder of Yiquan) or Jigoro Kano (founder of Judo) and before. Didn't just wake up one day after years of training and say "Hey I think I need to make a new style" and then go off and happily start teaching it. They fought one hell of a lot of people to prove their new style was worthy to actually "BE" a style of its own. They faced ridicule, scorn and challenges. Now they are thought of as great masters but they were not in the beginning.

So if a guy wants to make his own style today and he has the training to back it up then he should be able to take a little (or a lot of) ridicule and/or verbal abuse, since challenges are not all that common today in the West. If he/she can't take that then don't start your own style and stop whinig about it.

And if you are talking China today and a guy shows up to a group of Chinese martial artists and calls himself a grandmaster he will either be asking for a challenge or get laughed out of the room. If he shows up and says I have a new style...well he will have to prove it sooner or later (unless he restricts his students to westerners that is. Westerners eat this stuff up and take it a face value since the face is, after all, Chinese). It seems to me that it is pretty damn easy here in the west to start your own style and label yourself things like “Grandmaster” if you are honestly comparing this to the East.
 

Daniel Sullivan

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Xue, I think that a lot of the problem with westerners accepting things at face value has to do with the fact that eastern martial arts have only been in the states as a real presence since the late forties, and that's being generous. On the other hand, a Chinese man of a hundred and seven would never have known a time that the traditional arts were not around.

For westerners, MA still has that shiney, new, 'ooh' ah cool factor. It's worn off a bit, which is why when a "new style" is introduced, it reignites the new-cool factor for some.

Lastly, Americans are truly talented at reinventing things, systemetizing things, and improving things. Yankee ingenuity, we like to call it. And we are. This mentality is born of being a young country that had to do just that in order to survive as colonists, break with a world power, expand, and become a world power in our own rite. The flipside is that we tend to think that this can be done with anything, and sometimes, we just don't have the background to do it.

Some Americans do found new styles the right way. Many do not. To be fair, we've had a goodly amount of 'the wrong way' being done by easterners right along side of us. Easterners who got on a plane in the orient as third dan and got off of the plane as ninth dan venti supremo grandmasters. Once we saw that they could do it, then why not us?

Just a few observations. I make no judgements about anyone creating a style until I have experienced it myself or studied its history fairly extensively. Needless to say, I haven't made very many judgements about new styles.

Daniel
 

Ninebird8

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Well put Celtic Tiger, I like your points and the way you stated them! Most of the time at least we will credit those who act as the basis point.
 
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Burnerbob

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Not just Americans promoting themselves from low to high dan.
I have met two Koreans who did just that. One even made himself a "Tenth Degree", and when I mentioned that there were only "Ninth Degree" in Tae Kwon Do, he replied "This is my style".
The other worked for a well known Korean Master, and decided to open his own DoJang. Went from second degree to sixth just coming to Long Island. But no one ever chastised these individuals, why because they were "Oriental" and it was taken for granted that they were whom they claimed to be.
 

Xue Sheng

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Xue, I think that a lot of the problem with westerners accepting things at face value has to do with the fact that eastern martial arts have only been in the states as a real presence since the late forties, and that's being generous. On the other hand, a Chinese man of a hundred and seven would never have known a time that the traditional arts were not around.

For westerners, MA still has that shiney, new, 'ooh' ah cool factor. It's worn off a bit, which is why when a "new style" is introduced, it reignites the new-cool factor for some.

Lastly, Americans are truly talented at reinventing things, systemetizing things, and improving things. Yankee ingenuity, we like to call it. And we are. This mentality is born of being a young country that had to do just that in order to survive as colonists, break with a world power, expand, and become a world power in our own rite. The flipside is that we tend to think that this can be done with anything, and sometimes, we just don't have the background to do it.

Some Americans do found new styles the right way. Many do not. To be fair, we've had a goodly amount of 'the wrong way' being done by easterners right along side of us. Easterners who got on a plane in the orient as third dan and got off of the plane as ninth dan venti supremo grandmasters. Once we saw that they could do it, then why not us?

Just a few observations. I make no judgements about anyone creating a style until I have experienced it myself or studied its history fairly extensively. Needless to say, I haven't made very many judgements about new styles.

Daniel

I will add this as well when it comes to the west and someone form the east.

A man from China or Japan shows up in the west claiming a "NEW" style that he learned form monks or ninja or Taoists or any other symbol of the east that has been associated with MA and he will make a million dollars. That same guy goes to Japan or China and he gets laughed out of the room.... or asked to prove its worth.

We buy an awful lot, hook line and sinker, here in the west just because of where the salesman is from and rarely do the research to see if it is true or for that matter even possible. Someone tells me they learned Taiji from Yang Shaohou they better be Chinese and at least 88 years old but if they make that claim to others they could easily get away with it.

But as to new styles I agree in some cases it is exactly what you have said. In others it is our western impatient that makes us want everything now and we do not want to take the time to actually “learn’ a given style when it is easier to combine it with something else, rename it, take credit for it and make money off of it.

If an American, European or any other person from the West takes the time to “REALLY” train multiple styles and then through study and trial and error comes up with a way or a style he likes better or believes is better and then goes off to teach it I am all for it. However it is the impatient ones I have a problem with
 

Xue Sheng

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Not just Americans promoting themselves from low to high dan.
I have met two Koreans who did just that. One even made himself a "Tenth Degree", and when I mentioned that there were only "Ninth Degree" in Tae Kwon Do, he replied "This is my style".
The other worked for a well known Korean Master, and decided to open his own DoJang. Went from second degree to sixth just coming to Long Island. But no one ever chastised these individuals, why because they were "Oriental" and it was taken for granted that they were whom they claimed to be.

There are also Chinese martial artists that in China are only called Sifu that insist on being called Grandmaster here (The West) but in China they would never make that claim. There are Chinese MA websites that are in English and Chinese that on the Chinese page have "ONLY" Sifu, if that. But on the English version it has Grandmaster... what does that tell you about us in the west and their view of us.

China when talking Chinese MAist to Chinese MAist if one calls the other a grandmaster he is either being sarcastic or looking for a fight. This is true of the North and it use to be true of the South, although I am not certain if it is still true or not for the south.
 

Daniel Sullivan

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Not just Americans promoting themselves from low to high dan.
I have met two Koreans who did just that. One even made himself a "Tenth Degree", and when I mentioned that there were only "Ninth Degree" in Tae Kwon Do, he replied "This is my style".
The other worked for a well known Korean Master, and decided to open his own DoJang. Went from second degree to sixth just coming to Long Island. But no one ever chastised these individuals, why because they were "Oriental" and it was taken for granted that they were whom they claimed to be.
Well, I do believe that there is a legitimate tenth degree in taekwondo. Of course the holders are all dead, as it is a posthumous degree.

Daniel
 

Sukerkin

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I seem to be chiming in here as a bit of a Devil's Advocate, for which I apologise :eek:.

However, citing Korean self-promoters as a good example of precident for American's to do the same thing is possibly not the best way of promoting {Yeah! Rank based pun attack :D!} the point.

I know that there are a lot of TKD folks here at MT and I don't want to annoy them but it is the case that the whole history of the art has it's thorns and points of contention, so it is perhaps not a surprise that there have been some 'contended' escalations of rank.

Indeed, I suspect that there must be some such incidents in the JMA and CMA too.

My point is the old adage of "two wrongs not making a right" and that those Korean artists who embroidered their resume are no more held in high esteem than any other such 'embellisher'.
 

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However, citing Korean self-promoters as a good example of precident for American's to do the same thing is possibly not the best way of promoting {Yeah! Rank based pun attack :D!} the point.

I know that there are a lot of TKD folks here at MT and I don't want to annoy them but it is the case that the whole history of the art has it's thorns and points of contention, so it is perhaps not a surprise that there have been some 'contended' escalations of rank.

Welcome to the world of Kenpo.

I don't believe there is a 10th dan in kenpo, whose promotion to that rank wouldn't raise someone's eyebrows a bit if placed under close scrutiny, including Ed Parker and William Chow (who claimed 15th Dan, I believe, as a way of placing himself above all the others claiming 10th).

However, some of these people proved they were made of the right metal to support the claim, so their lineages have thrived. Others, not so much.
 
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