Honesty and Integrity

[John Bishop]

After seeing some of the members here come to the defense of some people who were proven to be frauds, criminals, or liars (no names mentioned), I just wanted to ask one question of the members.

Do you consider "Honesty" and "Intregrity" to be qualities important to the practice of the martial arts?


Note to moderators: If you feel this question is better asked in the "Bad Budo" section, please move it.

 

[John Bishop]

To the person who sent me a PM on this topic. I don't really care for discussions that can not be done in the open. The question I asked is self explanatory. No names were or will be mentioned by me.

Simple yes or no question: Is honesty and intregrity a important part of being a martial artist?

 

[tshadowchaser]

I think we have beaten this horse once to offten.
we all have our own ideas on what is legit and what is not . We all have our own standards or whom we will teach and what illegal activities we will tolerate.
Lets find something else to discuss.
Im sure with all your years of training and taching you can come up with other things to talk about.

 

[Ken JP Stuczynski]

:deadhorse:

?

Yes, it's been brought up over and over everywhere. Why? Because there seems to be a segment of the MA population that believes the arts have no higher purpose than mere pugilism, and character (or righteousness, rather) is determined by who beats up whom.

And as long as there is a segment whom will not accept the bad with the good, there will be more than just polls. I for one would like the sheep seperated from the goats on this one.

 

[John Bishop]

No names, schools, styles, techniques, associations, or instructors have been mentioned.

So, why would someone feel threatened by a simple question about honesty and intregrity?

 

[A.R.K.]

John,

I suppose it's because your question has an obvious answer. I would think that if you truly had proof that a MT member was making fraudulent claims, lying about something related to the arts or has indeed committed a crime that you would post the proof in bad budo for all of us to review. And if appropriate to be forwarned.

As it is, this simply seems to be bringing back up personal unsubstantiated opinions from the past. There is simply no need for this. There is far to much positive to be explored, discussed and debated to waste more time on negative gossip, hurt feelings and personality conflicts.

If there is proof, post it appropriately, if not, lets move on to better topics.

:asian:

 

[tshadowchaser]

No problem here. I just thought the subject had been talked about befor.
And I know you have a world of knowledge to bring up other topics with.
We would have to define honesty and Integrity first then see where it goes. As long as it keeps away from nameng names and stays in the general generic talk I say ok but if it strays into nameing names evryone has been warned already.
So lets have some definitions to work off and see if there is any disagreement on the terms to begin with.
I'm signing off for the night (sleep and all that) but I'll check this thread tomorrow to see where it has gone.
tshadowchaser:asian:

 

[Bob Hubbard]

Because too often there is a hidden meaning behind the question.

Note, I do not think this of this question, so please no offence is meant.


Do I think Honesty and Integrety are important qualities?

Yes, I do.


Do I think both are lacking, especially amongst many of my supposed seniors?

Yes I do.

But, I'm the beginner who thinks that there is something deeper to be found in the arts, beyond cool ways to beat people up. I believe that somewhere beyond the posturing, politics, scheming, plotting, planning, and other BS there is something almost spiritual to be found.

Someday, I hope I find it.
:asian:

 

[DAC..florida]

I agree with ARK on this topic, been there done that!

They above statements even though they are not naming names ect. everyone knows what individuals you are refering to, if you have evidence or questions for certain individuals start a thread in the bad budo forum and stop beating around the bush, if not then stop beating the dead horse and let it go!
:asian:

 

[John Bishop]

Kaith:
Your going to find what your looking for. The vast majority of the people that I have met in the martial arts are very dedicated, honorable people who share a love of the arts.
Like anything else, it's the bad ones that get the press or attention, so sometimes we think everyone must be like them.

But what I hope this poll will show is that the silent majority still believe in and practice one of the main precepts of the martial arts. As Gichen Funakoshi put it, "to seek perfection of character".

 

[A.R.K.]

The vast majority of the people that I have met in the martial arts are very dedicated, honorable people who share a love of the arts.

Agree 100% John. It is to bad we as a whole cannot purge out the politics, the BS, the ego's and attitudes. Most people simply wish to train for a purpose that is personal to them. And it is a true shame when they are unfortunate enough to get hooked up with those who are more concerned with the almighty $ than developing good students.

The good news however, is that there is more good than bad...and always will be. It is up to you, and I and others to provide good, sound advice and information to those who are coming after us. Lead by example is a good motto to follow for all of us.

Along with honesty and integrity I would also add humility, honor and genuine concern for others. Take care.

:asian:

 

[Shuri-te]

Some have expressed the idea that virtually all of the people they have dealt with in the MAs are filled with honesty and integrity. I sure wish I could claim the same experiences. I have been exposed to all too many people that, IMHO, are sorely lacking in those traits.

I will keep my comments to the karate systems I have been most closely associated with. Let me give a few choice examples from the highest level of the profession, where one might expect exemplary honesty and integrity.

1. How about the respected Okinawan head master who collected $2000 from a U.S. dojo for plane fare to the U.S. and then decided not to take the trip and keep the money.

2. How about the respected Japanese head master who got sloshed the night before a U.S. tournament in his honor, and decided he was too hung-over to attend.

3. How about the respected Japanese head master who arrived 40 minutes late to a 2 hour seminar for 100 students because he was peeved at some slight offense the dojo owner had committed.

4. How about the respected Japanese head master who has concocted an absurd story about his early training in the temple, and how his art has been practiced in the temple unchanged for a thousand years. (And his art just so happens to include Shotokan kata, which arrived in Japan 80 years ago.)

5. How about the respected Japanese head master who bragged how he changed all his kata every time a senior student left (fairly frequently), so that the head master could claim that ex-students were no longer doing his kata. The minor side-effect was that his thousands of students were continually out of the loop as to what the kata actually looked like, and were always scrambling to learn the latest versions.

I think in much of the martial arts, there are two factors that help send honesty and integrity out the window.

First, most martial arts schools are very different from other services offered to customers since the teacher wields near absolute authority. If he develops a big ego along with his big rank, he gets to exercise it whenever he feels like it. There are still schools today where the instructor carries around a stick and whacks students who make a mistake. And in places with no stick, there is a virtual stick in the form of yelling and general nastiness. There is an old saying that power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely.

Second, in many systems, the top dog gets to collect annual dues and menjo fees. Menjo fees can be exorbitant for dan ranks (Several hundred dollars, if not more.) Some instructors have dojos, that they rarely visit, and still continue to collect annual dues fees. I have known of several dojos where the top dog collects all the monthly student charges as well. In these, the senior student doing all the teaching might receive a small stipend, but in other cases it is pro bono. Perhaps there is something to the old saying that money is the root of all evil.

In many situations, the top dog runs a virtual monopoly. Students who make a big investment in a system are often reluctant to jump ship and start anew. And in many cases, the school may be the only one for many miles and therefore travel to another system isn't feasible. So the top dog can charge exorbitant fees and treat students like dirt whenever he so desires.

The simple truth is that martial artists, are just people. If you look at a group of 100 of them, the amount of honesty and integrity is arguably about what you would find in any random group of 100 people. People train in MA for all sorts of reasons: to be better able to defend themselves, to be better able to kick some assets, to develop confidence, to stay in shape or get in shape, to lose weight, to meet people, or maybe just because their parents found them a good afternoon babysitter. IMO, few train solely to improve their character, and for the few that might be successful at it, I would be surprised if it affected much, the overall level of honesty and integrity found within the MA community.

Many psychologists might argue that personality traits, such as honesty and integrity, tend to be formed pretty early on in life, and therefore joining a MA school and going for a few hours per week, especially later in life (20s, or 30s) should not be expected to have much effect on the overall character development of a person.

Sartre said "Hell is other people." My experience is that is just as true in the world of martial arts as anywhere else, but with one big exception. In martial arts, the higher ranks get to smack lower ranks upside the head when they think they are getting out of line.

 

[John Bishop]

If I remember correctly the last industry survey showed about 7 million martial artists in America. So you would have to come up with a lot more examples than the ones listed to show me that it is the few instead of the majority that lack intregrity and honesty.

And there has been published psychological research that showed that martial arts practice when done properly improved the character (self disipline, goal setting, work ethic, etc.) of the individual practitioner.

But more importantly Shuri-te, after reading your opinion of the martial arts, I have one question.

It may not be my business, but why do you practice the martial arts?

 

[Ken JP Stuczynski]

... is that half the poeple out there who study "the arts" are in complete denial of any benefit from the spiritual or moral side of what they do. And they don't care.

They are welcome to that, but should not call it "martial ARTS" if they lack virtue in what they do.

I don't want to be in the same category as these people. The vast majority of shcools, if not a McDojo altogether, are more about politics and machisma than any "art".

 

[Shuri-te]

John Bishop stated:

Shuri-te, after reading your opinion of the martial arts, I have one question. It may not be my business, but why do you practice the martial arts?

I think you might have misunderstood my point. I was in no way commenting on the martial arts. I was commenting on people in general and how one shouldn't expect to find the martial arts to be some utopia of integrity and honesty. Regarding my small sample size, I described incidents not of students in general, but of a tiny subset: Japanese and Okinawan-born head masters of mainline karate systems. My point was that if one expected honesty and integrity to improve with years of training, one would expect virtually all head masters to be beyond reproach. But they aren't. They are just people. Some are honest with integrity, some aren't.

Regarding the psychological research you cited, from your description, I am not sure what validity it has on the topic of integrity and honesty in the martial arts. You listed the following benefits: "self discipline, goal setting, work ethic, etc." I know plenty of dishonest martial artists with little integrity who are very self-disciplined, have a great work ethic and are good at setting and achieving goals. Like many humans, they are remarkably successful at using all of these skills to make others miserable. And in the dojo, they are empowered to do just that. Many students put up with lots of their poor treatment because they are also dedicated to their art and have little in the way of alternatives. The pros outweigh the cons. They want to train and promote and they are stuck.

Regarding why I study the arts, the reasons are too many to do justice here. I have had a passion for them for 30 years. I believe the old masters created great works of art in the kata they have handed down, and I find pride in being part of the heritage of practicing and teaching their art. I find great value in practicing kata. It is meditative, and great for good health. And on top of that, I greatly improve my ability to defend myself, because inherent in the patterns of Okinawan kata are some of the best self-defense combinations I have ever seen.

I also derive great personal benefit from sharing ideas with those that are interested. To me, the exchange of MA's ideas with other serious students is one of the great pleasures in life, and there is little I enjoy more than helping my students to better master their art.

One last point. Despite having had interactions with numerous shady people in the arts, I have also established great relationships with many, many martial artists: teachers, peers, and especially the many students I have had the good fortune to help train. It is just that in my experience regarding karate teachers, there is, if anything, an inverse correlation of years training to honesty and integrity.

This is not to say that more training lowers honesty or integrity, as correlation is not causation. For that, I described two other factors in my previous post: power and money. It is my experience that those two factors probably are the cause of much that is bad in the martial arts, and if training really gave you more integrity and made you more honest, many dojo owners would have to train a couple of lifetimes to overcome these factors.

 

[Cruentus]

I think lack of integrity is one of the biggest problems with the martial arts.

Most problems in the martial arts "world" are due to lack of integrity, whether it is lying about yourself or art/instructor/etc., or accusing someone else without any proof or reason to back the claim.

This is just my opinion.

 

[Ender]

should honesty and integrity be part of the martial arts? yes

part of business? yes

part of sports? yes

part of healthcare? yes.....and on and on.

I think the point is made.

 

[Bob Hubbard]

The majority seems to think that Honesty and Integrety do matter... Heres the important question then...

Why does it seem like they are so lacking?

People post on msg board under false names, hiding their true identities, knowing full well that verification is not posible. They then go on to plot, scheme, insult, whatever. Often times, these are the same people who are held up to be role models in the arts.

The McDojos are a well known case of lack of honesty and integrety.

Too many times "I shared an elevator" becomes "I was a personal student of" it seems.

Why the lies, deceit and other stuff?

What about those who are legitimately 'real', yet seem to think that they are so far above us mean mortals?

Honesty and Intgrety are important.

How about Humility and Compassion?

What about Honor and Valour?


Too many times, greed, selfishness, pride and vanity seem to rule.
A pity too. I think too many people miss the real rewards and joys in their search for a buck, or an 'attaboy'.

Peace.
:asian:

 

[Shuri-te]

Kaith,

I'm not sure it could be better said.

 

[molson]

I couldn't agree more.... Integrity is lacking in many