Holding bricks when you punch

[Kung Fu Wang]

And if you use weight to early in your training you depend to much on the external and strength and you end up with a slow Changquan.

I don't use bricks to train "speed" or "punching power" but to develop "body coordination (external 3 harmonies)" and "body structure". A simple example is, when your opponent runs toward you and tries to knock your head off, you use your front toe push kick to hit on his chest. If his forward momentum can

- collapse your structure and alter the relationship between your leg and your body, you don't have good structure.
- not push your body back and also does not alter the relationship between your leg and your body, you have good structure.

In my personal experience, the brick training can enhance my Peng Jin (body structure). When you try to push your opponent's upper body and hook his leg at the same time to throw him, Your upper body pushing should have good structure. No matter how strong that your opponent may resist, his resistance should not collapse your own structure. The brick training can help you to enhance that.

 

[drop bear]

I'm don't compete at all.

The training that I've received places a very (VERY!!) heavy focus on the mechanics of developing a punch that comes from the root, goes up the legs, thru the torso, and out the fist, with full-body connection and power coming from the legs. I've never seen any other method or school that has placed such a heavy focus on this. It's something we look very very closely at. Full-body connection with our strikes is what the entire system is built upon. I've learned to recognize the signs when someone lacks that connection, and I see those signs everywhere, with just about everyone. That includes a lot of people with a lot of training, and people wearing some damn high rank.

You do realise that punching using your whole body is not a super secret secret?


Here is another system that uses full body connection with their strikes.

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Btkx50ZdxeQ

 

[RTKDCMB]

Yes people should abandon athleticism and strength to gain that advantage of what exactly?

Good technique is about using that strength and athleticism more effectively, its not an either/or kind of situation.

 

[drop bear]

Good technique is about using that strength and athleticism more effectively, its not an either/or kind of situation.

Yeah I know.

 

[Flying Crane]

You do realise that punching using your whole body is not a super secret secret?


Here is another system that uses full body connection with their strikes.

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Btkx50ZdxeQ

of course. most systems claim to do it and try to do it. Most people fail.

 

[RTKDCMB]

however, I disagree with what you are saying, because body mechanics and the effects of gravity on the body remain the same, regardless of system.

Adding the weights to the arms however does affect the loading on the body during the punch or strike by changing the center of gravity and the distribution of the mass.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

of course. most systems claim to do it and try to do it. Most people fail.

The "power" and "speed" are trade off. It's difficult to have both at the same time. A simple example, when you see a fly that flies in front of your face, you use your hands to clap it. Do you have enough time to borrow your force from the ground, going through your leg, body, shoulder, and finally reach to your hands, or will you let your hands to move first, your body then follow?

When you

- train, you let your body to push your arm. Your power come from the bottom to up, back to front.
- fight, you may have to let your arm to pull your body.

The reason is simple. In fighting, you prefer to hit your fast moving opponent with 50% of your power than to miss your target with 100% of your power generation.

I have searching "maximum power generation" and "maximum speed generation" all my life. The day that I understood the trade off issue, both subjects no longer interested me any more.

In the following CXW's "Chen Taiji" Fajin clip, it takes him 1 second to "compress" and "release". In fighting, you just don't have that 1 full second. When you only have 1/4 second, you may only "compress" 1/4 of your power. But you have to release it otherwise your moving target will be gone.

Same speed issue also exist in the "Baji" system.

and the "XingYi Lu He" system.

The "praying mantis" has "good speed" but may have some "power issue".

 

[drop bear]

of course. most systems claim to do it and try to do it. Most people fail.

So you do have the super secret secret. That you think nobody else has. And of course you have tested this?


You have to understand my point of view. That you haven't show an any punching power or effectiveness. Or shown people who have. But you want me to believe you have this step up on everybody and you know this because you can tell.by looking.

Everybody else who is actually effectively punching people are wrong. People who compete at punching people are wrong. But you are right.

Remember when I said pulling things out of the air?

 

[K-man]

of course. most systems claim to do it and try to do it. Most people fail.

Michael, FWIW I understand what you are saying and I agree completely with you. Most people haven't seen what you are describing and the more ignorant might be inclined to think that because they haven't experienced it for themselves it cannot exist. I would hope there wouldn't be too many like that on this forum.

But, for me, I haven't seen anything on this thread that impresses me either.
:asian:

 

[drop bear]

Michael, FWIW I understand what you are saying and I agree completely with you. Most people haven't seen what you are describing and the more ignorant might be inclined to think that because they haven't experienced it for themselves it cannot exist. I would hope there wouldn't be too many like that on this forum.

But, for me, I haven't seen anything on this thread that impresses me either.
:asian:

There has been no proof at all that it exists. I am not sure how asking for proof is ignorant.

Show me the successful strikers that don't like weighted punching.

 

[wingchun100]

I don't think you always have to sacrifice power for speed or vice versa. After all, there is an old physics equation that can apply here:

Force=Mass x Acceleration

 

[K-man]

There has been no proof at all that it exists. I am not sure how asking for proof is ignorant.

Show me the successful strikers that don't like weighted punching.

If the cap fits! Mate, we practise what Michael had described all the time. I taught it in my Krav class tonight. You want proof it is there to find if you are prepared to look. I found it about ten years ago and have been teaching it ever since. I don't particularly care if you don't believe it exists. That is your choice.

I don't think you always have to sacrifice power for speed or vice versa. After all, there is an old physics equation that can apply here:

Force=Mass x Acceleration

And in the martial arts, as Michael tried to explain to you on more than one occasion, there is far more to punching than meets the eye.
:asian:

 

[Flying Crane]

So you do have the super secret secret. That you think nobody else has.

you are an odd duck, sir.

You have to understand my point of view. That you haven't show an any punching power or effectiveness. Or shown people who have. But you want me to believe you have this step up on everybody and you know this because you can tell.by looking.

meh. we are having a discussion that you seem to want to pursue. in the end, i don't care what you believe.

Everybody else who is actually effectively punching people are wrong. People who compete at punching people are wrong. But you are right.

i see your memory is faulty again, so i've linked back to one of several places where i've addressed this...

I rely more heavily on the strength in my legs and torso, to drive my punch. Upper body strength is also useful, but not as important if you understand how to properly drive the punch from your root. If you do not understand how to do that, then upper body strength becomes much more important because the technique defaults to being driven with upper body strength. Yes it can still be effective, but it's not the best way. The upper reaches of power are more limited, and you end up working a lot harder to generate the same kind of power as what you can get from the root.



It isn't, at least not automatically. When someone doesn't understand how to properly connect his legs and torso to drive the punch, then he ends up driving the punch with upper body strength. He "muscles" the technique. As I keep saying, that can be effective. However, it depends on how strong one is in the arms and shoulders. A big person who is strong and athletic may have great success with it, but a smaller person who is not so strong and athletic may not be able to generate effective power that way. When you can use the lower body to effectively drive your strike, you do not need to be as strong in the upper body, but you can still get the same kind (or even greater) power. In that case, what is truly necessary in terms of the strength of the upper body is just what is required to know that the punch itself is stable and won't collapse or lead to injury when you land it. You don't need the excess strength that you would need to create that power in the first place, because that power comes from the legs and torso, not the arms and shoulders.

 

[Flying Crane]

You do realise that punching using your whole body is not a super secret secret?


Here is another system that uses full body connection with their strikes.

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Btkx50ZdxeQ

i finally had a chance to watch the video. I'll give a critique, so you might understand what I'm looking at.

He's onto the right idea, tho how he expresses it physically is different than how I would. If you really want power, keep the back heel down and drive that back foot into the ground and use it to drive the body rotation. He lifts the heel and drives back with the ball of the foot. But he's got the right general idea.

However, when he shows the punch at full speed, watch closely: he rotates the body FIRST, and punches SECOND. His punches actually come after the body rotation is completed. That is one telltale sign that he hasn't really got it. That body rotation needs to be happening at the same time the fist is going out. Otherwise, he's just arm-punching. The body rotation has already stopped, so it's no longer giving power to the punch. They need to happen together.

This is a good example of someone who believes he's doing it, but he's not. He's rotating and putting his body behind it, driving from the back leg, so he has reason to believe he's doing it. But his timing and coordination are off, it's not matched with the punch. So in reality he isn't doing it.

That's the kind of thing that I look for, and that's why I say, most everyone believes they are doing this, but most people fail. The devil is in the little details, and the little details make a HUGE difference.

 

[Flying Crane]

The "power" and "speed" are trade off. It's difficult to have both at the same time. A simple example, when you see a fly that flies in front of your face, you use your hands to clap it. Do you have enough time to borrow your force from the ground, going through your leg, body, shoulder, and finally reach to your hands, or will you let your hands to move first, your body then follow?

When you

- train, you let your body to push your arm. Your power come from the bottom to up, back to front.
- fight, you may have to let your arm to pull your body.

The reason is simple. In fighting, you prefer to hit your fast moving opponent with 50% of your power than to miss your target with 100% of your power generation.

I have searching "maximum power generation" and "maximum speed generation" all my life. The day that I understood the trade off issue, both subjects no longer interested me any more.

In the following CXW's "Chen Taiji" Fajin clip, it takes him 1 second to "compress" and "release". In fighting, you just don't have that 1 full second. When you only have 1/4 second, you may only "compress" 1/4 of your power. But you have to release it otherwise your moving target will be gone.

in the chaos of combat, everything breaks down and degenerates. That's why it's important to train with the highest quality in your technique that you can. So when it does break down under pressure and combat, you'll still have something left that is effective. If you train with crap, then when it breaks down under chaos load, you'll have little or nothing left, perhaps not enough to be effective at all.

The "praying mantis" has "good speed" but may have some "power issue".

on a personal note, I know Brendan Lai's wife and son, and I discovered a few days ago that they apparently have closed their martial arts supply shop. I stopped by to see them, and the space where the shop has been located for the last few years is empty. So sad.

 

[Flying Crane]

There has been no proof at all that it exists. I am not sure how asking for proof is ignorant.

Show me the successful strikers that don't like weighted punching.

I cannot offer you real proof over the internet. It's something you kinda need to experience first hand. Not everything in life is (or can be) documented on Youtube. Don't make the mistake of believing otherwise.

 

[James Kovacich]

in the chaos of combat, everything breaks down and degenerates. That's why it's important to train with the highest quality in your technique that you can. So when it does break down under pressure and combat, you'll still have something left that is effective. If you train with crap, then when it breaks down under chaos load, you'll have little or nothing left, perhaps not enough to be effective at all.



on a personal note, I know Brendan Lai's wife and son, and I discovered a few days ago that they apparently have closed their martial arts supply shop. I stopped by to see them, and the space where the shop has been located for the last few years is empty. So sad.

Back in the '70's I used to ride the bart to SF and we would visit his school to look at his supplie for sale which we had no money for. I think it was California St. That street somehow comes to mind.



Sent from my DROID3 using Tapatalk 2

 

[Xue Sheng]

I don't use bricks to train "speed" or "punching power" but to develop "body coordination (external 3 harmonies)" and "body structure". A simple example is, when your opponent runs toward you and tries to knock your head off, you use your front toe push kick to hit on his chest. If his forward momentum can

- collapse your structure and alter the relationship between your leg and your body, you don't have good structure.
- not push your body back and also does not alter the relationship between your leg and your body, you have good structure.

In my personal experience, the brick training can enhance my Peng Jin (body structure). When you try to push your opponent's upper body and hook his leg at the same time to throw him, Your upper body pushing should have good structure. No matter how strong that your opponent may resist, his resistance should not collapse your own structure. The brick training can help you to enhance that.

I am not disagreeing with you but I am saying in its proper time.

I am not saying you are doing anything wrong and I am not talking about speed and power either. Any training with weights doing taijiquan too early in your training is, to me, counter productive. To early and you have no idea what coordination of the upper and lower are or how they work. You know nothing of how the 6 harmonies work you know nothing about Yi, Qi, Li, opening closing, sinking, etc. you know nothing about any of the basics of taijiquan so jumping into training with weights in the form (Bricks or any other heavy object) only trains you to use muscular strength like is used in Changquan in early stages.

Now if you train taijiquan for a while and then get into this I see no problem with it at all and to be honest I see some benefit to it, but you have to be REAL cognizant of your structure because it would be real easy to revert to depending solely on strength in the arms and shoulders and forget about root, waist and how energy moves from point A to point Z in taijiquan.

 

[Xue Sheng]

There has been no proof at all that it exists. I am not sure how asking for proof is ignorant.

Show me the successful strikers that don't like weighted punching.

My last Sanda (police/military not sport) shifu never did weighted punches and he hit like a truck. He did train a lot (and still does) hitting trees however and he throws hundreds of punches and kicks a day, but none with weights. I have also come across many in Xingyiquan that hit like a truck as well and there is no weighted strike training there.

 

[Grenadier]

Yes people should abandon athleticism and strength to gain that advantage of what exactly?

Look you are going to struggle to convince me that being weak is somehow beneficial to technique but give it a go. I am interested to see how this train of thought goes.

I don't believe that anyone is suggesting that someone become physically weaker in order to gain benefits...

Of course, all other things being perfectly equal, the bigger, stronger, and faster person is going to be much more likely to win. Nobody is going to dispute this.

In the end, though, someone is going to gain more benefits by refining his mechanics, than by simply increasing physical strength. He'll be able to punch with more force, using less perceived effort, and won't tire out as easily as someone trying to put more raw physical arm strength into a punch.

Will the person who tried to increase arm strength be better off than the person who did nothing at all? Yes, but how much will he have improved compared to someone else who spent time learning how to throw a punch with better mechanics?

Think of it this way... If you have two baseball pitchers, both of somewhat similar attributes from the start, and have one train in trying to increase his arm strength in order to add a few more MPH's to his fastball, and have the other try to use his lower body to better propel his upper body by refining his mechanics, I can already tell you who is going to be the better pitcher, and that the latter is going to outlast the former. Think of it like comparing Nolan Ryan to Rob Dibble. Both could throw 100+ MPH heat on a regular basis, but one's career lasted for decades, while the other fizzled out in just a handful of years.