Ho Kam Ming wing chun

[Vajramusti]

@geezer

As I have observed in other lineages, what they call jam-sau is an action whereby the forearm is used to sink down on the opponent's arm as a block. Rather than the elbow coming in and forward, it is the distal end of the forearm that does the job. Often the wrist drops low (as in LT's SNT after laan-sau) because the mind is more in the distal than proximal end of the forearm.

It has nothing to do with punching. Even when they have something they call jam-sau, it is the idea of jam elbow for punch training that is missing in other lineages. This means each stage of development that should be using this idea, instead has it replaced with techniques like jat-sau, and on the opposite end, taan-sau gets treated as a fighting technique as well. This is because the interaction between taan and jam elbows is missing! As a result, the entire system loses its coherence and becomes about techniques.

 

[Vajramusti]

I can jut sao or jam sao against an incoming strike in dahn chi sao.
More often I use the jut. And I can strike from jut.

The timing and structural dynamics learned in dahn chi sao can be applied and used in real fighting if one knows what they are doing and understand incoming forces. openings, timing and control of ones actions.

Dahn chi sao is not fighting-it is for development of key attributes. The distinction between development and application helps understand many things in the martial arts and even in boxing.
The peanut speed bag helps develop some attributes. Applying the lessons learned is different.

As folks get further down the line from good sifus-they can get dogmatic. Seems to be the case with a couple of folks here. Gets boring.

 

[yak sao]

As folks get further down the line from good sifus-they can get dogmatic. Seems to be the case with a couple of folks here. Gets boring.

I agree. This forum has spiraled downward in recent months.

 

[Danny T]

I'd also add in response to the remarks about something not being in a form.
Form is the reference material. Especially true of SLT. Just because something isn't in form doesn't mean it isn't in the system or the training. In wing chun as I learned it just because something is in one form but not in another doesn't mean it isn't applicable within the understanding nor relate or enhance other aspects of the system. All are interrelated Drills that develop attributes are drills not fighting. I've said it several times in other threads; F-D-A, Forms - Drills - Applications and the applications may not look like the form or the drills.

 

[guy b.]

I can jut sao or jam sao against an incoming strike in dahn chi sao.
More often I use the jut. And I can strike from jut.

So when you jut in dan chi are you training to jut and deflect as a first reaction to pressure from contact?

The timing and structural dynamics learned in dahn chi sao can be applied and used in real fighting if one knows what they are doing and understand incoming forces. openings, timing and control of ones actions.

I don't think I do understand. Can you be more specific please? Which forces do you apply in dan chi sau?

Dahn chi sao is not fighting-it is for development of key attributes.

This is useful; which attributes are you developing in dan chi sau?

The distinction between development and application helps understand many things in the martial arts and even in boxing.
The peanut speed bag helps develop some attributes. Applying the lessons learned is different.

I agree. The first step is understanding what the lessons are! If different lines of wing chun are to understand each other then a discussion of what these differences are is essential.

As folks get further down the line from good sifus-they can get dogmatic. Seems to be the case with a couple of folks here. Gets boring.

I think that varies from person to person, nothing really to do with how close to a particular teacher a person is. All teachers had teachers and teachers teachers.

 

[guy b.]

I agree. This forum has spiraled downward in recent months.

Then participate in order to improve it

 

[Wing Chun Auckland]

Hi there,

There's HKM video that perked my interest and curiosity. Maybe Vajramusti can help, but I totally get and respect what he have been saying in terms of responding to the hundreds of questions people have.

Anyway, in this youtube clip, there are people training in a room doing SNT etc. All appear to be Chinese. HKM is sitting down and there is a lady sitting in front of him. She appears to holding a tan sau out. He is holding her tan sau from the under side of her forearm as I remember. They appear to be just holding this position for a long time. I wonder what they are doing. It looks like internal training of some kind which I am highly interested in.

 

[Wing Chun Auckland]

Oh found it! Here it is:

 

[Vajramusti]

He is directing the steady motion of the elbow along the right path- among other things

 

[LFJ]

Interesting.
Can you not attack from your Fuk? Can't jut cut his bong motion?

That's what I'm saying you should do. Yet you are instead using a defensive action, i.e. not a strike, responding by dropping your wrist on the opening attack from the partner. This seems to be because you don't have the same jam elbow idea for punching to attack the attack. Even when you jam, from your description it sounds as if you are still thinking block to gain position, then strike. It's two steps against the opponent's one strike. At least my VT is not designed to work like that. The lin-siu-daai-da principle means we defend with the elbow while striking in one action. The most efficient way = VT thinking.

What happens in free fighting you attack, he attacks and he has a better and stronger position? You just continue your attack anyway?

Yes, by means of a helping action like jat, paak, or bong depending on what happened. I find many people will use these helping actions prematurely, as an opening response, or even looking to attack an arm to create an entry when they should just be punching. This is because they lack the taan and jam elbow ideas for striking which allow us to defend the central line with the elbow as we strike; lin-siu-daai-da principle with a single arm. Missing from the thinking of many.

What I'm saying is, jat-sau is used from an extended position where it is okay to sharply jerk slightly down and back from the elbow because it puts us in a next-hit position to sustain attack. The punches at the end of SNT have an element of jat to them on the recycle as the line is cleared for the following punch.

To jat from a neutral position would mean either the elbow comes back from the "fixed position", or as you do it, you are forced to keep your elbow in place and drop the wrist. This not only lacks jolting power by not using the elbow, but also ruins the hit-ready position by dropping the wrist too low and creating a gap. A problem with wrist-led actions is that there is no natural limit and it is easy to overshoot or cross center in high stress situations, whereas the elbow doesn't have such risks due to natural limits. That's why we focus so much on the elbow; to reduce chances of error and to remove the necessity to think at high speeds.

DCS is taan elbow vs jam elbow; strike vs strike. We learn elbow to center and strike. Comes from pole fighting methods. But many don't have this idea, and instead block then punch (2 moves) in response to the partner's palm (1 move). Inefficient, not VT thinking.

 

[LFJ]

The timing and structural dynamics learned in dahn chi sao can be applied and used in real fighting if one knows what they are doing and understand incoming forces. openings, timing and control of ones actions.

Dahn chi sao is not fighting-it is for development of key attributes. The distinction between development and application helps understand many things in the martial arts and even in boxing.

What key attributes are you developing by doing jat-sau in particular in DCS? It sounds as if you are training timing, control, etc. as it pertains specifically to jat-sau as a technique against an incoming strike, as a controlling action.

For us, we are training something abstract and related to the core strategy of the system; i.e. elbow control for lin-siu-daai-da capabilities in a single arm. Not a block, not a stick and control technique.

 

[LFJ]

I'd also add in response to the remarks about something not being in a form.
Form is the reference material. Especially true of SLT. Just because something isn't in form doesn't mean it isn't in the system or the training.

The point is not whether it's in a form or not. It's that if the idea of the jam elbow is missing from SNT, it pretty well guarantees it's missing in DCS, SCS, and the entire fighting strategy of the system. That's even if there is a jam-sau action but with a different interpretation, as long as it's missing the elbow idea of lin-siu-daai-da.

 

[dudewingchun]

All this over jam sau

 

[wckf92]

All this over jam sau

Yeah, the thread has drifted from HKM to Jam/DCS. We should have a "thread drifting off topic" button! This jam vs jut topic would have made for a great separate thread.
IMO and IME, the issue being discussed has a little to do with semantics, a little to do with kool-aid, and a lot to do with how each of us / WC lineages view DCS and its meaning and underlying fundamentals being trained.

 

[Vajramusti]

The thread has deteriorated to just noise and is a waste of time- mine anyway.

 

[guy b.]

That's what I'm saying you should do. Yet you are instead using a defensive action, i.e. not a strike, responding by dropping your wrist on the opening attack from the partner. This seems to be because you don't have the same jam elbow idea for punching to attack the attack. Even when you jam, from your description it sounds as if you are still thinking block to gain position, then strike. It's two steps against the opponent's one strike. At least my VT is not designed to work like that. The lin-siu-daai-da principle means we defend with the elbow while striking in one action. The most efficient way = VT thinking.



Yes, by means of a helping action like jat, paak, or bong depending on what happened. I find many people will use these helping actions prematurely, as an opening response, or even looking to attack an arm to create an entry when they should just be punching. This is because they lack the taan and jam elbow ideas for striking which allow us to defend the central line with the elbow as we strike; lin-siu-daai-da principle with a single arm. Missing from the thinking of many.

What I'm saying is, jat-sau is used from an extended position where it is okay to sharply jerk slightly down and back from the elbow because it puts us in a next-hit position to sustain attack. The punches at the end of SNT have an element of jat to them on the recycle as the line is cleared for the following punch.

To jat from a neutral position would mean either the elbow comes back from the "fixed position", or as you do it, you are forced to keep your elbow in place and drop the wrist. This not only lacks jolting power by not using the elbow, but also ruins the hit-ready position by dropping the wrist too low and creating a gap. A problem with wrist-led actions is that there is no natural limit and it is easy to overshoot or cross center in high stress situations, whereas the elbow doesn't have such risks due to natural limits. That's why we focus so much on the elbow; to reduce chances of error and to remove the necessity to think at high speeds.

DCS is taan elbow vs jam elbow; strike vs strike. We learn elbow to center and strike. Comes from pole fighting methods. But many don't have this idea, and instead block then punch (2 moves) in response to the partner's palm (1 move). Inefficient, not VT thinking.

This is an excellent post outlining the way that WSL VT works. Thanks for taking the time to write it.

It would be great if others could similarly explain the core concepts in their wing chun

 

[guy b.]

All this over jam sau

Is jam sau not importantant in CSL wing chun?

 

[Danny T]

Jam and jut, as been stated a couple of times, the way we use them can be used offensively, defensively, or in combination. It can be a dual purpose or single use in concert with opposite arm. If others don't it's all good. As far as I am concerned it works and that is a good thing.

 

[guy b.]

The thread has deteriorated to just noise and is a waste of time- mine anyway.

LFJ is the only person on this thread who has bothered to post specifics of the system he practices, which happens to be WSL VT.

If you find what he is saying to be just noise then why not post specifics of the HKM/Augustine Fong wing chun and steer the thread in a direction which you find to be information dense and not a waste of time? Just complaining about it seems a bit pointless, especially when the thread was made to discuss the HKM system which most of us have no knowledge of, beyond available youtube clips.

 

[LFJ]

The thread has deteriorated to just noise and is a waste of time- mine anyway.

Right, I would think it'd be more a waste of time to only give short, vague responses and then post to say your fingers are stuck in your ears now.

Why not address the issues I've raised and taken the time to give my perspective on? Unless you don't disagree with my points, explain how your method works.