Hikuta ??

[jks9199]

While I'm not a respected Egyptologist, I am an archaeologist and can make some speculation in this regard.

I would first like to point out that the ancient Egyptians seemed to pretty poor at keeping secrets. They wrote everything down. The walls of their temples and tombs were covered in information from the formula for making beer to the sacred, and secret, spells for protecting the dead on their journey. Priests even noted when they were scamming people with fake cat and falcon mummies.

In investigating ancient Egyptian martial arts I have found references to possibly three.

The first is wrestling,
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The second is a fighting skill or competition now known as Tahtib or stick fencing.
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The third is a little contentious. It is something called Sebek-Kha. It literally means "Crocodile Soul" and the term has been used to describe some practices also depicted at Medinet Habu, in which the figures are punching and kicking.

There are, of course, many depictions of soldiers using various weapons like maces, spears, and the khopesh.

As far as something like Kuta is concerned there is nothing.
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Its a tough ask for something like a technical concept to survive through possibly three thousand years, especially when the region it originated in is in frequent violent turmoil. It wasn't written down so it must be passed through oral tradition. Seems very unlikely to have survived unchanged, but then again perhaps that is why it is rubbish.

Great information; thanks. Just out of curiosity, are the words "Kuta" or "Hikuta" consistent with ancient Egyptian languages?

I'm not at all surprised that there is evidence of the existence of Egyptian martial arts; I'd expect it. What I know of the ancient Egyptian culture is that it was relatively highly developed and organized, and kept lots of records. I'd expect that they would have some systemization of military and martial skills. And I'd expect them to include wrestling, striking, and weapons. After all, there just aren't but so many ways to use the human body to fight. You can grab and grapple with someone, you can punch or kick them, or you can use tools to make your body more effective -- weapons.

I can even buy the idea that some sort of family tradition would be passed along for several generations. That seems to be a pretty common human drive, too.

What I'm skeptical of is the idea of some secret approach being passed along for 2000 or so years. I'm skeptical of the idea of a secret, apparently mercenary force, that nobody heard about. And, if you're going to make such claims, I'm asking for evidence. I'm looking to see the style have something recognizably unique (if you'll forgive something of an oxymoron) about the style. What little I've seen doesn't look like anything unusual.

Now, I'm not saying that the current proponents of Hikuta (or any of the other martial arts with similar claims) are deliberately lying. They could easily be simply repeating what they were told. It's even possible that DOK Lee is doing this, too. But I don't buy the claims being made about Kuta or Hikuta.

 

[dungeonworks]

MANswers is about the lamest show I ever seen. I do like the ladies they show, but it views on TV as any Maxim magazine (or the like) reads. I won't even mention how much I doubt the credibility of MANswer's answers to the questions.

....but they do show some fine ladies on there!

 

[Steel Tiger]

Great information; thanks. Just out of curiosity, are the words "Kuta" or "Hikuta" consistent with ancient Egyptian languages?

On the surface they is not inconsistent with ancient Egyptian, but there are a few problems. There are about six phases of linguisitic development in Egypt. The transcription and pronunciation we have is an extrapolation made by Champollion based on Demotic and Coptic Egyptian, which are from a much later time. By my estimation they would be pronounced:

Kuta = kuh'tay
Hikuta = heekuh'tay

I'm not at all surprised that there is evidence of the existence of Egyptian martial arts; I'd expect it. What I know of the ancient Egyptian culture is that it was relatively highly developed and organized, and kept lots of records. I'd expect that they would have some systemization of military and martial skills. And I'd expect them to include wrestling, striking, and weapons. After all, there just aren't but so many ways to use the human body to fight. You can grab and grapple with someone, you can punch or kick them, or you can use tools to make your body more effective -- weapons.

The Eastern Mediterranean should be described as another seat of systematised martial practice like India, China, Japan, and Southeast Asia. Unfortunately due to the constant movement of peoples, and the resulting conflicts, so much information has been lost that the Med is not being properly recognised.

What I'm skeptical of is the idea of some secret approach being passed along for 2000 or so years. I'm skeptical of the idea of a secret, apparently mercenary force, that nobody heard about. And, if you're going to make such claims, I'm asking for evidence. I'm looking to see the style have something recognizably unique (if you'll forgive something of an oxymoron) about the style. What little I've seen doesn't look like anything unusual.

Now, I'm not saying that the current proponents of Hikuta (or any of the other martial arts with similar claims) are deliberately lying. They could easily be simply repeating what they were told. It's even possible that DOK Lee is doing this, too. But I don't buy the claims being made about Kuta or Hikuta.

I too am sceptical about the secret elite military force disbanded is the '50s. There are lots of secret military units around nowadays but we know the unit designations but not much else (Delta Force, SAS, SBS, Snow Wolf Commando Unit [from China]); secret means something different to the military.

There is a genuine difficulty in keeping information consistent and continuous over thousands of years. What is the oldest MA in China? Shuai Jiao is likely to be it, but is what we do now the same as 2000 years ago? No probably not. The first recorded MA in Japan is Sumo and that goes back to the Heian period when the match was won with a kick to the ribs. Try that today and see what happens. And just look at what has happened in Karate/TKD in the last 100 years.

We always hear claims of great antiquity in the martial arts, and I think we want it to be true, but the reality is that they change a lot. As a result it is difficult to credit any claims of vast age without some form of evidence beyond the repeated chantings of zealots.

 

[Xue Sheng]

You tell me

Hikuta
Chin Jab (modified with Kuta)

I will not comment since I will not say anythiing that I have not already said about such things in past posts.

 

[punisher73]

Other than the guy looking to take a fall in the last video clip. I didn't see the demonstrator doing anything that I haven't seen in other MA's to increase the power of a strike.

That being said. Kuta, could actually (only seen the one video clip) be an effective self-defense system as far as it's methodologies and techniques it uses. The part I think everyone agrees on is it's history, or lack of. It seems like people still have the idea when it comes to martial arts that "older is better" so instead of standing by their own accomplishment they create a false history to show how effective what they do is and is usually accompanied by the throwing in of the super secret squirrel military units that don't exist on paper so you can't know they existed to prove that they don't exist.

 

[BlackCatBonz]

MANswers rocks!!

How else could we be having this great discussion!

Why don't they just settle it and throw the dude in with a bear......or did someone suggest that already?

 

[tellner]

I wonder why the old egyptians, having knowledge of this omnipotent martial art, did not just obliterate all their enemies and rule the world?

Consider the tedious regularity with which they got trounced when they ventured outside the Nile Valley and how easily foreigners with superior technology (e.g. Hittites with chariots) beat them. Hikuta can't be that good

 

[Big Don]

The "hikuta punch" as detailed on the show, would, if delivered with any speed and power, likely break most of the fingers. Any system with one move this flawed is, therefore suspect.

 

[tradrockrat]

Saw the you-tube stuff -

Things I like:
Using well established concepts of neurology and physiology to develop power and speed in strikes. I've seen this before in many other systems where power and torque is developed by the push / pull concept and the driving in with the step - nothing new here at all, though I'm not sold on the "Stomp" as opposed to a good step.

Any boxers out there - don't you pull the jab back at the same time you push the cross? I do. That's all the guy was doing, just in a self defense context. Hardly a super secret of the ages

Have no idea about a "loose punch" talked about on this thread as I don't watch the MANswers show, but loose fists are nothing new either. As a kickboxer I was taught to leave my fists loose inside the gloves until the moment of impact - or rather the moment before impact - to increase speed and therefore power in the strike. Worked great as long as you made a solid fist just before hitting the opponent. Having said that - there's no way I'm gonna fight a bear...

What I don't like:
The easy fall at the end - I'm going to give the benefit of the doubt and assume that the heavily padded dude fell to illustrate the hoped for end result - not because he was actually knocked down.

Any and all claims I've been reading about involving secret societies, 2000 year old supersoldiers and all the rest of that blatant BS. Single punch kills to a bear?

Really?!?

Come on - somebody has to say it - it's a crock of a story completely unprovable and totally unrealistic.

It wouldn't stand a chance against my magenta chi balls of power...

 

[TimoS]

a friend of mine told me that his guru in northern india, pulled an entire train with his penis...

Maybe it was one of those model trains?

 

[Big Don]

As presented on the TV show, the fist stayed loose, not just until the moment of impact, but, rather the impact was affected with a loose fist. Which would likely break a number of the itty-bitty bones in the hand.

 

[theletch1]

Arrrggghhh! and this thread was soooo close to being dead too.:tantrum:

 

[Xue Sheng]

Arrrggghhh! and this thread was soooo close to being dead too.:tantrum:

Agreed:tantrum:

 

[tellner]

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[Perpetual White Belt]

Whoa, a nearly obscure geek-popculture reference! That almost makes the thread worth it... almost...