Flatlander
Grandmaster
No. In this scenario, the person injured is the attacker. If my child attacks someone and survives, they're going to have their *** handed to them when they get home....still learning said:
Here is a hypothetical situation
- Thread starter SFC JeffJ
- Start date
Brandon Fisher
Master Black Belt
I agree with just calling 911.
knifeboy
White Belt
still learning said:
First off, is the fight really over? i mean, my going back to the guy might only renew the fight if he's not completely out and is looking for revenge. But let's assume he is out (which he would be if he attacked me), i don't feel under any obligation to do more than call 911, give the operator the info, and leave, it's got nothing to do with hating, etc. i just want to leave before his friends or the cops show up.
still learning
Senior Master
Hello, After reading all the comments? ..I'm a little surprise by the answers.....One would think..most martial artist's will have more compassion even if we didn't start or want this fight..and we hurt them/injure them. Most of you didn't care about the attacter and agree about calling 911.
Your level of training/point of you life...has not reach a higher point...my opinion here...
I would suggest talking to a Priest,Your Ministers, Police Officer(who was involve in this type of fight/w injures to the bad guys),Your Master/Sensi...for their opinions, the more people of this caliper the better...Especially those of very high martial art ranks?
I could be wrong?
....being humble...showing compassion...is "God's way? and the way of the "Martial arts". ....Aloha
Your level of training/point of you life...has not reach a higher point...my opinion here...
I would suggest talking to a Priest,Your Ministers, Police Officer(who was involve in this type of fight/w injures to the bad guys),Your Master/Sensi...for their opinions, the more people of this caliper the better...Especially those of very high martial art ranks?
I could be wrong?
....being humble...showing compassion...is "God's way? and the way of the "Martial arts". ....Aloha
OP
OP
I got the idea for this thread at a self defense clinic one of the local police departments put on. The police said NOT to render assistance, but call 911 and wait for them and EMS to respond. The perpetrator could try to continue the fight if he's not out. Also, who knows what kind of blood borne pathogens he could be infected with. You should stay. Chances are if you were in a physical altercation with someone, you did leave evidence as to you identity behind. If you left and the authorities find out who you are, that could be very bad.
Jeff
Jeff
MartialIntent
Black Belt
still learning,still learning said:
Often where real-life and our largely untested compassions differ is at the point of application. Few of us might argue with the ethic behind turning the other cheek but when push comes to shove that gets relegated back into "nice in theory", and it's our primal instinct for vengeance comes to the fore.
What makes the case for forgiveness and compassion even weaker in this hypothetical case is that our attacker is not an innocent that has tripped on a manhole and fallen but rather a vindictive person, intent on harming you or your family.
For me it's an odd attitude we have in our societies where we attempt to see these sort of attackers as the victims. We try to understand them and seek justifications for their behavior in their lack of opportunities as kids.
Call 911 as JeffJ says. That's it period. For me, my one call would be to 911 - and only to ensure I exhonerate myself. I would make no call to my conscience.
Respects!
Henderson
Master Black Belt
With these assumptions made: 1) I am legally in the clear. 2) There is no doubt that the attack will violent and potentially deadly. 3) I had no choice other than to injure the assailant to maintain self-preservation.
Then....no. I would feel no compulsion to render any assistance whatsoever.
Then....no. I would feel no compulsion to render any assistance whatsoever.
still learning
Senior Master
Hello, It easy to get anger/mad/revengeful......we were brought up that way to think, of people trying to harm us.
That is why wars started. Getting back by not helping the injure? ....Will make us just like them.
In wars would you feel if wounded American soldier be kill if caught by the enemy because we kill so many of them. or not give first-aid. after all they are the enemy. What about American soldiers who shoots and wound an enemy? ..should he finish them off...because they tried to kill us. WE DO NOT KILL the wounded/both sides. Why? compassion!
This is hard to understand....but that is the way of a person in the right mind and right thoughts. Do not take a life..unless it cannot be help.
A person is injure...fight is over, you help them,time to heal things up..would you like this fight to go and on...or forgiveness given
American help Japan recover, we help Europeans recover, Irag we are trying to help recover.....or do we walk a away and not look back...?
the point is...we must learn forgiveness? or we become like them...?
Does the bible come into play here? ....Aloha
That is why wars started. Getting back by not helping the injure? ....Will make us just like them.
In wars would you feel if wounded American soldier be kill if caught by the enemy because we kill so many of them. or not give first-aid. after all they are the enemy. What about American soldiers who shoots and wound an enemy? ..should he finish them off...because they tried to kill us. WE DO NOT KILL the wounded/both sides. Why? compassion!
This is hard to understand....but that is the way of a person in the right mind and right thoughts. Do not take a life..unless it cannot be help.
A person is injure...fight is over, you help them,time to heal things up..would you like this fight to go and on...or forgiveness given
American help Japan recover, we help Europeans recover, Irag we are trying to help recover.....or do we walk a away and not look back...?
the point is...we must learn forgiveness? or we become like them...?
Does the bible come into play here? ....Aloha
MartialIntent
Black Belt
still learning,still learning said:
Personally I believe very few normal civilians would have any desire to kill, however in the situation where someone has attempted to attack and damage you, it's seems somewhat contradictory to seriously injure them with your right hand and then with your left hand, administer aid to them as they lie on the ground [where you put them].
Either put them down with intent, mean it in your heart and don't get cold feet on the follow-through.
-OR-
Do not engage in any confrontation whatsoever, and willingly submit to their attack upon you, allow them to take your purse, stab you, kidnap you, rape you or kill you.
I wouldn't wish to bring religion to this - it's just unfortunate that the general view in society is that in this hypothetical situation we as innocent folk going about our business can, by an event for which we had no desire, become the bad guy.
Respects!
BlackCatBonz
Master Black Belt
knifeboy said:
so you would rather run away?
OP
OP
still learning,
I have to say, the more I think about your references to WWII and the current foray into Iraq, the more I think they are faulty analogies. Those were more or less designed plans that were not carried out by the men who did the fighting.
On the tactical level, you won't find many infantrymen of any nationality that would take measures to save wounded enemy combatants. That's what medics are for.
Like the book "Stong of Defense" (I'm very glad you turned me onto that) says, if attacked, you have to HATE your attacker. Do you think you'd be able to just shut that emotion off to render assistance to the person who just violated your rights in such a gross, violent manner?
Jeff
I have to say, the more I think about your references to WWII and the current foray into Iraq, the more I think they are faulty analogies. Those were more or less designed plans that were not carried out by the men who did the fighting.
On the tactical level, you won't find many infantrymen of any nationality that would take measures to save wounded enemy combatants. That's what medics are for.
Like the book "Stong of Defense" (I'm very glad you turned me onto that) says, if attacked, you have to HATE your attacker. Do you think you'd be able to just shut that emotion off to render assistance to the person who just violated your rights in such a gross, violent manner?
Jeff
KenpoTex
Senior Master
I don't invest that much emotion into the situation. To me someone who has chosen to threaten your safety and/or life to achieve their goals is no different than a rabid dog. They're really not worth that much consideration. If you're threatened, deal with it and move on.still learning said:
Do you not watch the news? If we wound an Iraqi terrorist, they end up receiving medical treatment and care. If our guys are unlucky enough to fall into their hands, they end up being beheaded or dragged through the streets. The argument you're attempting to make in this case has no merit.still learning said:
Once again...It's NOT a fight. We're not talking about a situation where you have been involved in a simple fistfight, or where you have merely been wronged or insulted. Forgiveness doesn't enter in to the situation. As I said before, there's no reason to dwell on it after it happens. I'm not going to walk around harboring seeds of resentment and hatred after it's over. At the same time, I could really care less about the fate of someone who would try to take my life or that of someone whom I felt a duty to protect. After successfully defending myself, I am NOT going to risk compromising my safety to give them any sort of aid beyond calling 911 (which is more than what we could expect from them).still learning said:
I have to agree with this statement. if the attacker was threatening my life and or safety I do not know if I would help him when he was down. i certianly would no if i knew he would live.
Calling 911 is an option so is just getting the hell out of there if there where no witnesses
still learning
Senior Master
Hello, Thank-you for your answers. For my self...if someone attacks me and try to kill me...and I was able to defend and injure the attacker....after sitution awareness...feeling no possiblibility of fighting back...I would help that person.
It if was you who I injure..not knowing you...I would still help. We have no right to take a life..evening if you try to take mines. The fight is over..time to heal and forgive.
This is me...most people do not understand the thinking here...that is OK...I was brought up different than most. The Martial arts has change me and the way I do see things.
Each person has the right to choose what they want to do here....is it right or wrong.?..depends on how you were brought up.
Hoping that you will see things a little different from the norm? ...We do not want to behave the same way as those who attack us. Compassion is not easy,...to forgive is not easy..to move on..is not easy..life is not fair .........Aloha
It if was you who I injure..not knowing you...I would still help. We have no right to take a life..evening if you try to take mines. The fight is over..time to heal and forgive.
This is me...most people do not understand the thinking here...that is OK...I was brought up different than most. The Martial arts has change me and the way I do see things.
Each person has the right to choose what they want to do here....is it right or wrong.?..depends on how you were brought up.
Hoping that you will see things a little different from the norm? ...We do not want to behave the same way as those who attack us. Compassion is not easy,...to forgive is not easy..to move on..is not easy..life is not fair .........Aloha
OP
OP
still learning said:
Calling 911 is helping. And I have to disagree with you about right and wrong having to do with how you were brought up. I believe right and wrong are objective, not subjective.
Compassion is easy, when the person deserves it. A violent criminal neither deserves it nor will receive it from me.
Jeff
still learning
Senior Master
Hello, Only in Amercia the prisoners (bad guys) get so much attention, and rights. At the avg: cost of $32,000 per year per prisoner, keep them lock -up.
With aveage of 70% release, recommit crimes again and again..
Still when someone is injure....we must help here...If you call 911...means you care...you do not have to do more....Aloha
With aveage of 70% release, recommit crimes again and again..
Still when someone is injure....we must help here...If you call 911...means you care...you do not have to do more....Aloha
BlackCatBonz
Master Black Belt
so, I was in a fight with someone who attacked me, the attacking party was injured badly during the fight.........do I run away and leave Mr. A-hole to fight another day, or do I call the police and EMS and make sure he stands trial and gets what is coming to him in a court of law?
I will take my chances with a court of law.......next time it may be someone defenseless that becomes the object of their aggression.
I will take my chances with a court of law.......next time it may be someone defenseless that becomes the object of their aggression.
KenpoTex
Senior Master
If that's what you believe and that belief "works" for you, more power to you. However, when you make statements like "We have no right to take a life..even if you try to take mine" you are making a "blanket" statment and trying to impose your own morality on others.still learning said:
1. I think those of us that are against rendering aid DO think a little different than the "norm." The popular "PC" attitude is that we shouldn't resist or use force even if we are threatened.still learning said:
2. We're not behaving the same way as those who attacked us...We didn't attack them.
3. Compassion and Forgiveness...see my previous post.
4. Moving on IS easy. In fact, that's exactly what most of us are proposing...put him down and MOVE ON! Preferably as fast as possible (yes, I'm being facetious...).
No, I wouldn't call 911 'cause I care. I'd do it to cover my butt.still learning said:
And, if we don't have to do more, then what the heck have we been debating? Most of us agree that we'd call 911 for the scumbag.
